Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bluehillside Retd. on December 28, 2020, 12:03:13 PM
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/28/western-isles-council-rejects-official-sex-ed-in-favour-of-catholic-teaching
Depressing.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/28/western-isles-council-rejects-official-sex-ed-in-favour-of-catholic-teaching
Depressing.
That is shocking, :o religion should NEVER interfere with council business. Sex education is an import subject and be part of all children's curriculum just like maths, for instance.
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What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?
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What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?
I have NO respect for a religion, which disapproves of children having sex education. >:(
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Nye,
What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?
You can respect the rights of other people to have religion and culture without respecting the application of the religion and culture itself. Taliban-era Afghanistan used to behead people in football stadia - did you respect their religion and culture about that? Why not? (And no, I'm not of course comparing that with replacing secular, evidence-based teaching with religious superstitionism but the principle is the same - if you think religions and cultures should be immune from criticism because they are religions and cultures, then you can't close that door only when it happens to suit you).
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What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?
When you respect religion you end up with stupidity like not teaching teenagers about contraception.
I'm not going to comment about the rightness or wrongness of this particular instance because I don't know what the official curriculum is and it may have been influenced by ideology (just not religious ideology) as much as the Catholic one.
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Nye,
You can respect the rights of other people to have religion and culture without respecting the application of the religion and culture itself. Taliban-era Afghanistan used to behead people in football stadia - did you respect their religion and culture about that? Why not? (And no, I'm not of course comparing that with replacing secular, evidence-based teaching with religious superstitionism but the principle is the same - if you think religions and cultures should be immune from criticism because they are religions and cultures, then you can't close that door only when it happens to suit you).
"Logical-conclusion" arguments like that are only used by people who've run out of real arguments. I believe in respecting beliefs I don't agree with up to a point, but not beyond it. That is a perfectly logical position.
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It isn't logical to respect a belief, which can cause harm to others! ::)
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Nye,
"Logical-conclusion" arguments like that are only used by people who've run out of real arguments.
What on earth is that even meant to mean? “Logical-conclusion” is what sound arguments are supposed to entail. What other sort did you have in mind that would be more productive?
I believe in respecting beliefs I don't agree with up to a point, but not beyond it. That is a perfectly logical position.
No it isn’t. You asked “…how about respecting other people's religion and culture?”. That’s a binary question – either religion and culture should be respected because they are religion and culture or they shouldn’t. Why on earth though should religion and culture (as opposed to the right to have them) be respected ipso facto rather than evaluated on their merits?
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When you respect religion you end up with stupidity like not teaching teenagers about contraception.
I'm not going to comment about the rightness or wrongness of this particular instance because I don't know what the official curriculum is and it may have been influenced by ideology (just not religious ideology) as much as the Catholic one.
Link to the curriculum
https://rshp.scot/about-the-resource/#viewsonrshp
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Nye,
What on earth is that even meant to mean? “Logical-conclusion” is what sound arguments are supposed to entail. What other sort did you have in mind that would be more productive?
No it isn’t. You asked “…how about respecting other people's religion and culture?”. That’s a binary question – religion and culture should be respected because they are religion and culture or they shouldn’t. Why on earth though should religion and culture (as opposed to the right to have them) be respected ipso facto rather than evaluated on their merits?
Pseudo-intellectual word-salad. You know perfectly well what I mean by "logical-conclusion" arguments: "If you're a socialist, the logical conclusion is that you approve of Stalin's mass murders", or "If you're a conservative, you must support the abolition of the welfare state, and letting the unemployed starve, because that's the logical conclusion". I mean the phrase as used by idiots as a pseudo-counter-argument. It's related to, or perhaps a particular case of, the slippery slope fallacy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope)
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What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?
Just to point out that a number of the Islands are very largely RCC
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Just to point out that a number of the Islands are very largely RCC
Fair enough. I don't think much of the RCC either, but its views should be respected up to a point (an idea that former azure slope seems unable to understand). Rosie is committing the equivocation fallacy: I was not using the word "respect" with the emotional luggage she gives it.
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Stevie boy is in WUM mode. ::)
Respect, also called esteem, is a positive feeling or action shown towards someone or something considered important, or held in high esteem or regard. It conveys a sense of admiration for good or valuable qualities.
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Nye,
Pseudo-intellectual word-salad. You know perfectly well what I mean by "logical-conclusion" arguments: "If you're a socialist, the logical conclusion is that you approve of Stalin's mass murders", or "If you're a conservative, you must support the abolition of the welfare state, and letting the unemployed starve, because that's the logical conclusion". I mean the phrase as used by idiots as a pseudo-counter-argument. It's related to, or perhaps a particular case of, the slippery slope fallacy.
Actually I had no idea what you meant by it, and it’s not the slippery slope fallacy either. The slippery slope fallacy is the argument that a relatively uncontroversial position would be a first step towards a much worse one. In this case, to be a slippery slope I would have had to have said something like, “if you accept the Western Isles decision that’s the first step toward executing people in football stadia”. That’s not what I said at all though – what I actually said was that, if you think culture and religion should be respected just because they are culture and religion, then that’s an all or nothing position to take. If what you really intended though was something like, “I think the merits of the Western Isles arguments justify the position they’ve taken” I’d have disagreed with you about that but that would have been a different argument to the one you actually attempted.
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Stevie boy is in WUM mode. ::)
Respect, also called esteem, is a positive feeling or action shown towards someone or something considered important, or held in high esteem or regard. It conveys a sense of admiration for good or valuable qualities.
I've no idea what WUM mode is, but please note definition 1b of the verb, here. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/respect) "to refrain from interfering with"
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Nye,
Fair enough. I don't think much of the RCC either, but its views should be respected up to a point (an idea that former azure slope seems unable to understand).
I understood it better than you did, and you didn't mention the "up to a point" part at all in your first reply. QED.
Rosie is committing the equivocation fallacy: I was not using the word "respect" with the emotional luggage she gives it.
How was anyone to know how you intended it absent qualification?
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Nye,
I've no idea what WUM mode is, but please note definition 1b of the verb, here. "to refrain from interfering with"
That’s not what you actually said though. What you said was, “What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?”
Criticising isn’t “interfering with” anything, it’s just fair comment.
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Nye,
Actually I had no idea what you meant by it, and it’s not the slippery slope fallacy either. The slippery slope fallacy is the argument that a relatively uncontroversial position would be a first step towards a much worse one. In this case, to be a slippery slope I would have had to have said something like, “if you accept the Western Isles decision that’s the first step toward executing people in football stadia”. That’s not what I said at all though – what I actually said was that, if you think culture and religion should be respected just because they are culture and religion, then that’s an all or nothing position to take. If what you really intended though was something like, “I think the merits of the Western Isles arguments justify the position they’ve taken” I’d have disagreed with you about that but that would have been a different argument to the one you actually attempted.
It is, as I said, "related to, or perhaps a particular case of," the slippery-slope fallacy, not that it was. I did not state an all-or-nothing position either: I suggested that religion and culture should be respected, but did not suggest that that had no limits. Obviously, we can't tolerate people being beheaded for believing the wrong things, or practices such as fgm. Nor should we allow the Western Isles to make homosexual acts illegal, if they tried to. Adopting a conservative-Christian school curriculum is another matter, though.
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Nye,
That’s not what you actually said though. What you said was, “What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?”
Criticising isn’t “interfering with” anything, it’s just fair comment.
I was referring to LR's use of the equivocation fallacy, by using the word "respect" in a different sense from that which I employed.
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Nye,
It is, as I said, "related to, or perhaps a particular case of," the slippery-slope fallacy, not that it was.
It’s neither, for the reasons I explained.
I did not state an all-or-nothing position either: I suggested that religion and culture should be respected, but did not suggest that that had no limits.
Yes you did. Again: “What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?” There’s no mention there of limits – just the implication that “other people's religion and culture” should be “respected” because they are “other people's religion and culture”.
Obviously, we can't tolerate people being beheaded for believing the wrong things, or practices such as fgm. Nor should we allow the Western Isles to make homosexual acts illegal, if they tried to. Adopting a conservative-Christian school curriculum is another matter, though.
Now you are moving to an argument of degree rather than kind. Why would you say that “adopting a conservative-Christian school curriculum” is fine though – because of its merits, or because it happens to be the religion and culture of the people enacting it?
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Nye,
I was referring to LR's use of the equivocation fallacy, by using the word "respect" in a different sense from that which I employed.
1. So do you now accept that no-one was "interfering" with anything given your silence on the matter?
2. There was no equivocation fallacy. An equivocation fallacy would be something like, "Laws imply law makers. There are laws in nature. Therefore there must be a cosmic law maker." What you did was to use the unqualified term "respect", and then complain that someone had taken it to mean something you hadn't intended but were silent about.
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Bollocks. I'm not rising to your logic-chopping, fallacy-hunting, hair-splitting bait again, like I did on my "Omnipotence" thread a year or so ago, which you deliberately and systematically sabotaged, for which I got suspended for some weeks - and yes, it does still rankle, and no, I am not admitting that you're right.
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Nye,
Bollocks. I'm not rising to your logic-chopping, fallacy-hunting, hair-splitting bait again,...
I have done none of those things.
...like I did on my "Omnipotence" thread a year or so ago, which you deliberately and systematically sabotaged, for which I got suspended for some weeks - and yes, it does still rankle, and no, I am not admitting that you're right.
I have never sabotaged anything. If you were suspended then it would have been for your behaviour here, not mine.
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There was no equivocation fallacy. An equivocation fallacy would be something like, "Laws imply law makers. There are laws in nature. Therefore there must be a cosmic law maker." What you did was to use the unqualified term "respect", and then complain that someone had taken it to mean something you hadn't intended but were silent about.
It should be bloody obvious to anyone with half a brain and who isn't determined to misunderstand that I didn't mean "respect" in the value-added sense.
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It isn't obvious at all. ::)
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I knew the place well back in the day: I was a regular visitor to the hospital in Stornoway as part of my job, including being stuck there on a Sunday because at the time (late 1990's I think) there were no scheduled Sunday flights in or out of Stornoway and my planned flight on the Saturday was cancelled (due to fog iirc). So I deciding that I'd just go in to the hospital and do some work on the Sunday, since everything was closed (inc. the bookies), only to be told when that "the LDOS (Lord's Day Observance Society)' might not approve", which I thought just plain odd since I wasn't interfering with anyone's religious activities by deciding to sit in an office all by myself and work.
The Western Isles is very different when it comes to religion, and is a bit of a culture shock to the outsider.
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That is shocking, :o religion should NEVER interfere with council business. Sex education is an import subject and be part of all children's curriculum just like maths, for instance.
Er.....you don't know too much about the Erstern Isles, then?
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I knew the place well back in the day: I was a regular visitor to the hospital in Stornoway as part of my job, including being stuck there on a Sunday because at the time (late 1990's I think) there were no scheduled Sunday flights in or out of Stornoway and my planned flight on the Saturday was cancelled (due to fog iirc). So I deciding that I'd just go in to the hospital and do some work on the Sunday, since everything was closed (inc. the bookies), only to be told when that "the LDOS (Lord's Day Observance Society)' might not approve", which I thought just plain odd since I wasn't interfering with anyone's religious activities by deciding to sit in an office all by myself and work.
The Western Isles is very different when it comes to religion, and is a bit of a culture shock to the outsider.
I've spent many months out there - though mainly on Iona and Mull.
The Iona Community is very different to the average Wee Free concept of religion, and I'm still an associate member.
I recall taking an American and an Aussie to Lewis one weekend.....the culture shock when they came up against the Sabbath was a wonder to behold.
Mind you; it was on Lewis where I first tasted genuine moonshine one Saturday night.
After that, I was not so startled by the lack of anything resembling activity on the Sabbath.....
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Er.....you don't know too much about the Western Isles, then?
When has lack of knowledge ever stopped LR holding a strong and extreme opinion?
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Nye,
When has lack of knowledge ever stopped LR holding a strong and extreme opinion?
Not here she hasn't.
Anyway, any clarity yet on whether in your view we should "respect" the decision in the Western Isles because that's their culture/religion, or whether instead it's legitimate to criticise it as a retrograde step that potentially at least could detrimentally deny pupils there the same knowledge and reasoning that's afforded to other pupils in the UK?
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Nye,
Not here she hasn't.
Anyway, any clarity yet on whether in your view we should respect the decision in the Western Isles because that's their culture/religion, or whether instead it's legitimate to criticise it as a retrograde step that potentially at least denies children there the same knowledge and reasoning that's afforded to other pupils around the UK?
Thanks Blue. :) I don't see anything extreme about criticising a council for upholding extreme RCC views on sex education.
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Thanks Blue. :) I don't see anything extreme about criticising a council for upholding extreme RCC views on sex education.
Well, it shows that the concept of sectarianism has not polluted the islands, at least.
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Well, it shows that the concept of sectarianism has not polluted the islands, at least.
Ha! As you know it has its own versions
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Does seem backward in a way but depends on how forcefully it is implemented. If it is just a background sort of teaching it won't be a lot different to how many of us were taught sex ed. at school. I was taught (at school) apart from the bilge, about sex within marriage even tho' everyone knew it happened outside marriage. For all that it was useful & informative. I had a good mother and grandmother who were able to fill in the blanks, not all do.
What is important is how parents teach their children at home in addition to the school lessons.
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Ha! As you know it has its own versions
Oh, yes.....the Kirk is the Kirk, and the Wee Freese think it's an abomination.......
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Oh, yes.....the Kirk is the Kirk, and the Wee Freese think it's an abomination.......
Time for Emo Philips great joke
"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over"
And also diagram of the splits
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Churches_of_Scotland_timeline.png
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I have a friend who relocated from Hampshire to the Western Isles and ended up marrying the local GP. They were regularly bullied by the Sunday observance crowd, even to the extent of being chastised for hanging out washing on a Sunday.
Anyhow my friend's wife wasn't someone to be messed with. She basically asked whether these people thought that if they were seriously ill whether she, as a GP, should come and treat them on a Sunday. Of course they replied, that's your job. Her response, well if you insist I treat you on a Sunday, I insist that I should be able to put out washing on Sunday if I choose. The complaining died down after that.
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Time for Emo Philips great joke
"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over"
And also diagram of the splits
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Churches_of_Scotland_timeline.png
The repost is the one about a Lewis man who was stranded on a desert island for many years.
On being found, his rescuers noted that he had constructed a house, and two churches.
"Why two churches", they asked.
"Ach, one is where I go to pray on the Sabbath, and the other is the one I will never visit."
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I have a friend who relocated from Hampshire to the Western Isles and ended up marrying the local GP. They were regularly bullied by the Sunday observance crowd, even to the extent of being chastised for hanging out washing on a Sunday.
Anyhow my friend's wife wasn't someone to be messed with. She basically asked whether these people thought that if they were seriously ill whether she, as a GP, should come and treat them on a Sunday. Of course they replied, that's your job. Her response, well if you insist I treat you on a Sunday, I insist that I should be able to put out washing on Sunday if I choose. The complaining died down after that.
Good for them. :)
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The Western Isles is very different when it comes to religion, and is a bit of a culture shock to the outsider.
True although there are some aspects that are pretty similar.
First the differences - the levels of religious observance is higher, by far, than anywhere else in the UK I imagine. Latest figures suggest over 40% of the population attend church - the UK and Scottish figures are about 7%. But this means that the majority, even in the western isles aren't church-goers, so the authorities who attempt to impose a strictly religious rules are doing so from a minority position, albeit one close to a majority.
Now the similarly - church attendance in the western isles is on the decline, just as it is across the UK:
http://www.hebrides-news.com/decline-in-church-attendance-16417.html
So the sunday observance brigade are fighting a rear-guard and ultimately losing battle as the island, just like the rest of the UK, become increasingly secular. They are just a few decades behind the rest of the country.
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Good for them. :)
Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration. Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.
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It isn't obvious at all. ::)
I did say "to anyone with half a brain"...
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Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration. Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.
Surely you are just disagreeing what 'within reason' means? Also the hanging out of washing on a Sunday is not against the law, even in the Western Isles.
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Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason.
Where did I say that she was an outsider - I didn't. My friend was from Hampshire, he relocated to the Uists, he met his wife, the GP, there.
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Where did I say that she was an outsider - I didn't. My friend was from Hampshire, he relocated to the Uists, he met his wife, the GP, there.
Sorry - read it carelessly. I thought she was the one from Hampshire.
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Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration.
Completely inappropriate comparison - in Saudi there are laws that prohibit drinking and anyone will be expected to abide by the laws of the land. In the Uists there are no laws that prohibit hanging washing on the line - if someone does this they aren't breaking any rules, merely not pandering to the extreme views of a religious minority on the islands.
Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.
The strict sabbatarians can do what they want. What they cannot do - noting they aren't even a majority - is insist that others who aren't strict sabbatarians follow their practice.
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Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration. Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.
There is another point.
Unlike Saudi these communities desperately need outsiders - the communities would simply die on their feet without people relocating to the islands and bringing essential skills with them. As with many rural communities young people leave, often initially for educational reasons, and never return. The only way the communities will remain viable is for those people who leave to be replaced by 'outsiders' joining. If you make those outsiders (bringing essential skills) feel like pariahs unless they conform to bizarre and extreme religious practices, well guess what - they wont come. And then you wont just have no GP on a Sunday, but no GP at all.
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Nye,
Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol. I drink, and think prohibition is oppressive, but if I went to Saudi Arabia, I'd abide by the rules, and be teetotal for the duration. Similarly with the strict sabbatarianism of the Western Isles - and her smart-arse reply proves nothing: the strictest sabbatarians recognise the need for some work to be done on Sunday, just nothing unnecessary.
You seem confused still. On the one hand you tell us we should “respect” the culture and religion of other people, but then you add qualifiers like “within reason” and “unnecessary”. Who though gets to decide what’s reasonable and what’s unnecessary?
I happen to think that the decision in the Western Isles is not “within reason”, and is “unnecessary”. On paper at least it’s a retrograde step, and I see nothing wrong explaining why if I want to. Who knows – maybe if enough people did that it would provide support to the councillors who object to it, and cause those who support it to think again. That’s what free speech can do.
What in your view would be wrong if I were to do that?
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Nye,
You seem confused still. On the one hand you tell us we should “respect” the culture and religion of other people, but then you add qualifiers like “within reason” and “unnecessary”. Who though gets to decide what’s reasonable and what’s unnecessary?
I happen to think that the decision in the Western Isles is not “within reason”, and is “unnecessary”. On paper at least it’s a retrograde step, and I see nothing wrong explaining why if I want to. Who knows – maybe if enough people did that it would provide support to the councillors who object to it, and cause those who support it to think again. That’s what free speech can do.
What in your view would be wrong if I were to do that?
I think there is a highly patriarchal and, in effect, bullying attitude going on up there. Doesn't surprise me at all that every member of the council is male - how on earth can that happen in this day and age, unless women are actively discouraged (to say the least) from engaging in active political life where they might just change things.
Now I know this is an anecdote from about 20 years ago, but my friend (he used to be a debt collector if you understand the relevance) but became a chimney sweep and general odd job man when he relocated to South Uist. Now if you know the islands you'll know that North Uist is wee free, South Uist and Barra are catholic - so there is a kind of front line between the sunday observance crowd to the north and the much more relaxed catholics to the south. Now my friend was told in no uncertain terms that if his van was seen on North Uist on a Sunday (not necessarily working just his van seen there) that he would never work again on North Uist. This was no idle threat if you understand my meaning and one that he complied with despite that fact that in his earlier life his job effectively involved sticking his foot in the door of people in debt and threatening them if they didn't pay.
I suspect things have softened now as the wee frees are slowly losing their grip, but back then it was effectively like the mafia.
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Nye,
Not good for them. If an outsider goes to live in a different culture, they abide by the culture's rules, within reason. Many Westerners go to work in Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we occasionally hear of them being arrested for drinking alcohol…
The analogy doesn’t work. If I intended to send my children to schools in the Western Isles but refused to let them comply with the local education policy then you’d at least have a comparator in principle. That’s not the case though – I’m just saying that I think the policy is a bad one, which (ironically) is analogous to you saying that you think some of the rules in Saudi are bad ones too.
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Hi Prof,
I think there is a highly patriarchal and, in effect, bullying attitude going on up there. Doesn't surprise me at all that every member of the council is male - how on earth can that happen in this day and age, unless women are actively discouraged (to say the least) from engaging in active political life where they might just change things.
Now I know this is an anecdote from about 20 years ago, but my friend (he used to be a debt collector if you understand the relevance) but became a chimney sweep and general odd job man when he relocated to South Uist. Now if you know the islands you'll know that North Uist is wee free, South Uist and Barra are catholic - so there is a kind of front line between the sunday observance crowd to the north and the much more relaxed catholics to the south. Now my friend was told in no uncertain terms that if his van was seen on North Uist on a Sunday (not necessarily working just his van seen there) that he would never work again on North Uist. This was no idle threat if you understand my meaning and one that he complied with despite that fact that in his earlier life his job effectively involved sticking his foot in the door of people in debt and threatening them if they didn't pay.
I suspect things have softened now as the wee frees are slowly losing their grip, but back then it was effectively like the mafia.
Thanks for the story – which sounds frankly sinister. Not sure why, but it reminded me a bit of the Wicker Man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man
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I did say "to anyone with half a brain"...
Oh dear I am so sorry you only have half a brain that is very sad! :P ;D
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Hi Prof,
Thanks for the story – which sounds frankly sinister.
Oh yes - he knew when he was being threatened.
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Not sure why, but it reminded me a bit of the Wicker Man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man
Indeed - but that was kind of the other way around - the puritan christian in the Wicker man was the outsider coming into a pagan culture and trying to force the local to adopt his puritan christian ways. Didn't turn out too well for him though ;)
Although the Wicker man was supposed to have been set in the outer isles it was actually filmed in Galloway, near where my parents lived. With the film attaining cult status some of the locations of various scenes became tourist attraction for that reason.
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Prof,
Oh yes - he knew when he was being threatened.
Still, just a long as it was done in the name of Jesus eh?...
Indeed - but that was kind of the other way around - the puritan christian in the Wicker man was the outsider coming into a pagan culture and trying to force the local to adopt his puritan christian ways. Didn't turn out too well for him though
I know, but the phenomenon was reminiscent of the film – a closed, inward-looking, intolerant community willing to go to any lengths etc. What the belief system actually happened to be is a secondary matter (see above).
Incidentally, I also like that if you take all the “ds” out of “Edward Woodward” you get “Ewar Woowar” ;)
Although the Wicker man was supposed to have been set in the outer isles it was actually filmed in Galloway, near where my parents lived. With the film attaining cult status some of the locations of various scenes became tourist attraction for that reason.
Is that right? I first saw the film as a teenager and remember being terrified by the oddness of it.
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Prof,
Still, just a long as it was done in the name of Jesus eh?...
....
My ex's mother was from Lewis, and we often travelled with her to stay at Christmas and New Year. One time we were at one of her cousin's for dinner, and towards the end of the meal he turned to her and said 'Kathy, you know I love you but you are going to spend eternity burning in the fires of Hell'
I should also note that there is a streak of wildness in the culture which has more 'pagan' aspects than are usually portrayed. Many on the island behave 'scandalously' but in mid life they 'get the cuirm', and become pillars of the church.
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My ex's mother was from Lewis, and we often travelled with her to stay at Christmas and New Year. One time we were at one of her cousin's for dinner, and towards the end of the meal he turned to her and said 'Kathy, you know I love you but you are going to spend eternity burning in the fires of Hell'
I should also note that there is a streak of wildness in the culture which has more 'pagan' aspects than are usually portrayed. Many on the island behave 'scandalously' but in mid life they 'get the cuirm', and become pillars of the church.
Being 'pillars of the church' doesn't stop people behaving badly. As I have mentioned many times the Pastor of the pentecostal church I attended as a kid banged on about the fires of hell for unbelievers, but that didn't stop him touching me inappropriately when I was 14! >:(
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True although there are some aspects that are pretty similar. First the differences - the levels of religious observance is higher, by far, than anywhere else in the UK I imagine. Latest figures suggest over 40% of the population attend church - the UK and Scottish figures are about 7%. But this means that the majority, even in the western isles aren't church-goers, so the authorities who attempt to impose a strictly religious rules are doing so from a minority position, albeit one close to a majority. Now the similarly - church attendance in the western isles is on the decline, just as it is across the UK: http://www.hebrides-news.com/decline-in-church-attendance-16417.html So the sunday observance brigade are fighting a rear-guard and ultimately losing battle as the island, just like the rest of the UK, become increasingly secular. They are just a few decades behind the rest of the country.
For all that, I'd be saddened if the Western Isles became too 'british'. There's an atmosphere there, a joy probably born of hardship and isolation which is hard to find anywhere else. I've spent many an hour in a ceilidh in Barra, or Lewis, Harris or the Uists, and each time, though the character of the isles, and indeed the religion, vary, still the sense of place is palpable. Of course, I always return to my beloved Iona, the 'thin place', as George McLeod called it, which manages to be inclusive yet special, and still shines bright in the firmament. I was actually supposed to be there now - having been planning to spend six weeks over winter, but the best laid plans, I suppose. Still, there's aye Easter.
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For all that, I'd be saddened if the Western Isles became too 'british'. There's an atmosphere there, a joy probably born of hardship and isolation which is hard to find anywhere else. I've spent many an hour in a ceilidh in Barra, or Lewis, Harris or the Uists, and each time, though the character of the isles, and indeed the religion, vary, still the sense of place is palpable. Of course, I always return to my beloved Iona, the 'thin place', as George McLeod called it, which manages to be inclusive yet special, and still shines bright in the firmament. I was actually supposed to be there now - having been planning to spend six weeks over winter, but the best laid plans, I suppose. Still, there's aye Easter.
I agree that the western isles have an incredibly distinctive feel, way beyond the religious element. That feeling of remoteness and a world beyond the world. But I'm not convinced this has much to do with religion rather than the necessary isolation and need to be self contained of the place. I actually think that the special-ness of the place can only be preserved by the communities evolving.
If you look at the article I linked to apart from the drop in church attendance another thing you may notice is that the population is slowly dwindling. This is because many young people leave for education and/or careers and never return. Without new people permanently relocating to the isles the population and its distinctiveness will be gone in the coming decades. And anyone who relocates permanently is likely to be drawn to that distinctive culture of isolation and self-reliance so will probably preserve the culture. The last thing you want to do is drive these critical people away due to bizarre and archaic religious observance that isn't even a majority pursuit, given that 3 in 5 people don't even attend church (let alone abide by strict Sunday observance rules).
So the real threat to the culture, and frankly survival of the place, in my view is dogmatic insistence of religious observance which drives away both the young people of the island and also those who might otherwise choose to permanently relocate.
Iona is also an incredible special place - but its feel is completely different to the western isles and is much more overtly religious/spiritual in its specialness.
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I agree that the western isles have an incredibly distinctive feel, way beyond the religious element. That feeling of remoteness and a world beyond the world. But I'm not convinced this has much to do with religion rather than the necessary isolation and need to be self contained of the place. I actually think that the special-ness of the place can only be preserved by the communities evolving. If you look at the article I linked to apart from the drop in church attendance another thing you may notice is that the population is slowly dwindling. This is because many young people leave for education and/or careers and never return. Without new people permanently relocating to the isles the population and its distinctiveness will be gone in the coming decades. And anyone who relocates permanently is likely to be drawn to that distinctive culture of isolation and self-reliance so will probably preserve the culture. The last thing you want to do is drive these critical people away due to bizarre and archaic religious observance that isn't even a majority pursuit, given that 3 in 5 people don't even attend church (let alone abide by strict Sunday observance rules). So the real threat to the culture, and frankly survival of the place, in my view is dogmatic insistence of religious observance which drives away both the young people of the island and also those who might otherwise choose to permanently relocate. Iona is also an incredible special place - but its feel is completely different to the western isles and is much more overtly religious/spiritual in its specialness.
Yet the religious nature of Iona could be described as 'practical ecumenism'. The programme for the six weeks I should have spent there was to include Christ in diversity. Inclusive yet exclusive; accepting without judgement. Disability and practical service. Walking a tightrope: Christ in the gutter. These, and other topics, would be followed up in the coming months with seminars at the Glasgow HQ, plus various assignments in the field. We're cobbling together something similar for Easter. Yes, Iona IS spiritual.....but sitting on your bum praying is only part of it, and not a big part at that.
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Yet the religious nature of Iona could be described as 'practical ecumenism'. The programme for the six weeks I should have spent there was to include Christ in diversity. Inclusive yet exclusive; accepting without judgement. Disability and practical service. Walking a tightrope: Christ in the gutter. These, and other topics, would be followed up in the coming months with seminars at the Glasgow HQ, plus various assignments in the field. We're cobbling together something similar for Easter. Yes, Iona IS spiritual.....but sitting on your bum praying is only part of it, and not a big part at that.
I suspect the impact that Iona has on an individual is just that ... individual.
I've only visited a couple of times and never stayed over. My feeling was of a sanctuary (and I don't really mean that in a religious sense). It's impact on me was of a small but beautiful abbey utterly dominated by the surrounding scenery and therefore a real connection between the natural and the man made. I've spoken in the past of my 'wanting' to believe in my late teens/early 20s and that was when I visited. And Iona is perhaps the place that came closest to making me belief - but ultimately the experience was one of closeness to nature and for me (I fully understand others will feel differently) thoughts of a man-made god and some person executed 2000 years ago would have diminished, not enhanced, my feelings at Iona.
But the main thread is about the western isles, not Iona - they are completely different places. The latter defined pretty well exclusively by the religious of its abbey, the former a normal 'warts and all' community much like any others, albeit with a different feel due to its remoteness.
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I suspect the impact that Iona has on an individual is just that ... individual. I've only visited a couple of times and never stayed over. My feeling was of a sanctuary (and I don't really mean that in a religious sense). It's impact on me was of a small but beautiful abbey utterly dominated by the surrounding scenery and therefore a real connection between the natural and the man made. I've spoken in the past of my 'wanting' to believe in my late teens/early 20s and that was when I visited. And Iona is perhaps the place that came closest to making me belief - but ultimately the experience was one of closeness to nature and for me (I fully understand others will feel differently) thoughts of a man-made god and some person executed 2000 years ago would have diminished, not enhanced, my feelings at Iona. But the main thread is about the western isles, not Iona - they are completely different places. The latter defined pretty well exclusively by the religious of its abbey, the former a normal 'warts and all' community much like any others, albeit with a different feel due to its remoteness.
It's the Iona Community thing with me. I'm still an associate member, and try to keep the 'rule' every day, if I can. I used to be a full time member - too many years ago to try to get my head round. I bought into George McLeod's vision of the island as a centre for activists, both spiritual and community. When we are engaged in a project, we don't ram faith down folks throats - it gets up their noses in any case; neither do we hide our faith. We try to be active in the area of "The least, the last and the lost' as McLeod put it; my first stint was as a volunteer in a 'cold turkey' rehab house in Ayr. Yes, the sense of Spirit pervades the island, but it should engender a sense of purpose. One of the many things which delights me is that, when we are in community, we abandon rank, style and denomination. You can be washing dishes besides a Southern Baptist pastor, or peeling spuds with a Roman Catholic priest on one side, and a Kirk minister on the other - with not a dog collar in sight. Just as Columcille used the place, not as a retreat from the world, but as the centrepiece of a network for mission, the community uses the island both as a place for spiritual refreshment...and not only the golden type, though, hey....there's that as well....but as a launch pad for its work.
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It's the Iona Community thing with me. I'm still an associate member, and try to keep the 'rule' every day, if I can. I used to be a full time member - too many years ago to try to get my head round. I bought into George McLeod's vision of the island as a centre for activists, both spiritual and community. When we are engaged in a project, we don't ram faith down folks throats - it gets up their noses in any case; neither do we hide our faith. We try to be active in the area of "The least, the last and the lost' as McLeod put it; my first stint was as a volunteer in a 'cold turkey' rehab house in Ayr. Yes, the sense of Spirit pervades the island, but it should engender a sense of purpose. One of the many things which delights me is that, when we are in community, we abandon rank, style and denomination. You can be washing dishes besides a Southern Baptist pastor, or peeling spuds with a Roman Catholic priest on one side, and a Kirk minister on the other - with not a dog collar in sight. Just as Columcille used the place, not as a retreat from the world, but as the centrepiece of a network for mission, the community uses the island both as a place for spiritual refreshment...and not only the golden type, though, hey....there's that as well....but as a launch pad for its work.
Sounds as if it is the Iona community movement rather than Iona the place that is most important to you. And indeed many of the activities you describe can, and are, not conducted in Iona the place. And therefore I presume the community could be based in places other than Iona and would still be special to you.
For me it is the opposite - I have no engagement, nor desire for engagement with a christian religious community. However Iona the place is very special due to it's end of the earth feel and that it makes humanity seem insignificant in the context of nature. I remember in Iona Abbey thinking that I rather liked being in churches but massively prefer them while empty or next to empty rather than full of a worshiping community. That time I was just about the only person in the place, except for a couple of rather accomplished musicians (one was a flautist, the other a cellist) playing/practicing quietly - it was a special moment, but not a religious one.
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Sounds as if it is the Iona community movement rather than Iona the place that is most important to you. And indeed many of the activities you describe can, and are, not conducted in Iona the place. And therefore I presume the community could be based in places other than Iona and would still be special to you.
For me it is the opposite - I have no engagement, nor desire for engagement with a christian religious community. However Iona the place is very special due to it's end of the earth feel and that it makes humanity seem insignificant in the context of nature. I remember in Iona Abbey thinking that I rather liked being in churches but massively prefer them while empty or next to empty rather than full of a worshiping community. That time I was just about the only person in the place, except for a couple of rather accomplished musicians (one was a flautist, the other a cellist) playing/practicing quietly - it was a special moment, but not a religious one.
Oh, yes, the Abby is indeed special, and atmospheric, Prof.
All the more so when one realises that it's in its' present state thanks to Mcleod, who took a group of trainee ministers and unemployed folk from Govan with little knowledge of building, and started rebuilding the Abby, and, at the same time, creating the community...in a sense the Abby wouldn't exist in its' present state (Iona having its' own, rather beautiful, parish Kirk) without the concept of the community.
Incidentally, a couple of years back, archaeologists from Historic Scotland found what is almost certainly Columcille's cell, not far from St Oran's Cross.
It doesn't get any more significant than that!
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Oh, yes, the Abby is indeed special, and atmospheric, Prof.
All the more so when one realises that it's in its' present state thanks to Mcleod, who took a group of trainee ministers and unemployed folk from Govan with little knowledge of building, and started rebuilding the Abby, and, at the same time, creating the community...in a sense the Abby wouldn't exist in its' present state (Iona having its' own, rather beautiful, parish Kirk) without the concept of the community.
Wasn't aware of that and it makes an interesting story.
However I'm not sure that makes a lot of difference - from memory (and it is a long time ago) I liked the Abbey because of its simplicity, a kind of humbleness towards the landscape. To be honest it probably wouldn't have been much different, arguably even more atmospheric, had the abbey been derelict, in the manner of Tintern. What would have ruined it for me would have been an abbey which was too ornate and kind of trying to dominate the landscape rather than be subservient to it.
I think the presence of music - the flautist and cellist, also made a big impression. No idea who they were but they weren't playing anything sacred - can't remember exactly what it was, but fairly standard classical pieces.
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Some years ago I visited North Uist, South Uist and Benbecula. The desolation of the landscape, the feeling of isolation and the sight of so many Lochs and Lochans were the features I found to be the most captivating. We had travelled there to see some of the special birds that such habitats produced(e.g. great northern diver, hen harrier, corncrake and an American vagrant, pied billed grebe). For me the whole birding experience was highly significant, although to someone else that might not have meant anything much at all. Significance is surely in the eye of the beholder.
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Some years ago I visited North Uist, South Uist and Benbecula. The desolation of the landscape, the feeling of isolation and the sight of so many Lochs and Lochans were the features I found to be the most captivating. We had travelled there to see some of the special birds that such habitats produced(e.g. great northern diver, hen harrier, corncrake and an American vagrant, pied billed grebe). For me the whole birding experience was highly significant, although to someone else that might not have meant anything much at all. Significance is surely in the eye of the beholder.
Ah.....but did you spot the statue of Hercules the bear? ;)
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Some years ago I visited North Uist, South Uist and Benbecula. The desolation of the landscape, the feeling of isolation and the sight of so many Lochs and Lochans were the features I found to be the most captivating. We had travelled there to see some of the special birds that such habitats produced(e.g. great northern diver, hen harrier, corncrake and an American vagrant, pied billed grebe). For me the whole birding experience was highly significant, although to someone else that might not have meant anything much at all. Significance is surely in the eye of the beholder.
Yup - I'd agree with all that.
And having travelled through the Highlands and Skye the Uists are a completely different type of landscape - not the rugged mountainous landscape of the Highlands, but a strange low watery landscape where you constantly seem to be crossing little inlets.
And yes the birds were captivating too - my recollection being lapwings (I think they were) taking off and then being carried horizontally on the wind - next stop North America.
One other recollection - something I don't remember seeing anywhere else. The roads had road markings for 'Blind summits' everywhere. Those in the know said it was to help drivers returning from the pub, if you get my drift.
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What predictable responses from two members. Harris and Lewis, and no doubt other Western Isles, are strictly Presbyterian, sabbatarianism included. I disagree, but how about respecting other people's religion and culture?
I respect your right to believe whatever you want, but I don't have to respect your chosen set of beliefs.
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I think I have mentioned on here welcoming in the New Year amongst the stones at Calanais, and how moving it was as the year ticked over on a spot where the history stretched back 5000 years. That will be 20 years ago tomorrow.
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I respect your right to believe whatever you want, but I don't have to respect your chosen set of beliefs.
Steve's claim is completely untenable.
He seems to be arguing that because less that 50% of the population of a place have a particular belief and observance then everyone must follow suit regardless of their own beliefs, even when there is no law against people doing certain things on a Sunday. This seems to be a contravention of basic rights and freedoms.
Translate that to a different area of the country where a tiny minority, for the sake of argument let's say 5%, attend church. To be consistent you would have to argue that the tiny minority must adopt the customs of the vast majority who don't attend church and should therefore refrain from attending church themselves.
Would you be happy with that Steve? I suspect only a tiny minority in Hemel Hempstead attend church so in order to 'respect' the chosen set of beliefs of the vast majority who aren't church goers you shouldn't attend church to align with and respect the prevailing culture of the place you live in.
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The culture of Lewis certainly involves complying with the preferences of the 'Wee Frees', so its a matter of tradition and to what extent these demands can be considered to be authoritative; but it is slowly changing, since flights and ferries operate on a Sundays, as far as I can see the bookies are open on Sundays and I recall the cinema also had Sunday showings - but the main supermarket remains shut, as is the golf course. It seems likely that these particular traditions will be eroded, but the Western Isles isn't the only place where activity on Sundays is constrained.
Every time I visit England I'm astonished that there are still limitations imposed on the larger supermarkets as regards the number of hours they can open on Sundays: they are restricted to 6 continuous hours between 10.00am and 6.00pm and must close on Easter Sunday, whereas in the West of Scotland (where I am) there are no restrictions at all - for example my local Asda (a few minutes walk) opens from 8am - 10pm on Sundays, while the Asda at Clydebank (10 minutes drive) is open for 24 hours on Sundays.
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The culture of Lewis certainly involves complying with the preferences of the 'Wee Frees', so its a matter of tradition and to what extent these demands can be considered to be authoritative; but it is slowly changing, since flights and ferries operate on a Sundays, as far as I can see the bookies are open on Sundays and I recall the cinema also had Sunday showings - but the main supermarket remains shut, as is the golf course. It seems likely that these particular traditions will be eroded, but the Western Isles isn't the only place where activity on Sundays is constrained.
I think it is one thing where there is planning regulations or other official rule preventing certain activities happening on a Sunday - for example opening hours restrictions under planning. We might not agree, but there is at least an official process. That isn't the same as effectively threatening people who do not uphold your religious view while not breaking any regulations - such as my hanging washing and veiled threat to a workman. That is entirely different and frankly this contravenes any notion of freedom of religion (which extends to freedom from religion). If a wee free doesn't want to hang their washing out on a Sunday because of their religious belief - fine no-one is going to force them. But nor should others be forced not to hang out their washing on a Sunday if they do not hold that religious belief. It smacks hugely of double standards - "you must respect my beliefs, but I don't have to respect your beliefs".
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Every time I visit England I'm astonished that there are still limitations imposed on the larger supermarkets as regards the number of hours they can open on Sundays: they are restricted to 6 continuous hours between 10.00am and 6.00pm and must close on Easter Sunday, whereas in the West of Scotland (where I am) there are no restrictions at all - for example my local Asda (a few minutes walk) opens from 8am - 10pm on Sundays, while the Asda at Clydebank (10 minutes drive) is open for 24 hours on Sundays.
I agree - the opening hours laws in England are archaic and actually delivery exactly the opposition of what the 'Keep Sunday special' brigade claim to want (albeit they actually think we should simply be adhering to their religious view). So the claim is that restricting opening hours for shops provides time for families to engage in other more meaningful activities. But in reality if shops are only open 10-4 you lose the best part of the day if you need to do some shopping. Rather than pop in at 8am, be done with shopping by 9am and then have the rest of the day free to go out etc, you can't get going until perhaps 12.
And I know others have challenged me on this on the basis that you should be able to find other times to shop. Well guess what with busy lives, young kids etc, often Sunday becomes the only time to be able to get to the shops, for example to but new shoes for the kids etc. You cannot do it in the week due to school/work and Saturdays is often wall to wall clubs, music lessons, kid's parties etc.