Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Gordon on April 14, 2022, 08:33:23 AM

Title: Birds aren't real
Post by: Gordon on April 14, 2022, 08:33:23 AM
Fascinating article about a satirical claim that morphed into a conspiracy theory in America, with references to politics and religion.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/14/the-lunacy-is-getting-more-intense-how-birds-arent-real-took-on-the-conspiracy-theorists
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 14, 2022, 10:37:27 AM
Fascinating article about a satirical claim that morphed into a conspiracy theory in America, with references to politics and religion.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/14/the-lunacy-is-getting-more-intense-how-birds-arent-real-took-on-the-conspiracy-theorists
Once again equation of evil with religion and religion with white American Christian nationalists.
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Aruntraveller on April 14, 2022, 11:00:13 AM
Once again equation of evil with religion and religion with white American Christian nationalists.


Not really, sounds  more layered and nuanced to me:

Quote
even though everything is [an] echo chamber,” he says, “the ideas in these home-schooled communities are bad echoes. I’m sure that there are beautiful Christian communities that are doing good things somewhere. I’m not trying to bash spirituality. But from my experience, the deep fundamentalist communities that I was in have caused way more harm. And I’ve seen pure evil coming from them.”

My bold.

He is talking about those specific communities, which you yourself have criticised in the past.

Overreaction, perhaps?
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 14, 2022, 05:19:22 PM

Not really, sounds  more layered and nuanced to me:

My bold.

He is talking about those specific communities, which you yourself have criticised in the past.
Er, No....here is where the article goes beyond specific communities.
Quote
He also draws a tentative line between faith and conspiracy theory: “The Christian worldview is really just about how you’re determining truth. Where are you getting truth from? What is your relationship with truth? For the Christian, your foundational relationship with the truth is determined by faith, its definition is that you can’t argue with it or interrogate it.”
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Outrider on April 14, 2022, 05:26:31 PM
Er, No....here is where the article goes beyond specific communities.

And I don't see that he's wrong in that, as a faith position on the nature of reality it's a claim that's immune to rational discourse. That does not intrinsically make it either good or evil, but inherently difficult to challenge.

O.
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 14, 2022, 06:18:03 PM
And I don't see that he's wrong in that, as a faith position on the nature of reality it's a claim that's immune to rational discourse. That does not intrinsically make it either good or evil, but inherently difficult to challenge.

O.
There is double jeopardy from his position.
Firstly he only believes he's right about faith.
2.He's actually wrong about faith
Since we can talk rationally about the merits of any belief.
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Aruntraveller on April 14, 2022, 07:31:07 PM
Er, No....here is where the article goes beyond specific communities.

I'm not seeing the equation you claimed.
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Outrider on April 14, 2022, 11:46:12 PM
There is double jeopardy from his position.

That you think there are two errors in his thinking does not make this a 'double jeapordy' situation.

Quote
Firstly he only believes he's right about faith.

Doesn't everybody? If you didn't think you were right you'd believe something different and think that was right.

Quote
2.He's actually wrong about faith

He's actually not.

Quote
Since we can talk rationally about the merits of any belief.

Not if it's a religious belief, predicated on the idea of a being that hide its existence through magic. You can't rationalise with or against an argument predicated on the suspension of the laws of reality.

O.
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 15, 2022, 05:58:10 AM
That you think there are two errors in his thinking does not make this a 'double jeapordy' situation.

Doesn't everybody? If you didn't think you were right you'd believe something different and think that was right.

He's actually not.

Not if it's a religious belief, predicated on the idea of a being that hide its existence through magic. You can't rationalise with or against an argument predicated on the suspension of the laws of reality.

O.
But that last paragraph is a belief since there are no laws of reality which back up what you say. Also you are quite willing to suspend or create a new reality when it comes to sufficient reason.
Title: Re: Birds aren't real
Post by: Outrider on April 17, 2022, 11:23:35 PM
But that last paragraph is a belief since there are no laws of reality which back up what you say.

You don't think gravitation is a law? Radioactive decay? The speed of light in a vacuum?

Quote
Also you are quite willing to suspend or create a new reality when it comes to sufficient reason.

And which variable definition misuse of a term are we dropping to, here? The 'sufficient reason' for accepting the findings of scientific enquiry is the consistency with which they are shown to actually work.

O.