Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on September 11, 2022, 02:39:19 PM
-
Hi everyone,
Death the leveler! The queen is dead and like with everyone else, her body starts decomposing. Many of us here are in the evening of our lives and will face the same fate sooner or later (hopefully later!).
It is inevitable that we think of death and its true nature at this hour.
Mainstream science of course, has no idea what death is. Scientists merely look at what happens to the body and based on that infer that death is just the end of a biological process. Life is a biological process and death is the end of the process.
Christians believe (I think) that we individuals have a soul that leaves the body after death and that each of us faces a judgement day after which we are assigned eternal life in heaven of hell. There could be some differences among different religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
In Hinduism we believe in the individual soul (jivatma) that reincarnates into different bodies depending on its state of consciousness. The soul thereby develops or evolves into higher levels of consciousness. We all then finally merge into the Universal Consciousness (in one school of thought) never to be reborn again. Like rivers flowing into the ocean.
Some modern philosophers seem to accept the idea of panpsychism and cosmopsychism.
Near Death Experiences give us some insights into what happens during and after death.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers.
Sriram
-
Mainstream science of course, has no idea what death is. Scientists merely look at what happens to the body and based on that infer that death is just the end of a biological process. Life is a biological process and death is the end of the process.
So you contradict your first sentence with your second sentence.
Some modern philosophers seem to accept the idea of panpsychism and cosmopsychism.
Not any of the intelligent ones.
Near Death Experiences give us some insights into what happens during and after death.
Not really. Nobody who has been able to report back on an NDE has actually died.
-
In Hinduism we believe in the individual soul (jivatma) that reincarnates into different bodies depending on its state of consciousness. The soul thereby develops or evolves into higher levels of consciousness.
Where do all the extra souls come from?
Either human souls are different (not what I'm led to believe mainstream Hinduism teaches, but I'm no expert), in which case where have the additional 7 billion or so human souls come from since humanity emerged as a small population of a few million slightly differently evolved apes, or souls aren't restricted to any particular form of life, in which case where is the supply of souls to replace those which, presumably, have achieved Nirvana?
What happens when there's only one soul left awaiting enlightenment?
O.
-
Hi Outrider,
There is no comprehensive, clear cut and precise knowledge of all this. Different schools of thought have somewhat different ideas. But it is generally believed that it is a permanent cyclical process like the water cycle. Individual spirits or souls emerge or get projected from the One Universal Spirit and keep working their way back to their source. It is a continuous process.
Cheers.
Sriram
-
Hi Outrider,
There is no comprehensive, clear cut and precise knowledge of all this. Different schools of thought have somewhat different ideas. But it is generally believed that it is a permanent cyclical process like the water cycle. Individual spirits or souls emerge or get projected from the One Universal Spirit and keep working their way back to their source. It is a continuous process.
Cheers.
Sriram
Sorry, I realise I'm at risk of derailing this nascent thread, but I'm genuinely curious - these 'new' souls projected this central repository, are they totally new creations, are they some sort of amalgamation of previous souls? Is this 'Universal Spirit' the thing that souls are returning to when they achieve Nirvana? And if they're not returning, could this 'Universal Spirit' run out?
Again, I appreciate there may not be a definitive answer on this, but I don't get the opportunity to speak with people with a background in this culture too often.
O.
-
Mainstream science of course, has no idea what death is. Scientists merely look at what happens to the body and based on that infer that death is just the end of a biological process. Life is a biological process and death is the end of the process.
This sentence is a contradiction. First you say science has no idea what death is, then you say what scientists interpret death as.
-
Sorry, I realise I'm at risk of derailing this nascent thread, but I'm genuinely curious - these 'new' souls projected this central repository, are they totally new creations, are they some sort of amalgamation of previous souls? Is this 'Universal Spirit' the thing that souls are returning to when they achieve Nirvana? And if they're not returning, could this 'Universal Spirit' run out?
Again, I appreciate there may not be a definitive answer on this, but I don't get the opportunity to speak with people with a background in this culture too often.
O.
These are only speculative ideas. No one has any clear idea about this. But Hinduism fortunately, doesn't accept any idea merely through scripture. In fact there is nothing that you can call 'scripture' or anything unquestionably true. People are free to come up with their ideas any time and it will be accepted as a part of Hindu philosophy. If science comes up with any meaningful ideas, that will be accepted too.
The Universal Spirit is believed to be pure spirit and the source of the universe. How and why....we don't know. Creation is believed to happen through vibrations in the cosmic consciousness and happens in various levels (7 levels in some texts). The Universal Spirit or Consciousness is believed to descend through these levels and lodge itself into the material world as individual souls. These souls then ascend back through the different levels to join the Universal Consciousness. This happens through a learning and cleaning process.
When water evaporates from the ocean does it contain water from the different rivers. Yes of course, it does...but it cannot be identified with any specific drop of water that comes in. The Universal Spirit is not a box full of souls that it can 'run out'. It is the universal itself. It is all that exists. The universe and our individual consciousness exist within this Spirit.
These ideas are similar to Kabbala also btw.
-
These are only speculative ideas. No one has any clear idea about this. But Hinduism fortunately, doesn't accept any idea merely through scripture. In fact there is nothing that you can call 'scripture' or anything unquestionably true. People are free to come up with their ideas any time and it will be accepted as a part of Hindu philosophy. If science comes up with any meaningful ideas, that will be accepted too.
The Universal Spirit is believed to be pure spirit and the source of the universe. How and why....we don't know. Creation is believed to happen through vibrations in the cosmic consciousness and happens in various levels (7 levels in some texts). The Universal Spirit or Consciousness is believed to descend through these levels and lodge itself into the material world as individual souls. These souls then ascend back through the different levels to join the Universal Consciousness. This happens through a learning and cleaning process.
When water evaporates from the ocean does it contain water from the different rivers. Yes of course, it does...but it cannot be identified with any specific drop of water that comes in. The Universal Spirit is not a box full of souls that it can 'run out'. It is the universal itself. It is all that exists. The universe and our individual consciousness exist within this Spirit.
These ideas are similar to Kabbala also btw.
How is the consciousness of one’s nature lost?
What is the purpose of the experience of total separation from other souls.
-
How is the consciousness of one’s nature lost?
What is the purpose of the experience of total separation from other souls.
We have no idea of the purpose, if any. These insights come about through introspection and through an inner journey into ones own mind and consciousness.
After much elimination, a person realizes that he or she is ultimately a part of a common consciousness that encompasses everything else. It is this personal experience of the inter-connected nature of all life that gives rise to the idea of a Universal Consciousness.
-
Hi everyone,
Death the leveler! The queen is dead and like with everyone else, her body starts decomposing. Many of us here are in the evening of our lives and will face the same fate sooner or later (hopefully later!).
It is inevitable that we think of death and its true nature at this hour.
Mainstream science of course, has no idea what death is. Scientists merely look at what happens to the body and based on that infer that death is just the end of a biological process. Life is a biological process and death is the end of the process.
Christians believe (I think) that we individuals have a soul that leaves the body after death and that each of us faces a judgement day after which we are assigned eternal life in heaven of hell. There could be some differences among different religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
In Hinduism we believe in the individual soul (jivatma) that reincarnates into different bodies depending on its state of consciousness. The soul thereby develops or evolves into higher levels of consciousness. We all then finally merge into the Universal Consciousness (in one school of thought) never to be reborn again. Like rivers flowing into the ocean.
Some modern philosophers seem to accept the idea of panpsychism and cosmopsychism.
Near Death Experiences give us some insights into what happens during and after death.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers.
Sriram
We know death is the end of a biological process called life. Beyond that is just speculation, beliefs and imagining.
-
We know death is the end of a biological process called life. Beyond that is just speculation, beliefs and imagining.
It is speculation and interpretation...yes...but not necessarily imaginary. There are well established methods and systems by which a person can undertake the inward journey into ones own mind and see for oneself as to what the fundamental consciousness is.
Yoga, Vedanta, Gnosticism, Kabbala and other philosophies around the world are broadly in agreement about the nature of the common consciousness.
-
It is speculation and interpretation...yes...but not necessarily imaginary. There are well established methods and systems by which a person can undertake the inward journey into ones own mind and see for oneself as to what the fundamental consciousness is.
None of which will tell you what happens after we are dead, as all of these methods can only be adopted when we are living.
-
We have no idea of the purpose, if any. These insights come about through introspection and through an inner journey into ones own mind and consciousness.
After much elimination, a person realizes that he or she is ultimately a part of a common consciousness that encompasses everything else. It is this personal experience of the inter-connected nature of all life that gives rise to the idea of a Universal Consciousness.
This reads like a “standard letter”
-
It is speculation and interpretation...yes...but not necessarily imaginary. There are well established methods and systems by which a person can undertake the inward journey into ones own mind and see for oneself as to what the fundamental consciousness is.
Yoga, Vedanta, Gnosticism, Kabbala and other philosophies around the world are broadly in agreement about the nature of the common consciousness.
That doesn't mean any of it is more than imagination. A common imagination maybe (broadly) but that's no an argument for it being true. It may be but in the absence of convincing evidence I'll avoid the speculation and stick to what we know.
imagination
noun
imag·i·na·tion i-ˌma-jə-ˈnā-shən
1: the act or power of forming a mental image of something not present to the senses or never before wholly perceived in reality
2a: creative ability
b: ability to confront and deal with a problem : RESOURCEFULNESS
use your imagination and get us out of here
c: the thinking or active mind : INTEREST
stories that fired the imagination
3 a; a creation of the mind especially : an idealized or poetic creation
b; fanciful or empty assumption
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imagination (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imagination)
-
None of which will tell you what happens after we are dead, as all of these methods can only be adopted when we are living.
People have come back from the dead and given their account of their experiences. We have discussed NDE's many times before. There are critical care doctors like Sam Parnia who are very clear that the NDEs are post death experiences.
You want to define death as a final event from which people cannot return and then keep using that definition to conclude that NDE's cannot be post death experiences! That is a ridiculous circular argument.
-
That doesn't mean any of it is more than imagination. A common imagination maybe (broadly) but that's no an argument for it being true. It may be but in the absence of convincing evidence I'll avoid the speculation and stick to what we know.
imagination
noun
imag·i·na·tion i-ˌma-jə-ˈnā-shən
1: the act or power of forming a mental image of something not present to the senses or never before wholly perceived in reality
2a: creative ability
b: ability to confront and deal with a problem : RESOURCEFULNESS
use your imagination and get us out of here
c: the thinking or active mind : INTEREST
stories that fired the imagination
3 a; a creation of the mind especially : an idealized or poetic creation
b; fanciful or empty assumption
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imagination (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imagination)
People have NDE's. There are the personal spiritual experiences of many people over the centuries around the world. All this is enough evidence to speculate.
If people can speculate about Strings, time travel and Parallel universes, why not about an after life and the nature of a common Consciousness?!
-
People have NDE's. There are the personal spiritual experiences of many people over the centuries around the world. All this is enough evidence to speculate.
If people can speculate about Strings, time travel and Parallel universes, why not about an after life and the nature of a common Consciousness?!
Of course people can speculate provided they recognise that that is what they are doing and don't try impose their speculation on others . Strings etc are speculation yes.
We know people report NDEs but we don't know what they are so can't really be used as evidence to support something else. Same with spiritual experiences. Of course if people have such experiences they are going to speculate but their interpretation of a personal experience doesn't really tell us anything about the reasons they are having those experiences. We don't know.
Speculate away but if you present your speculation as some truth that others should accept then that will be challenged. If.
-
Of course people can speculate provided they recognise that that is what they are doing and don't try impose their speculation on others . Strings etc are speculation yes.
We know people report NDEs but we don't know what they are so can't really be used as evidence to support something else. Same with spiritual experiences. Of course if people have such experiences they are going to speculate but their interpretation of a personal experience doesn't really tell us anything about the reasons they are having those experiences. We don't know.
Speculate away but if you present your speculation as some truth that others should accept then that will be challenged. If.
Even the so called knowledge offered by science is tentative valid only until someone comes along and offers a different but better explanation.
What I am talking of is philosophy. A possibility....maybe even a probability in some cases. There is significant (albeit indirect) widely held evidence for it.
It is not an imposition. Why should it be?
What is an imposition is the attempt to dismiss all such ideas as delusional or imagination (metal construct) or wishful thinking instead of acknowledging the possibilities.
-
People have come back from the dead and given their account of their experiences.
No they haven't.
You want to define death as a final event from which people cannot return and then keep using that definition to conclude that NDE's cannot be post death experiences! That is a ridiculous circular argument.
No. It's definitional. Death is final. If you come back, you never finished the process of dying.
-
Nobody has come back from the dead if they actually died.
-
Nobody has come back from the dead if they actually died.
Jeremy is defining death definitionally and has a sound argument if his definition is accepted. However death could be defined as a cessation of certain physical process in which case there is no actual intrinsic problem with these being restarted. If death is merely a change in the organisation of matter then there is no intrinsic barrier to rearrangement of that matter.
There have been reports of this happening.
-
You are not dead if you can be brought back to life again.
-
Jeremy is defining death definitionally and has a sound argument if his definition is accepted. However death could be defined as a cessation of certain physical process in which case there is no actual intrinsic problem with these being restarted. If death is merely a change in the organisation of matter then there is no intrinsic barrier to rearrangement of that matter.
Apart from the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Once the brain is deprived of oxygen, it's a matter of about a minute before the point of no return. I suppose, in principle, it would be possible to reverse the damage but it's well beyond the abilities of our technology and the probability of it happening by chance is so small that it is effectively impossible.
There have been reports of this happening.
Not reliable ones.
-
Apart from the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Once the brain is deprived of oxygen, it's a matter of about a minute before the point of no return. I suppose, in principle, it would be possible to reverse the damage but it's well beyond the abilities of our technology and the probability of it happening by chance is so small that it is effectively impossible.Not reliable ones.
Where would you say the unreliability lies?
Talk of us not having the technology is parochial.
Not sure what an effective impossibility is given that you've stated it's improbability.
-
Even the so called knowledge offered by science is tentative valid only until someone comes along and offers a different but better explanation.
What I am talking of is philosophy. A possibility....maybe even a probability in some cases. There is significant (albeit indirect) widely held evidence for it.
It is not an imposition. Why should it be?
What is an imposition is the attempt to dismiss all such ideas as delusional or imagination (metal construct) or wishful thinking instead of acknowledging the possibilities.
Scientific knowledge is tentative, yes - it reflects the best explanation of the facts as we currently know them but is always open to change with new evidence. I don't think philosophy gets us any closer to the truth i.e. reality and prefer to go with believing in things for which we have good evidence (I don't consider personal experiences as good evidence since I cannot verify the experience of the interpretation) and to accept that there are many things we don't know without the need to imagine an explanation.
The imposition I was referring to is by those of religious faith who expect preferential treatment in society and under the law. Not a reference to you in that regard.
-
Scientific knowledge is tentative, yes - it reflects the best explanation of the facts as we currently know them but is always open to change with new evidence. I don't think philosophy gets us any closer to the truth i.e. reality and prefer to go with believing in things for which we have good evidence (I don't consider personal experiences as good evidence since I cannot verify the experience of the interpretation) and to accept that there are many things we don't know without the need to imagine an explanation.
The imposition I was referring to is by those of religious faith who expect preferential treatment in society and under the law. Not a reference to you in that regard.
The problem is that many people in the West tend to confuse philosophy with religious belief. They are unable to see such matters as Common consciousness, after-life, soul and such things independent of religion.
In India this is not so. Almost every Hindu will be able to distinguish religious mythology, rituals, devotion etc. from the above matters which are seen as philosophical matters that are largely secular.
Even religious beliefs much less philosophical matters, are not imposed on anyone.
Science is just a subset of philosophy. It is like a spectrum with Physics at one end followed by Chemistry...biology...psychology...spirituality. The level of precision and predictability deceases as we move along the spectrum.
-
People have come back from the dead and given their account of their experiences. We have discussed NDE's many times before. There are critical care doctors like Sam Parnia who are very clear that the NDEs are post death experiences.
You want to define death as a final event from which people cannot return and then keep using that definition to conclude that NDE's cannot be post death experiences! That is a ridiculous circular argument.
Not quite as simple as that, is it, Sriram?
Parnia actually casts doubt upon the finality of the phrase "clinical death' by suggesting the following:
Contrary to popular belief, death is not a moment in time, such as when the heart stops beating, respiration ceases, or the brain stops functioning. Death, rather, is a process—a process that can be interrupted well after it has begun.
https://news.stonybrook.edu/facultystaff/stony-brooks-dr-sam-parnia-discusses-reversing-death-on-npr-radio-show-2/
Hence, his assumption is that NDEs occur before the process of dying has reached its conclusion, a position with which I would quite happily concur.
It is also interesting that Parnia, after the generally negative results of his Aware studies, seems to be now focused more on the phenomenon of unexpected cognitive lucidity around the time of death, and especially as it relates to dementia patients near the time of death(paradoxical lucidity or PL). Parnia's study will collaborate with NYU Langone experts to attempt to ascertain what exactly PL is. Significantly this will include EEG measurements in order to assess the importance of any surges in brain activity. As Parnia himself says:
That may be significant because if we could find some structural change, then we might be able to use that as a novel therapeutic target for people who regularly have dementia, or other disorders of consciousness, by trying to activate that circuit and maybe give them more lucidity
https://nyulangone.org/news/new-studies-explore-end-life-cognitive-thought-improved-cardiopulmonary-resuscitation-methods
The suggestion is that surges in electrocortical activity might offer biological insights into Pl in severe dementia and possibly help to explain the NDE phenomenon.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1552526019300950