Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on August 21, 2022, 01:01:53 PM
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Hi everyone,
Asking the age of an applicant at a job interview is 'offensive'...?! Really?!
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/cant-ask-a-lady-that-age-question-in-interview-angers-woman-then-3272361#pfrom=home-ndtv_topstories
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A woman in Northern Ireland who was asked her age at a Domino's Pizza delivery driver job interview won £4,250 (about ₹ 3.7 lakh) in compensation. According to a report in BBC, the woman, Janice Walsh, thought she was passed over for the position because of her age and sex. She asserts that the interviewer at the Domino's Pizza franchise in Strabane, County Tyrone, questioned her about her age at the outset of the conversation.
She accused the Strabane franchise and its previous owner, Justin Quirk, of discrimination. Mr Quirk offered Ms Walsh £4,250 in compensation and apologised for the incident.
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Every job has specific requirements. Age could be one of them. What is wrong in asking the age of the applicant?
Sriram
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I don't see why age should ever be relevant. All that matters is whether you can do the job. However, calling the question "offensive" is ridiculous, and getting £4,250 compo is ridiculosity cubed.
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Hi everyone,
Asking the age of an applicant at a job interview is 'offensive'...?! Really?!
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/cant-ask-a-lady-that-age-question-in-interview-angers-woman-then-3272361#pfrom=home-ndtv_topstories
**********
A woman in Northern Ireland who was asked her age at a Domino's Pizza delivery driver job interview won £4,250 (about ₹ 3.7 lakh) in compensation. According to a report in BBC, the woman, Janice Walsh, thought she was passed over for the position because of her age and sex. She asserts that the interviewer at the Domino's Pizza franchise in Strabane, County Tyrone, questioned her about her age at the outset of the conversation.
She accused the Strabane franchise and its previous owner, Justin Quirk, of discrimination. Mr Quirk offered Ms Walsh £4,250 in compensation and apologised for the incident.
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Every job has specific requirements. Age could be one of them. What is wrong in asking the age of the applicant?
Sriram
In what way can age be a specific requirement?
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I don't have a problem asking applicants how old they are, especially if they are getting on in years and the job is hard work physically.
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Every job has specific requirements. Age could be one of them. What is wrong in asking the age of the applicant?
In general terms I agree with this statement but there should be some indication as to why age is an important factor. Is it possible that Justin Quirk did not ask any of the other applicants how old they were?
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Every job has specific requirements. Age could be one of them. What is wrong in asking the age of the applicant?
In general terms I agree with this statement but there should be some indication as to why age is an important factor. Is it possible that Justin Quirk did not ask any of the other applicants how old they were?
How would she know whether he did or not?!
Age IS an important factor for determining the capabilities and inabilities of any individual.....at least in a majority of cases. You can't be calling all age groups for enlisting into the army and then try to determine if all the 60 or 70 year old's are capable of running 10 miles with knapsacks and rifles.....!
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Hi everyone,
Asking the age of an applicant at a job interview is 'offensive'...?! Really?!
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/cant-ask-a-lady-that-age-question-in-interview-angers-woman-then-3272361#pfrom=home-ndtv_topstories
Where in the article is the word "offensive" used in relation to asking someone's age. Perhaps I've missed it, but I can't find it.
Every job has specific requirements. Age could be one of them. What is wrong in asking the age of the applicant?
Sriram
It is wrong firstly because it is against the law, and while there may be specific occupational requirements, it is very, very rare that those would specifically relate to the age of a person. If the job requires physical strength, then you include that in the job spec. and assess as part of the recruitment process. You need to assess the individual applicant in terms of their ability to meet the job spec, not lump them into a generic group. So it might be that people over 40 are on average less strong than those aged 20-30, but that doesn't mean that all people over 40 are less strong than all people between 20-30, nor that no one over 40 would have the strength to do a particular job.
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In what way can age be a specific requirement?
You can't serve alcohol behind a bar if you are under 18.
The armed forces and the police have maximum age restrictions.
It is my personal opinion that there should be a minimum age and a maximum age to be an MP. I'm thinking 30-70.
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You can't serve alcohol behind a bar if you are under 18.
The armed forces and the police have maximum age restrictions.
It is my personal opinion that there should be a minimum age and a maximum age to be an MP. I'm thinking 30-70.
What is your justification for those age restrictions on MPs?
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Why asking a person's age should be illegal is beyond me! Age is a basic attribute of every person. It automatically implies certain qualities, traits and abilities. You understand a person better if you know his/her age.
Yes....a small percentage of persons may not fit into any specific age profile, but a vast majority will. Not only army and police but even certain other jobs requiring a degree of mental agility and alertness can specify age limits. Certain jobs requiring experience could prefer older people.
Checking out every person from varying age groups to determine if he/she has the required qualities and abilities would be very difficult.
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My memory of job application and interviews is rather hazy these days - but I'm sure I recall that back in my day of being interviewed or sitting on an interview panel, which wasn't yesterday, that items such as date of birth and qualifications/qualification dates were a routine part of the application details.
Of course I could be mistaken.
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Why asking a person's age should be illegal is beyond me! Age is a basic attribute of every person. It automatically implies certain qualities, traits and abilities. You understand a person better if you know his/her age.
Yes....a small percentage of persons may not fit into any specific age profile, but a vast majority will. Not only army and police but even certain other jobs requiring a degree of mental agility and alertness can specify age limits. Certain jobs requiring experience could prefer older people.
Checking out every person from varying age groups to determine if he/she has the required qualities and abilities would be very difficult.
It is wrong if age is used as a way of selecting candidates for jobs if in all other ways the candidate is suitable.
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I don't know about pizza delivery people but most jobs require an application form to be completed which includes date of birth.
As Maeght said: It is wrong if age is used as a way of selecting candidates for jobs if in all other ways the candidate is suitable.
I agree with that, however such big compensation for such a small, clumsy question is out of proportion.
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I don't know about pizza delivery people but most jobs require an application form to be completed which includes date of birth.
As Maeght said: It is wrong if age is used as a way of selecting candidates for jobs if in all other ways the candidate is suitable.
I agree with that, however such big compensation for such a small, clumsy question is out of proportion.
It is completely ridiculous, imo.
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I don't know about pizza delivery people but most jobs require an application form to be completed which includes date of birth.
As Maeght said: It is wrong if age is used as a way of selecting candidates for jobs if in all other ways the candidate is suitable.
I agree with that, however such big compensation for such a small, clumsy question is out of proportion.
No reason age, by itself, would be needed to assess the ability to deliver pizza.
The compensation was obviously a matter of agreement between the woman and the owner, who must have agreed that he or his organisation had been in the wrong.
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My memory of job application and interviews is rather hazy these days - but I'm sure I recall that back in my day of being interviewed or sitting on an interview panel, which wasn't yesterday, that items such as date of birth and qualifications/qualification dates were a routine part of the application details.
Of course I could be mistaken.
No, you are right. DOB was always a question on the application form, still is. However hiring a pizza delivery person may be less formal. They would presumably have to show their driving licence and that has dob on it.
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What is your justification for those age restrictions on MPs?
The minimum age is so that they can have some experience of the real world before becoming a representative of the people and the maximum age is because people's mental faculties start to wane soon after that. Not to mention being an MP is an arduous job, at least if done properly.
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No, you are right. DOB was always a question on the application form, still is.
Nope - you are both wrong. It is unlawful to ask for someone's DOB on the application form for a job in the UK, nor ask their age. The only exceptions are when the employer is able to justify that being below or above a particular age is a genuine occupational requirement, but that is a very hard ask as it is very, very rare that such a justification can be sustained.
You can ask for DOB/age on a separate equality monitoring form. But firstly answering the questions on the equality monitoring form is voluntary - you cannot insist someone fills this information in. Secondly this information must be separated from the main application form and the people actually involved in selecting or interviewing candidates must not see this information and cannot use is as part of their selection process. The purpose of this form is for a company to monitor whether it is receiving fewer applications from certain groups of people, or are disproportionately recruiting people from certain groups when looking at the diversity of applications. This will allow a company to alter its recruitment processes if necessary.
https://www.gov.uk/employer-preventing-discrimination/recruitment
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The armed forces and the police have maximum age restrictions.
Not sure about the army, but the police no longer have an upper age restriction on who may apply. You can apply to join the police at any age, but you would need to demonstrate that you have the physical fitness to do the job of a junior police officer.
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Asking for a date of birth
You can only ask for someone’s date of birth on an application form if they must be a certain age to do the job, for example selling alcohol.
You can ask someone their date of birth on a separate equality monitoring form. You should not let the person selecting or interviewing candidates see this form.
https://www.gov.uk/employer-preventing-discrimination/recruitment#:~:text=You%20can%20only%20ask%20for,interviewing%20candidates%20see%20this%20form.
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Asking for a date of birth
You can only ask for someone’s date of birth on an application form if they must be a certain age to do the job, for example selling alcohol.
You can ask someone their date of birth on a separate equality monitoring form. You should not let the person selecting or interviewing candidates see this form.
https://www.gov.uk/employer-preventing-discrimination/recruitment#:~:text=You%20can%20only%20ask%20for,interviewing%20candidates%20see%20this%20form.
Indeed - that is from the official site I linked to.
So bottom line is under normal circumstances it is unlawful to ask the age of someone as part of the recruitment process. The primary reason being that age is not a good way to assess whether an individual meets the requirement for a job and you need to be determining whether the individual who has applied for a job meets the job spec, not making decisions based on a particular group that this person belongs to, whether that be grouped by age, or sex, or any other protected characteristic.
And that is both the right thing to do in equalities terms, but also the sensible thing to do in recruitment terms - it isn't very smart to exclude someone who may be perfectly capable of doing a job (indeed could be the best candidate) simply because an employer has applied some crude and simplistic (and unlawful) minimum or maximum age requirement. Completely dumb thing for any sensible employer to do.
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I keep buying (and getting) non-alchoholics drinks and keep having to tell them my age or when I was born.
I've no idea why they think that's in any way important.
(Just to be clear, they are alcohol-free beer and occasionally lager, they say that on their packaging.)
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|It may be illegal now to ask a person's age when they apply for a job but in my previous job where I worked for many years even before married, I dealt with many applications and we even asked for copy of birth certificate. I can remember having to submit mine when I joined.
I do wonder if the reason this case has been reported is because there was some rudeness/arrogance in manner on the part of the interviewer. Who would object if asked, 'do you mind telling us how old you are'? There must have been some relevance though I can't imagine what for a pizza rider.
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Can you imagine 70 year old's zooming and winding their way through traffic at top speed, to deliver pizzas....? Or even 50 year old's for that matter.....
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Can you imagine 70 year old's zooming and winding their way through traffic at top speed, to deliver pizzas....? Or even 50 year old's for that matter.....
Well I'm 70, and I zoom through traffic on a fairly powerful motorcycle on a regular basis - albeit I don't deliver pizzas: but I've always enjoyed the 'zooming' bit.
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Can you imagine 70 year old's zooming and winding their way through traffic at top speed, to deliver pizzas....? Or even 50 year old's for that matter.....
Yes.
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Well I'm 70, and I zoom through traffic on a fairly powerful motorcycle on a regular basis - albeit I don't deliver pizzas: but I've always enjoyed the 'zooming' bit.
Fine...! But is that the rule or the exception..?
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Fine...! But is that the rule or the exception..?
Couldn't say: but we motorcyclists are a friendly bunch (which is why we wave at each other when riding) and I still regularly see several of the guys I knew as fellow motorcyclists around 30 years ago who are, like me, still riding today.
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Fine...! But is that the rule or the exception..?
If there are exceptions then you shouldn't use the person's age as a measure of whether or not they can do the task. That's the point. Someone who can do the job should have an equal chance of getting the job regardless of their age, otherwise it is discriminating against someone who is perfectly capable of doing the job just based on their age.
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I have food deliveries sometimes and the riders are all ages. All that matters is they are reasonably fit, can do the job and have a clean driving licence for bike, car or van. However it seems silly to object to being asked your age, politely, and date of birth is on a driving licence anyway. I can't help feeling there is more to this story than we know.
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I have food deliveries sometimes and the riders are all ages. All that matters is they are reasonably fit, can do the job and have a clean driving licence for bike, car or van. However it seems silly to object to being asked your age, politely, and date of birth is on a driving licence anyway. I can't help feeling there is more to this story than we know.
There is more to it than being asked her age - 'Janice Walsh, thought she was passed over for the position because of her age and sex'.
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Oh gosh. the people who sometimes deliver to me are often women. It grows more curious by the minute.
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Oh gosh. the people who sometimes deliver to me are often women. It grows more curious by the minute.
This firm may or may not feel women are not suitable for the roles. What difference does your experience of women often delivering things to you make to that?
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I don't know, Maeght, it just surprises me. We'd have to know more about the firm.
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Why asking a person's age should be illegal is beyond me! Age is a basic attribute of every person. It automatically implies certain qualities, traits and abilities. You understand a person better if you know his/her age.
Implies, but doesn't ensure. And, more importantly, there are implications about people's lack of capability that can be 'assumed' based upon age - in particular, for women, if they are in the age bracket where they could reasonably be considered to be either likely to become a parent or likely to already be a parent to young children, there will be employers who would rather not deal with someone who is a primary carer in the home.
Yes....a small percentage of persons may not fit into any specific age profile, but a vast majority will.
That rather depends on the assumption - what constitutes 'old' in the UK, with improved healthcare and nutrition over the last decades? What impact does 'old' have, is it the same balance of physical and mental decline when it does come as people expect based on cultural tropes that are decades old?
Checking out every person from varying age groups to determine if he/she has the required qualities and abilities would be very difficult.
I suspect it's not easy being passed over for work opportunities because someone has decided that you're past your prime, or because someone's decided that you've not seen enough without finding out what you've actually seen. Demographics aren't employed, people are employed - you should be interviewing people, not statistics.
O.
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If there are exceptions then you shouldn't use the person's age as a measure of whether or not they can do the task. That's the point. Someone who can do the job should have an equal chance of getting the job regardless of their age, otherwise it is discriminating against someone who is perfectly capable of doing the job just based on their age.
Absolutely - and therefore you need to state on the job spec what tasks a person will be required to do and what skills, qualifications etc they will need to demonstrate to be able to do the job.
So if you need someone who is able to ride a delivery motor scooter safely and efficiently, that's what you put on the job spec.
Ability to safely and efficiently ride a delivery scooter - then age becomes irrelevant, ability to ride a scooter safely and efficiently is the criteria you are assessing.
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I don't know, Maeght, it just surprises me. We'd have to know more about the firm.
Not really - I suspect the firm incriminated themselves - simple as that.
It is unlawful to discriminate in recruitment on the basis of sex or age except in highly exceptional circumstances, and being a delivery driver or rider won't be one of those circumstances.
It is therefore unlawful to ask someone their ages as part of the recruitment process.
The company asked this women her age - she wasn't offered the job, yet they continued to advertise indicating that they considered he not to be meet the requirements for the job (not just not being the best candidate of several who all met the requirements for the job).
Presumably the woman did meet the requirements for the job - in which case the company has effectively won the case for her.
In terms of compensation - I suspect this may well be three months wages - on the basis that she was unlawfully denied the job and in most cases she would have expected to be in the job for at least a standard three month probationary period.
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Couldn't say: but we motorcyclists are a friendly bunch (which is why we wave at each other when riding) and I still regularly see several of the guys I knew as fellow motorcyclists around 30 years ago who are, like me, still riding today.
I think the case was about a delivery driver, rather than a delivery rider.
But nonetheless - if you want someone who can safely and efficiently ride a delivery motorbike or scooter would you prefer:
1). A 58 year old with decades of experience of safely riding motor-bikes of all sizes and power in cities and on motorways and on country roads ... or
2). A 19 year old who has just passed their driving test for a car, but has never riden a scooter before (but is legally able to ride a scooter with L-plates)
Hmm - I think we know the answer, but in Sriram's rather strange world the 58 year old would not just be less preferred, but banned from being recruited for the role.
If you want someone to ride a scooter as part of their job, then assess their ability to ride a scooter - not use simplistic, crude (and unlawful) age criteria.
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Why asking a person's age should be illegal is beyond me! Age is a basic attribute of every person. It automatically implies certain qualities, traits and abilities. You understand a person better if you know his/her age.
Yes....a small percentage of persons may not fit into any specific age profile, but a vast majority will.
But you have to assess the individual's abilities not assume their abilities on the basis of demographically 'average' traits.
And while it may be true (but not relevant) that on average 20-30 year olds are physically stronger than 50-60 year olds, applying a crude maximum age (e.g. 50) doesn't mean you are comparing 20-30 year olds to 50-60 year olds. Nope, it means you are comparing 49 year olds (who you will allow to apply for a job) with 50 year olds who are banned. Are you really claiming that, even on average, 49 year olds are demonstrably different in their abilities that 50 year olds?
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Can you imagine 70 year old's zooming and winding their way through traffic at top speed, to deliver pizzas....? Or even 50 year old's for that matter.....
I can image people of all ages zooming and winding their way at top speed. The biggest group of drivers involved in RTCs as a percentage of their age group is young drivers (i.e. under 30).
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1021656/ras20002.ods
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Many 70 year olds might believe and claim to be able to ride bikes well.....but only a small percentage might actually be able to. Among 30 year olds the percentage would definitely be much higher. So, adopting a age criterion to weed out applicants makes sense.
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Many 70 year olds might believe and claim to be able to ride bikes well.....but only a small percentage might actually be able to. Among 30 year olds the percentage would definitely be much higher. So, adopting a age criterion to weed out applicants makes sense.
It is unfair on those who are older but perfectly capable of doing the job. It's about equal opportunities.
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Rather than age I think I would be more interested in attitude and its impact on productivity. Some of the issues such as punctuality, being results-orientated, interested in learning new skills, adapting to new work practices, being able to work early in the morning and late into the evening if needed, following instructions without ego getting in the way, honesty, integrity, enthusiasm, polite customer service, ability to network and secure new revenue for the business from potential customers due to experience, knowledge and good inter-personal skills are key areas that do not depend on age.
The more that productivity is dependent on technology the more useful it would be if a recruitment process includes a test to check aptitude in being able to pick up and adapt to new technology. Not sure if testing for this in a recruitment process would be affected by Equality Legislation regarding disability? Can it be justified as necessary to raise business productivity?
Is productivity impacted by health issues - not sure what the stats are on this but it seems plausible? If productivity is affected by health issues e.g. being over-weight leading to multiple health and fitness problems. Would employers be taken to court for not hiring someone because they move slowly or get short of breath quickly or seem tired because they are unable to sleep properly?
UK workforce seem to have a problem for a while (or at least since the 2008 financial crisis) with wages not rising fast enough compared to increased costs of living because productivity of businesses is less than the productivity of competitors. Workers in the UK end up working longer hours for less pay.
"UK productivity growth has lagged behind that of other comparable economies since the 1970s and the country has suffered virtually zero growth in labour productivity since 2008" https://theconversation.com/how-to-boost-uk-productivity-after-coronavirus-133735
In terms of the issue of age though this article says "Worryingly for the future, the UK is the only country where older people (aged 55-64) outperformed younger people (16-24) in both literary and numeracy."
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Many 70 year olds might believe and claim to be able to ride bikes well.....but only a small percentage might actually be able to. Among 30 year olds the percentage would definitely be much higher. So, adopting a age criterion to weed out applicants makes sense.
It makes no sense at all. As I pointed out previously, adopting an age criterion (e.g. 50) doesn't create a arbitrary distinction between 30 year olds and 50 year olds. Nope it creates an arbitrary distinction between 49 year olds and 50 year olds. And I'd be amazed if there are any demographic data that demonstrates that 49 years olds are demonstrably better motorbike riders than 50 year olds.
So rather age, which is not only unlawful but crude and arbitrary in terms of determining whether someone is a safe motorbike rider for a job which involves safely riding a motorbike, why not ask the following:
1. Do you hold a licence to ride a motorbike?
2. How many years have you held that licence?
3. Approximately how many miles a year do you ride a motorbike.
4. In the past 5 years have you had any accidents when riding a motorbike?
5. In the past 5 years have you received any FPN or been convicted of any motor-bike riding offence?
That would tell you whether you have an experienced and likely safe rider (or otherwise) applying for the job, regardless of age. Asking age wouldn't tell you anything valuable in terms of ability to ride a motorbike - besides which it would be against the law.
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Rather than age I think I would be more interested in attitude and its impact on productivity. Some of the issues such as punctuality, being results-orientated, interested in learning new skills, adapting to new work practices, being able to work early in the morning and late into the evening if needed, following instructions without ego getting in the way, honesty, integrity, enthusiasm, polite customer service, ability to network and secure new revenue for the business from potential customers due to experience, knowledge and good inter-personal skills are key areas that do not depend on age.
The more that productivity is dependent on technology the more useful it would be if a recruitment process includes a test to check aptitude in being able to pick up and adapt to new technology. Not sure if testing for this in a recruitment process would be affected by Equality Legislation regarding disability? Can it be justified as necessary to raise business productivity?
Is productivity impacted by health issues - not sure what the stats are on this but it seems plausible? If productivity is affected by health issues e.g. being over-weight leading to multiple health and fitness problems. Would employers be taken to court for not hiring someone because they move slowly or get short of breath quickly or seem tired because they are unable to sleep properly?
UK workforce seem to have a problem for a while (or at least since the 2008 financial crisis) with wages not rising fast enough compared to increased costs of living because productivity of businesses is less than the productivity of competitors. Workers in the UK end up working longer hours for less pay.
"UK productivity growth has lagged behind that of other comparable economies since the 1970s and the country has suffered virtually zero growth in labour productivity since 2008" https://theconversation.com/how-to-boost-uk-productivity-after-coronavirus-133735
In terms of the issue of age though this article says "Worryingly for the future, the UK is the only country where older people (aged 55-64) outperformed younger people (16-24) in both literary and numeracy."
I do mostly agree with your points... As you suggest, low productivity is a major UK economic problem. However, the solutions lie in in fixing the causes of this .. not the characteristics of the recruits. You can take your ideal superman/superwoman and reduce their productivity to shite in a few days, let alone years or decades -eg. with policies recruiting, training and promoting cheaper graduates rather than experienced hires or long term employees.