Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 04, 2021, 11:06:59 AM
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/04/lockdown-brings-alarming-rise-in-modern-slavery
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qhttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/04/lockdown-brings-alarming-rise-in-modern-slavery
I note the mention of the nationalities of some of those subjected to slavery and Sexual exploitation but no mention of the nationalities of those committing these crimes.
Owlswing
)O(
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It is terrible that modern slavery has risen so dramatically. >:( If this sort of slavery was depicted in the Bible and apparently supported by the god character, there are some who would make excuses for it, as they do of the slavery mentioned in that book. ::)
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It is terrible that modern slavery has risen so dramatically. >:( If this sort of slavery was depicted in the Bible and apparently supported by the god character, there are some who would make excuses for it, as they do of the slavery mentioned in that book. ::)
Yes but it is happening in an increasingly secular society centuries after Christians (for the main part) campaigned for it to be abolished.
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Vlad,
Yes but it is happening in an increasingly secular society centuries after Christians (for the main part) campaigned for it to be abolished.
You forgot to mention that it's all Richard Dawkins' fault.
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Yes, yes - secular this. secular that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Nigeria
So look at this map and tell me which sort of countries have the higher prevalence of slavery:
https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/data/maps/#prevalence
I'll wait.
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Vlad,
You forgot to mention that it's all Richard Dawkins' fault.
that's because it's not all his fault.
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Vlad,
that's because it's not all his fault.
Not a truth that's ever stopped you before.
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Yes, yes - secular this. secular that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Nigeria
So look at this map and tell me which sort of countries have the higher prevalence of slavery:
https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/data/maps/#prevalence
I'll wait.
We are talking about the rise of modern slavery all round particularly in increasingly secular nations.
If we are going to take levels of slavery as an indicator of how bad something is, then we cannot suddenly turned round and say ah, but this doesn't apply to us, we can have increased levels of slavery and it is not a reflection on us.
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We are talking about the rise of modern slavery all round particularly in increasingly secular nations.
If we are going to take levels of slavery as an indicator of how bad something is, then we cannot suddenly turned round and say ah, but this doesn't apply to us, we can have increased levels of slavery and it is not a reflection on us.
Good we are getting somewhere at least. Which countries have the highest levels of slavery. I ask this because you can't conversely say that religious countries offer a way out of this - clearly they don't.
So why don't you stop with your ridiculous binary view of issues and admit that a whole host of factors are at play on this issue. As with many others.
For bizarre reasons known only to you you seek to blame secularism for these problems when the truth is significantly more complicated and generally not related to secularism.
Now unfettered capitalism, that's another kettle of sprats altogether..........
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Vlad,
We are talking about the rise of modern slavery all round particularly in increasingly secular nations.
If we are going to take levels of slavery as an indicator of how bad something is, then we cannot suddenly turned round and say ah, but this doesn't apply to us, we can have increased levels of slavery and it is not a reflection on us.
Slavery in secular societies is generally a criminal act; slavey in theocracies often isn't. That's why its incidence in secular countries is still a fraction of that in theocracies. Have a look at the modern slavery map Trent linked to.
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Good we are getting somewhere at least. Which countries have the highest levels of slavery. I ask this because you can't conversely say that religious countries offer a way out of this - clearly they don't.
So why don't you stop with your ridiculous binary view of issues and admit that a whole host of factors are at play on this issue. As with many others.
For bizarre reasons known only to you you seek to blame secularism for these problems when the truth is significantly more complicated and generally not related to secularism.
Now unfettered capitalism, that's another kettle of sprats altogether..........
And yet these things are happening in an increasingly secular society. Is part of the point of an increasingly secular society, moral improvement? If so, then why are we moving from saying beastly things about people to actually treating them in a beastly fashion? Yes certain groups have a better time of it, but swathes have seen their lot get worse.
We need to get to the why this happens. Did western secularism merely talk the talk as a moral movement or what?
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Vlad,
Slavery in secular societies is generally a criminal act; slavey in theocracies often isn't. That's why its incidence in secular countries is still a fraction of that in theocracies. Have a look at the modern slavery map Trent linked to.
However in the Arcuri/johnson thread we have been talking about the increasing impossibility in an increasingly secular country to do anything about any act a tory politician can perform. So even if slavery is a criminal act in such a SOCIETY there is obviously an increased danger of the blind eye.
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Vlad,
And yet these things are happening in an increasingly secular society.
An increase in slavery from 1:100 to 2:100 is a 100% increase. An increase in slavery from 80:100 to 88:100 is an increase of just 10%. Where would you rather live?
You're confusing variance with incidence.
Is part of the point of an increasingly secular society, moral improvement?
Not really, though that’s often a desirable outcome.
If so, then why are we moving from saying beastly things about people to actually treating them in a beastly fashion? Yes certain groups have a better time of it, but swathes have seen their lot get worse.
“We” aren’t; criminal gangs are.
We need to get to the why this happens.
Agreed.
Did western secularism merely talk the talk as a moral movement or what?
It’s got nothing to do with “western secularism”.
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Vlad,
However in the Arcuri/johnson thread we have been talking about the increasing impossibility in an increasingly secular country to do anything about any act a tory politician can perform. So even if slavery is a criminal act in such a SOCIETY there is obviously an increased danger of the blind eye.
Which has still got fuck all to do with secularism. You're back in "I lost my car keys; therefore it's Richard Dawkins' fault" territory again.
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Vlad,
You're back in "I lost my car keys; therefore it's Richard Dawkins' fault" territory again.
I'm afraid I had to laugh at that because of it's pottiness.
Secularism isn't the same as atheism Hillside. It lacks the ''merely'' side of atheism and has ramifications all round. For example if you claim the good things for it then you are obliged to claim the bad things also.
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Vlad,
I'm afraid I had to laugh at that because of it's pottiness.
Given your history of blaming RD for everything from the bubonic plague to the disappearance of Shergar I wonder why?
Secularism isn't the same as atheism Hillside.
You don't say.
It lacks the ''merely'' side of atheism and has ramifications all round. For example if you claim the good things for it then you are obliged to claim the bad things also.
No-one says secular societies are perfect - they're just the least imperfect societies we've come up with so far. By all means identify the imperfections if you want to (though you should also then mention the positives re literacy, life expectancy, gender equality etc) but if you want to use imperfections to criticise secularism in general then you should also reference the incidences of the same phenomena in religious societies for comparison.
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Vlad,
Given your history of blaming RD for everything from the bubonic plague to the disappearance of Shergar I wonder why?
You don't say.
No-one says secular societies are perfect - they're just the least imperfect societies we've come up with so far. By all means identify the imperfections if you want to (though you should also then mention the positives re literacy, life expectancy, gender equality etc) but if you want to use imperfections to criticise secularism in general then you should also reference the incidences of the same phenomena in religious societies for comparison.
Arseclenching whataboutery and not just from you, Hillside.
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Vlad,
Arseclenching whataboutery and not just from you, Hillside.
The abject collapse of your "argument" is noted.
So, now we know is that all you were trying to say was that secular societies are imperfect what better alternative would you propose?
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Arseclenching whataboutery and not just from you, Hillside.
Just once put forward a clear, coherent argument. That's all. Just the fucking once.
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Trent,
Just once put forward a clear, coherent argument. That's all. Just the fucking once.
Someone once described the sight of a man trying the doors of a Yates's wine lodge at four in the afternoon as the definition of optimism.
I think you may have just come up with a better one.
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It is terrible that modern slavery has risen so dramatically. >:( If this sort of slavery was depicted in the Bible and apparently supported by the god character, there are some who would make excuses for it, as they do of the slavery mentioned in that book. ::)
You are obsessed. As De Pfeffelred points out, Christians were in the forefront of the anti-slavery movement, and it was abolished first in Christian countries.
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Will,
You are obsessed. As De Pfeffelred points out, Christians were in the forefront of the anti-slavery movement, and it was abolished first in Christian countries.
And Christians were pro-slavery for the two millennia or so before that.
As for abolition, actually Christians and non-Christians both were at the forefront of that.
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Oh who cares FFS. It's People, fellow humans, who exploit other people including children.
Thanks for posting the article DePff. I did know something about it, it's horrific.
https://www.antislavery.org/what-we-do/uk/
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Will,
And Christians were pro-slavery for the two millennia or so before that.
As for abolition, actually Christians and non-Christians both were at the forefront of that.
It seems everybody was pro slavery particularly of the nasty unrelenting type vis-Ancient Greece and Rome.
Christianity was involved in the moderation of those much to the disappointment of AC Grayling who seems to blame Christianity for spoiling the Glory that was Rome.
As for for the non Christians at the forefront, feel free to make your case.
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Vlad,
It seems everybody was pro slavery particularly of the nasty unrelenting type vis-Ancient Greece and Rome.
Deeply religious people too by the way what with all those gods, but sure – “slavery good” was the Zeitgeist across various cultures over the millennia, Christian ones included.
Christianity was involved in the moderation of those much to the disappointment of AC Grayling who seems to blame Christianity for spoiling the Glory that was Rome.
No, secular philosophers were arguing that slavery was wrong from the 1700s onward. That some (but by no means all) Christian thinkers came to agree with them added to the cause.
As for for the non Christians at the forefront, feel free to make your case.
You could just look it up – suggest you start with J S Mill, Montesquieu, Diderot, William Wilberforce et al, then go from there.
What you’ve been trying here though is analogous to, “I thought medicines were supposed to cure diseases, but people still get ill”. Medicines are though are more demonstrably effective than no medicines – just as rational societies do less harm than faith-based ones.
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You could just look it up – suggest you start with J S Mill, Montesquieu, Diderot, William Wilberforce et al, then go from there.
Don't know about the rest but I think you are on a sticky wicket with Wilberforce. I'm almost sure he was religious, although I think he lapsed once or twice. From what I remember reading it was religion that played its part in convincing him that slavery needed to be abolished.
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Trent,
Don't know about the rest but I think you are on a sticky wicket with Wilberforce. I'm almost sure he was religious, although I think he lapsed once or twice. From what I remember reading it was religion that played its part in convincing him that slavery needed to be abolished.
Oops - you're quite right. I got my Williams mixed up - I meant to reference Pitt (who was a deist at best) but must have had a senior moment there ;)
Thanks for spotting it.
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Vlad,
Deeply religious people too by the way what with all those gods, but sure – “slavery good” was the Zeitgeist across various cultures over the millennia, Christian ones included.
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Christianity was a religion of slaves, although he had a completely different view than you I'm minded of an atheist I used to spar with on another forum. His view was that Christianity was historically based on class envy because of it's early membership of the poor and slaves. Jesus had a bad attitude to money and the rich according to this chap.
Christianity has been the religion of slaves and the poor for millenia. I believe it was Marx who complained that it was keeping them down materially which is what mattered to him. As for ''slavery Good'', in the light of what I have reminded you of, that may be a bit sweeping.
Anyway to your previous point. Gangs. Why tolerate slaving gangs?
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Vlad,
Christianity was a religion of slaves, although he had a completely different view than you I'm minded of an atheist I used to spar with on another forum. His view was that Christianity was historically based on class envy because of it's early membership of the poor and slaves. Jesus had a bad attitude to money and the rich according to this chap.
Christianity has been the religion of slaves and the poor for millenia. I believe it was Marx who complained that it was keeping them down materially which is what mattered to him.
For the best part of two millennia Christianity was the religion of slavery as much as it was of slaves.
As for ''slavery Good'', in the light of what I have reminded you of, that may be a bit sweeping.
What do you think you’ve “reminded” me of, and it’s not sweeping at all – I merely said that many cultures enthusiastically embraced the “slavery good” ethos. Christian societies weren’t alone in that.
Anyway to your previous point. Gangs. Why tolerate slaving gangs?
Why on earth would you think that anyone has suggested any such thing?
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Will,
And Christians were pro-slavery for the two millennia or so before that.
So was everyone else.
As for abolition, actually Christians and non-Christians both were at the forefront of that.
William Wilberforce, John Brown, John Woolman and all the Quakers on the Christian side, Who on the non-Christian?
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John Greenleaf Whittier, Henry Ward Beecher, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Elizabeth Gaskell...
Still waiting for those non-Christian opponents of slavery.
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William Cowper, John Newton, Samuel Johnson, John and Charles Wesley...
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Another form of modern day slavery that I have come across is being perpetrated by a company called Motor Fuels Group. Basically they get Sri Lankans to run their petrol stations, which are open 16 hours a day, and they pay them 0.01p for every litre of fuel they sell. That works out to between £5 and £20 a day. He can make a profit on goods sold in the shop (food etc) and he gets a 10% commission on car wash sales. Out of that he has to pay his staff, a £130 daily charge to use the shop, chemicals for the car wash, and various other costs. One contract manager made a loss of £16,000 during the five-odd years he was there.
I've reported this to our previous MP Michael Fallon, but he wasn't able to do anything because the contract manager at the time wasn't willing to talk to him. It really sucks - I've helped out with cleaning at one of their sites for years and it's getting to the point where successive contract managers give up or get sacked for not working to MFG's standards (why would they if they're not being paid?)
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As for the non-Christians at the forefront, feel free to make your case.
Before Robbie has to make a case, you have to make some sense that does not involve blaming non-Christians for all the wrongs of the World. Remembering, of course, that for more than a few centuries, most of the World was ruled by Christianity and its Popes.
Owlswing
)O(
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Before Robbie has to make a case, you have to make some sense that does not involve blaming non-Christians for all the wrongs of the World. Remembering, of course, that for more than a few centuries, most of the World was ruled by Christianity and its Popes.
Owlswing
)O(
What dates do you think the Popes ruled most of the world?
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What dates do you think the Popes ruled most of the world?
Who else instituted the crusades to get land back from the Muslims?
A lousy memory leading me to another hiding to nothing - I'll shut up and let you guys who know what they are talking about do the arguing! I'm no good at it anymore, that much is totally obvious!
Have fun Gents!
Owlswing
)O(
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That slavery happens now, in a more enlightened age, is frankly terrifying.
One example is young children trafficked as skivvies.
https://www.antislavery.org/