Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on November 02, 2022, 09:23:40 AM
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I feel like one of those people who go on about the true meaning of Christmas but as a pacifist, my objection hete is not about the red poppy but the desecration of meaning. This, and many other such, are not about remembering the fallen but about self veneration.
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https://www.ppu.org.uk/remembrance-white-poppies (https://www.ppu.org.uk/remembrance-white-poppies)
The white poppy has been worn in the run-up to Remembrance Day for almost ninety years, as a symbol of remembrance and peace.
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I've already had my "You're bringing politics into it. Just wear a poppy' speech because I have a lapel badge with a SSaltire inside the poppy.
When I pointed out that I obtained this from PoppyScotland, and that they had been making them for twenty years, the reply was
"They'r a' brainwashed. Whit d'ye think we fought for?'
They walk among us......
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'As I stroked in that testing five footer for a par, I looked at the poppy lined hole and remembered that first Christmas on the front, when Jerry and us played pitch and putt, and the Hun blighter cheated throughout'
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I've already had my "You're bringing politics into it. Just wear a poppy' speech because I have a lapel badge with a SSaltire inside the poppy.
When I pointed out that I obtained this from PoppyScotland, and that they had been making them for twenty years, the reply was
"They'r a' brainwashed. Whit d'ye think we fought for?'
They walk among us......
There is no obligation to buy one just because someone produces them - that is entirely your choice and your decision to defend.
I think the inclusion of any nationalistic symbol associated with the poppy is simply wrong - the poppy is supposed to be a symbol of remembrance which should reach way beyond national borders. So a poppy with a saltire is no more acceptable than a poppy with a union jack.
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There is no obligation to buy one just because someone produces them - that is entirely your choice and your decision to defend.
I think the inclusion of any nationalistic symbol associated with the poppy is simply wrong - the poppy is supposed to be a symbol of remembrance which should reach way beyond national borders. So a poppy with a saltire is no more acceptable than a poppy with a union jack.
Take that up with PoppyScotland.
Apparently, they first produced a cloth version in the 1970s.
PoppyScotland used to be called the Earl Haig Fund.
The poppy in Scotland has always differed from that of England, right from its' inception.
If the factory, staffed, as in England, by ex-servicemen, felt the need to differentiate, who am I to argue?
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Take that up with PoppyScotland.
Nope - I'm taking it up with you as you bought one and I'm sure you could have easily bought one without a saltire.
If you ram a saltire (or a union jack) onto the poppy I cannot see you aren't sending a message that somehow Scottish (or British) dead are more important for remembrance than other dead. The poppy and remembrance should transcend petty nationalism - not least because many of those dead, particularly in WW1 (and arguably in WW2 due to the legacy of WW1) died precisely because of petty nationalism.
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Nope - I'm taking it up with you as you bought one and I'm sure you could have easily bought one without a saltire.
If you ram a saltire (or a union jack) onto the poppy I cannot see you aren't sending a message that somehow Scottish (or British) dead are more important for remembrance than other dead. The poppy and remembrance should transcend petty nationalism - not least because many of those dead, particularly in WW1 (and arguably in WW2 due to the legacy of WW1) died precisely because of petty nationalism.
You don't need to lecture me on flags.
My grandfather fought at the Somme.
On his return, he threw his four medals in the midden, swore that if he ever came near a union flag again, he would use it as a substite for toilet rolls, and refeused to buy a poppy at any time, though he donated to the Earl Haig fund.
His brother, who also fought for dear old blighty, was slaughtered by the black and tans whilst visiting his cousin in Ireland.
Presumably, if the Earl Haig fund felt perfectly happy making a different poppy from that of England, and, later, a poppy with a Saltire, they had no issues with this, in a time when there was less demand for Scottish autonomy.
That they still manufacture the Saltire and Poppy shows that there is a market for the product.
If it raises money for British Legion (Scotland) then that's fine by me.
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You don't need to lecture me on flags.
Better get used to it while you insist on buying a symbol of remembrance adorned with a nationalistic symbol.
My grandfather fought at the Somme.
My father's favourite uncle was in the RAF in WW2.
On his return ...
My great uncle headed off on a mission in a Beaufighter one day and never returned - no wreckage, no body - lost at sea.
So, what to do eh. A poppy with a flag of St George because he was English. But what if he'd been my great uncle on my mother's side - then a poppy with a saltire because then we would have been Scottish. Or just a poppy with a union jack as in both cases they'd been British.
Well here is a better idea - ditch the nationalist symbols and simply keep the poppy, the symbol of remembrance unadorned, as it should be. Petty nationalism should be kept well away from remembrance, except to ensure we remember that petty nationalism is the reason so many of them died in the first place.
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Tasteful!
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Better get used to it while you insist on buying a symbol of remembrance adorned with a nationalistic symbol. My father's favourite uncle was in the RAF in WW2. My great uncle headed off on a mission in a Beaufighter one day and never returned - no wreckage, no body - lost at sea. So, what to do eh. A poppy with a flag of St George because he was English. But what if he'd been my great uncle on my mother's side - then a poppy with a saltire because then we would have been Scottish. Or just a poppy with a union jack as in both cases they'd been British. Well here is a better idea - ditch the nationalist symbols and simply keep the poppy, the symbol of remembrance unadorned, as it should be. Petty nationalism should be kept well away from remembrance, except to ensure we remember that petty nationalism is the reason so many of them died in the first place.
Yet from the very outset, the controversy - and it was a heated controversy - over the difference in Scottish and English Poppies, even though both were made by the British legion, sparked comment in the Times, debate in the HOC, and even demonstrations outside the Lady Haig factory in Edinburgh....yet the British Legion itself felt no issue in making two different poppies, nor poppies with national flags.
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Yet from the very outset, the controversy - and it was a heated controversy - over the difference in Scottish and English Poppies, even though both were made by the British legion, sparked comment in the Times, debate in the HOC, and even demonstrations outside the Lady Haig factory in Edinburgh....yet the British Legion itself felt no issue in making two different poppies, nor poppies with national flags.
https://youtu.be/8ajHs8tCWew
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Yet from the very outset ...
From the outset the poppy was an international symbol of remembrance, focussing on allied losses - indeed the earliest adopters and promotors of the symbol were French and from the US, based on a poem written by a Canadian.
You seem rather obsessed with a later and narrower use - that of the Royal British Legion, who aren't the arbiters of the use (and misuse) of the poppy in its original international remembrance context.
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From the outset the poppy was an international symbol of remembrance, focussing on allied losses - indeed the earliest adopters and promotors of the symbol were French and from the US, based on a poem written by a Canadian.
You seem rather obsessed with a later and narrower use - that of the Royal British Legion, who aren't the arbiters of the use (and misuse) of the poppy in its original international remembrance context.
Nope.
Simply pointing out that, though the poppy is ubiquitous, from the British Legion's first manufacturing it, it differs in Scotland and England.
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Nope.
Simply pointing out that, though the poppy is ubiquitous, from the British Legion's first manufacturing it, it differs in Scotland and England.
So what.
The issue isn't about whether the poppy manufacturing is different in different countries (and of course poppies are made and sold across the world, not just in England and Scotland). Nope the issue is about mixing up remembrance and petty nationalism, which is the clear implication if you have a poppy with a national flag adorning it, regardless of whether that national flag is the saltire, the union jack, the flag of St George, the Ukrainian flag etc etc.
Given that the reason why so many of those that died did so was petty nationalism it is deeply inappropriate to conflate their remembrance with the very thing that caused their deaths in the first place. And I don't give a stuff whether the British Legion, or their Scottish equivalent allow this - I deeply disapprove. And stop hiding behind their sanction of the nationalistic symbols on poppies. You don't have to buy a poppy with a flag - if you choose to do so that is your decision to defend, not the British Legion etc.
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I tend to be a poppy refusenik, resenting its obligatoriness, but someone at work was flogging these home-knitted ones yesterday, so I bought one. Attachments doesn't seem to be working, so here's a link to it on Flickr. https://flic.kr/p/2nXJjKG
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I tend to be a poppy refusenik, resenting its obligatoriness, but someone at work was flogging these home-knitted ones yesterday, so I bought one. Attachments doesn't seem to be working, so here's a link to it on Flickr. https://flic.kr/p/2nXJjKG
I feel somewhat similar - I really dislike the notion that it has become 'expected' that you must wear a poppy rather than a choice.
I wouldn't mind so much if the poppy symbolism hadn't morphed so much in the past few decades.
Once upon a time the poppy was for remembrance of all those that died in the industrial conflicts of WW1 and WW2, most of whom were conscripts rather than professional, career military people. That seemed right to me as the scale and the nature of the sacrifice, from people who had no choice, seemed immense.
But this has changed completely - now it seems to be all about 'supporting our boys' (even if they are girls) - effectively moving from remembrance and a wish for peace to something that is militaristic, jingoistic and nationalistic. I really dislike that shift and I feel very challenged by the symbolism as it has become. All the worse when people want to overlay overt nationalistic symbolism, such as nationalist flags over what was always a symbol that no one nation had any claim over.
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Your Poppymas carriage is coming
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They only sleep...
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They only sleep...
Err...
"Lest we remember"?
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They only sleep...
Careful now - AM will be along in a minute insisting that the only appropriate manner to sleep under a poppy duvet cover is to pair it with saltire pillows.
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Careful now - AM will be along in a minute insisting that the only appropriate manner to sleep under a poppy duvet cover is to pair it with saltire pillows.
I wasn't aware that the RBL under PoppyScotland made such a thing.
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I wasn't aware that the RBL under PoppyScotland made such a thing.
Better get on to them quick AM - I'm sure you'll want to ensure that people can pair their remembrance poppy symbolism with petty nationalism symbolism as often as possible.
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Better get on to them quick AM - I'm sure you'll want to ensure that people can pair their remembrance poppy symbolism with petty nationalism symbolism as often as possible.
Nope. I'm perfectly happy with the British Legion poppy and Saltire badge, thanks.
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Nope. I'm perfectly happy with the British Legion poppy and Saltire badge, thanks.
But what about all your petty nationalist mates - surely someone wants to ensure they sleep with their heart is covered not just by a remembrance poppy but also a petty nationalist symbol.
Otherwise they might start thinking that dead english people are just as worthy of remembrance as dead scottish people.
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But what about all your petty nationalist mates - surely someone wants to ensure they sleep with their heart is covered not just by a remembrance poppy but also a petty nationalist symbol.
Otherwise they might start thinking that dead english people are just as worthy of remembrance as dead scottish people.
Nope. Just availing myself of products manufactured by ex-servicemen who feel no issue in making a product with the Saltire in it.
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Nope. Just availing myself of products manufactured by ex-servicemen who feel no issue in making a product with the Saltire in it.
I doubt those making poppy products for sale have much say over their design AM.
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Just availing myself of products manufactured by ex-servicemen ...
Which, of course, also includes poppies not adorned with nationalistic symbols and also poppies adorned with non-sottish nationalistic symbols e.g. these:
https://www.poppyscotlandstore.com/products/poppy-union-jack-pin-badge-20l
https://lestweforgetuk.com/product/remembrance-poppy-cross-of-saint-george-flag-pin/?wishlist-action
So given that choice what is the reason you buy a remembrance poppy with a saltire, rather than any other nationalistic symbol or no nationalistic symbol. It isn't because that is all that is available, nor the only way to support ex-servicepeople. It is a choice that you have made and one that you seem to keep side stepping when challenged to defend.
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I doubt those making poppy products for sale have much say over their design AM.
'Ex Servicemen enslaved to petty nationalism', claims Prof!
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'Ex Servicemen enslaved to petty nationalism', claims Prof!
Job for you as a headline writer for the tabloids NS. ;)
But as so often with tabloid headlines - not true.
My point was simply that ex-service personnel employed to make poppy products are unlikely to have any involvement in their design, nor in which particular product the may, or may not, be involved in making.
That would be the same for employees working on the production line for biscuits - yet AM seems to imply that somehow the poppy/saltire combination is approved of by ex personnel simply because they are involved in making them. That is as crazy as claiming that someone's favourite biscuit must be a hob-knob because they are employed on the production line that makes hob-knobs.
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Job for you as a headline writer for the tabloids NS.
But as so often with tabloid headlines - not true.
My point was simply that ex-service personnel employed to make poppy products are unlikely to have any involvement in their design, nor in which particular product the may, or may not, be involved in making.
That would be the same for employees working on the production line for biscuits - yet AM seems to imply that somehow the poppy/saltire combination is approved of by ex personnel simply because they are involved in making them. That is as crazy as claiming that someone's favourite biscuit must be a hob-knob because they are employed on the production line that makes hob-knobs.
I did think the humour would fly way over your head. I just underestimated by how much.
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I did think the humour would fly way over your head. I just underestimated by how much.
Should have put a smiley face after my first sentence - as, yes, I did realise that your tongue was firmly in your cheek.
The rest was aimed at AM, not you.
I'll alter my comment now.
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Job for you as a headline writer for the tabloids NS. ;)
There you go NS - much better.
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Should have put a smiley face after my first sentence - as, yes, I did realise that your tongue was firmly in your cheek.
The rest was aimed at AM, not you.
I'll alter my comment now.
Not sure that helps as much as you think it does. Maybe have a Poppy cocktail and breath in the scent of remembrance, and thrice distilled vodka, made as those in the trenches died to protect.
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Not sure that helps as much as you think it does. Maybe have a Poppy cocktail and breath in the scent of remembrance, and thrice distilled vodka, made as those in the trenches died to protect.
Which you'd need to virtue shame people into feeling obliged to drink before they were allowed to order anything else in every bar and pub from mid Oct to mid Nov.
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Ffs!
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Part of the reasons I hate the over the top and commercialised poppy shite is that it seems entirely at odds with the dignified remembrance of my friends who are serving, or have served in the armed forces. As a lifelong pacifist, I find more in common with them than the ostentatious 'don't forget about them by looking at me' lot.
On Sunday, I will make my way to George Sq in Glasgow as it's the last service in uniform for one of my oldest friends. Last time I went was the 2018 100th anniversary. As then I will have this running through my head.
Suicide In The Trenches
I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
Sassoon
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Part of the reasons I hate the over the top and commercialised poppy shite is that it seems entirely at odds with the dignified remembrance of my friends who are serving, or have served in the armed forces. As a lifelong pacifist, I find more in common with them than the ostentatious 'don't forget about them by looking at me' lot.
On Sunday, I will make my way to George Sq in Glasgow as it's the last service in uniform for one of my oldest friends. Last time I went was the 2018 100th anniversary. As then I will have this running through my head.
Suicide In The Trenches
I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
Sassoon
Yes.
I'm remembering Jim FitzSimmonds, a bomb disposal officer killed on HMS Antelope in the Falklands war.
I knew Jim, mainly through his wife Theresa, who was part of an ecumenical housegroup I attended in the early '80s.
Jim wouldn't have minded me wearining the poppy/saltire - he was independence supporter long, long before I ever was, or, for that matter, the white poppy which I wear below it every Rememberance Sunday.
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Yes.
I'm remembering Jim FitzSimmonds, a bomb disposal officer killed on HMS Antelope in the Falklands war.
I knew Jim, mainly through his wife Theresa, who was part of an ecumenical housegroup I attended in the early '80s.
Jim wouldn't have minded me wearining the poppy/saltire - he was independence supporter long, long before I ever was, or, for that matter, the white poppy which I wear below it every Rememberance Sunday.
I thought the whole point of remembrance was to remember everyone, not just the people you knew. Hence the importance of the Unknown Warrior.
For those we know, we can remember them as we do for others we know - on their birthdays or anniversary of their death, when we are doing things that bring them to mind. But remembrance is surely about those countless thousands who we didn't know personally but who fought and died in war.
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https://uk.yahoo.com/news/stop-poppy-shaming-says-armed-060000430.html
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I thought the whole point of remembrance was to remember everyone, not just the people you knew. Hence the importance of the Unknown Warrior.
For those we know, we can remember them as we do for others we know - on their birthdays or anniversary of their death, when we are doing things that bring them to mind. But remembrance is surely about those countless thousands who we didn't know personally but who fought and died in war.
Rememberance is what you want it to be - what you need it to be.
At our war memorial on Sunday, we will have the wreath laying and bugle as well as the piper....and the prayers will include remembering the miners who worked and died so that the war could be won.
We'll move twenty feet to the right of the war memorial and lay other wreaths at the 'miners cross' - two girders welded together, with the names of eighty men who died in local mines between 1900 and 1984.
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Rememberance is what you want it to be - what you need it to be.
Sure anyone can turn it into anything, but that does mean they should, nor that everything is within the spirit of what remembrance is supposed to be. So if a wears a poppy 'cos they are remembering their gran who died last year' no one can stop them but that isn't what remembrance is supposed to be about.
At its very broadest it is about remembering all who have died (or been injured) during war. More specifically in its original form it was about those who died in WW1 with WW2 included later - only much more recently did it become about all wars. And also there is a caveat about 'who is worthy' - this typically is restricted to those who fought on 'our side' (actually I don't like this as many who died on the 'other side' had no choice in what they were doing), narrower still (and I like this even less) it becomes about the dead of just one country.
At our war memorial on Sunday, we will have the wreath laying and bugle as well as the piper....and the prayers will include remembering the miners who worked and died so that the war could be won.
Yes seems appropriate - those who died in non military occupations because of the war often get forgotten.
We'll move twenty feet to the right of the war memorial and lay other wreaths at the 'miners cross' - two girders welded together, with the names of eighty men who died in local mines between 1900 and 1984.
Now I'm beginning to struggle - which war was responsible for the death of a miner in 1984? I have no issue with remembering those who died in mines at any time, but this doesn't seem to fit with remembrance Sunday to me as that is about those who died or were affected by war.
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Sure anyone can turn it into anything, but that does mean they should, nor that everything is within the spirit of what remembrance is supposed to be. So if a wears a poppy 'cos they are remembering their gran who died last year' no one can stop them but that isn't what remembrance is supposed to be about.
At its very broadest it is about remembering all who have died (or been injured) during war. More specifically in its original form it was about those who died in WW1 with WW2 included later - only much more recently did it become about all wars. And also there is a caveat about 'who is worthy' - this typically is restricted to those who fought on 'our side' (actually I don't like this as many who died on the 'other side' had no choice in what they were doing), narrower still (and I like this even less) it becomes about the dead of just one country.
Yes seems appropriate - those who died in non military occupations because of the war often get forgotten.
Now I'm beginning to struggle - which war was responsible for the death of a miner in 1984? I have no issue with remembering those who died in mines at any time, but this doesn't seem to fit with remembrance Sunday to me as that is about those who died or were affected by war.
Surely it's no business of your's if a community chooses to remember different groups at this time?
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Sure anyone can turn it into anything, but that does mean they should, nor that everything is within the spirit of what remembrance is supposed to be. So if a wears a poppy 'cos they are remembering their gran who died last year' no one can stop them but that isn't what remembrance is supposed to be about. At its very broadest it is about remembering all who have died (or been injured) during war. More specifically in its original form it was about those who died in WW1 with WW2 included later - only much more recently did it become about all wars. And also there is a caveat about 'who is worthy' - this typically is restricted to those who fought on 'our side' (actually I don't like this as many who died on the 'other side' had no choice in what they were doing), narrower still (and I like this even less) it becomes about the dead of just one country. Yes seems appropriate - those who died in non military occupations because of the war often get forgotten. Now I'm beginning to struggle - which war was responsible for the death of a miner in 1984? I have no issue with remembering those who died in mines at any time, but this doesn't seem to fit with remembrance Sunday to me as that is about those who died or were affected by war.
The reason for the joint commemoration is simple. The date marks the time when the victims of the Barony colliery disaster were finally bricked up in the collapsed seam. My father was one of those who laid the bricks at the spot where their remains still lie, being beyond recovery. In 1973, on the unveiling of the cross, a miner who had also served in the army )a D-Day veteran) suggested both sets of dead should be commemorated at the same time. We have done so, each remembrance Sunday. The reason for the joint commemoration is simple. The date marks the time when the victims of the Barony colliery disaster were finally bricked up in the collapsed seam. My father was one of those who laid the bricks at the spot where their remains still lie, being beyond recovery. In 1973, on the unveiling of the cross, a miner who had also served in the army )a D-Day veteran) suggested both sets of dead should be commemorated at the same time. We have done so, each remembrance Sunday.
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The reason for the joint commemoration is simple. The date marks the time when the victims of the Barony colliery disaster were finally bricked up in the collapsed seam. My father was one of those who laid the bricks at the spot where their remains still lie, being beyond recovery. In 1973, on the unveiling of the cross, a miner who had also served in the army )a D-Day veteran) suggested both sets of dead should be commemorated at the same time. We have done so, each remembrance Sunday. The reason for the joint commemoration is simple. The date marks the time when the victims of the Barony colliery disaster were finally bricked up in the collapsed seam. My father was one of those who laid the bricks at the spot where their remains still lie, being beyond recovery. In 1973, on the unveiling of the cross, a miner who had also served in the army )a D-Day veteran) suggested both sets of dead should be commemorated at the same time. We have done so, each remembrance Sunday.
Fair enough - so there is a specific reason why this date makes sense for a commemoration that isn't related to remembrance in its traditional sense as being related to those that died in wars. So this is effectively two distinct sets of commemoration, which happen to be on the same day.
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Surely it's no business of your's if a community chooses to remember different groups at this time?
I'm entitled to an opinion.
But as you'll have seen AM has explained why it makes sense to have these two commemorations on the same day as the minors commemoration marks a particular even which happened to have occurred at this time.
But I think there is a broader issue - the remembrance event has always been about commemorating those that died in war (originally specific wars) - my person opinion is that this should be defended against 'mission creep' and the mission creep I'm most concerned about is shifting from remembering those that died to a kind of 'armed forces day' where we big up 'our boys and girls in the military'. This isn't what remembrance day should be about, in my opinion.
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I'm entitled to an opinion.
But as you'll have seen AM has explained why it makes sense to have these two commemorations on the same day as the minors commemoration marks a particular even which happened to have occurred at this time.
But I think there is a broader issue - the remembrance event has always been about commemorating those that died in war (originally specific wars) - my person opinion is that this should be defended against 'mission creep' and the mission creep I'm most concerned about is shifting from remembering those that died to a kind of 'armed forces day' where we big up 'our boys and girls in the military'. This isn't what remembrance day should be about, in my opinion.
That you are entitled to your opinion doesn't make it any of your business. There might be any number of reasons why a community might do something on Remembrance Sunday, such as here, and that's surely up to them.
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That you are entitled to your opinion doesn't make it any of your business. There might be any number of reasons why a community might do something on Remembrance Sunday, such as here, and that's surely up to them.
Firstly I only expressed an opinion, and actually only in a very soft manner - 'Now I'm beginning to struggle ...'.
But actually I'm not sure it isn't anyone else's business. The concept of remembrance is broadly defined and I don't think that a community has any right to take it way outside of that definition. A community can, of course, choose to commemorate anything they wish, I don't believe however they have the right to insist that that commemoration is part of a remembrance event, with its symbolism etc, unless it fits that broad definition. And I think it is perfectly reasonably for the broader community to take a view - it is, as it were, their business.
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Firstly I only expressed an opinion, and actually only in a very soft manner - 'Now I'm beginning to struggle ...'.
But actually I'm not sure it isn't anyone else's business. The concept of remembrance is broadly defined and I don't think that a community has any right to take it way outside of that definition. A community can, of course, choose to commemorate anything they wish, I don't believe however they have the right to insist that that commemoration is part of a remembrance event, with its symbolism etc, unless it fits that broad definition. And I think it is perfectly reasonably for the broader community to take a view - it is, as it were, their business.
And I accepted that you had a right to that opinion. You seem to struggle with the idea that it is ok to hold an opinion and it not be about something that is your business.
As to you then wanting to dictate to a local mining community what they do remembrance Sunday that seems laughably self imporatant, which is then underlined by you portraying your opinion as equivalent to the broader community.
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Fair enough - so there is a specific reason why this date makes sense for a commemoration that isn't related to remembrance in its traditional sense as being related to those that died in wars. So this is effectively two distinct sets of commemoration, which happen to be on the same day.
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I'll aye remember that ex soldier-cum-miner's response when someone raised the subject with him....
"Aye, son. They're a' jist as deid, whether doon the pit or in France."
Says it all, really.
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I'll aye remember that ex soldier-cum-miner's response when someone raised the subject with him....
"Aye, son. They're a' jist as deid, whether doon the pit or in France."
Says it all, really.
I agree - I think there are many people who died because of their support for the war effort who get forgotten because they weren't in the military.
Miners are one group - another being merchant seamen, who often suffered appalling conditions on ships with no defence themselves from u-boats etc, totally reliant for defence on the Royal Navy who may, or may not, have been present.
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And I accepted that you had a right to that opinion. You seem to struggle with the idea that it is ok to hold an opinion and it not be about something that is your business.
As to you then wanting to dictate to a local mining community what they do remembrance Sunday that seems laughably self imporatant, which is then underlined by you portraying your opinion as equivalent to the broader community.
Actually NS - I never dictated to anyone. My issue was to understand why AM's community were commemorating miners who didn't die due to war on remembrance day. He's explained this to me on the basis of the date of a disaster.
But I'm sorry NS - you are wrong. The use of the remembrance symbolism isn't a free for all that isn't anyone else's business. As AM has pointed out the poppy symbolism of remembrance is in fact a trade mark so you cannot use it for any or all purposes you might wish. If you did so, then it would very much be, someone else's business.
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Actually NS - I never dictated to anyone. My issue was to understand why AM's community were commemorating miners who didn't die due to war on remembrance day. He's explained this to me on the basis of the date of a disaster.
But I'm sorry NS - you are wrong. The use of the remembrance symbolism isn't a free for all that isn't anyone else's business. As AM has pointed out the poppy symbolism of remembrance is in fact a trade mark so you cannot use it for any or all purposes you might wish. If you did so, then it would very much be, someone else's business.
You seemed in the post that I replied to being taken issue with Anchorman's community actions, and suggesting that it was your business what they did as part of their temembrance service - was that not your intention?
The use of a trademarked symbol is an irrelevant strawman to this.
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You seemed in the post that I replied to being taken issue with Anchorman's community actions, and suggesting that it was your business what they did as part of their temembrance service - was that not your intention?
Actually I was trying to understand why commemoration of miners whose deaths wasn't linked to war was happening on this day. AM explained this to me.
But if I strongly disapproved, so what. That would be my opinion and I'd be perfectly entitled to in. And in most cases the community in question would also be entitled to say - 'sod you, none of your business, we are doing it anyway'.
But the use of remembrance symbols such as the poppy isn't like that - see below.
The use of a trademarked symbol is an irrelevant strawman to this.
It isn't a straw man at all. The fact that the poppy is trademarked means that it isn't the case that a community can just decide to use the symbol for whatever purpose they choose and 'it is no-one else's business'. If the poppy is being used for purposes that contravene trade mark it is someone else's business - the holder of the trademark. And the Royal British Legion has taken action against people and organisations whose use of the poppy they felt was not appropriate, and actually that has actually included remembrance events. I suspect if the RBL thought the poppy was being used outside the context of remembrance of people who had died in war they would take a view and potentially take action.
So here is a hypothetical example - imagine a group of anti abortion campaigners decided to run a campaign during the remembrance period that highlighted the numbers of abortions and compared it to the numbers of people killed in war and used the poppy as a symbol in remembrance of all those 'dead babies'. Would this be OK, would this be 'none of our business' and the 'our' includes the holders of the trademark for use of the poppy.
In that example my opinion would be that the use of the poppy would be deeply inappropriate and I'd consider it my business to bring it to the attention of the RBL and their business to prevent further use of the poppy in that context.
AM's example, by the way, is very different to this as it would appear they are holding two separate events, which are on the same day for completely legitimate reasons. And as AM points out there is a legitimate remembrance for miners whose deaths were due to the war effort.
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Nope. I'm perfectly happy with the British Legion poppy and Saltire badge, thanks.
What message is that supposed to convey? Are you remembering the soldiers who gave their lives in wars, but only the Scottish ones? Because that is what it looks like.
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Actually I was trying to understand why commemoration of miners whose deaths wasn't linked to war was happening on this day. AM explained this to me.
But if I strongly disapproved, so what. That would be my opinion and I'd be perfectly entitled to in. And in most cases the community in question would also be entitled to say - 'sod you, none of your business, we are doing it anyway'.
But the use of remembrance symbols such as the poppy isn't like that - see below.
It isn't a straw man at all. The fact that the poppy is trademarked means that it isn't the case that a community can just decide to use the symbol for whatever purpose they choose and 'it is no-one else's business'. If the poppy is being used for purposes that contravene trade mark it is someone else's business - the holder of the trademark. And the Royal British Legion has taken action against people and organisations whose use of the poppy they felt was not appropriate, and actually that has actually included remembrance events. I suspect if the RBL thought the poppy was being used outside the context of remembrance of people who had died in war they would take a view and potentially take action.
So here is a hypothetical example - imagine a group of anti abortion campaigners decided to run a campaign during the remembrance period that highlighted the numbers of abortions and compared it to the numbers of people killed in war and used the poppy as a symbol in remembrance of all those 'dead babies'. Would this be OK, would this be 'none of our business' and the 'our' includes the holders of the trademark for use of the poppy.
In that example my opinion would be that the use of the poppy would be deeply inappropriate and I'd consider it my business to bring it to the attention of the RBL and their business to prevent further use of the poppy in that context.
AM's example, by the way, is very different to this as it would appear they are holding two separate events, which are on the same day for completely legitimate reasons. And as AM points out there is a legitimate remembrance for miners whose deaths were due to the war effort.
And I said your entitled to your opinion but that it's really none of your business if the community links it to mining deaths outside of the war effort.
Creating a hypothetical example of something not being discussed or suggested on the thread is pretty much the defitnition of a strawman.
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At the memorial service in George Sq in Glasgow, there was an interesting reference to the change in the meaning of the words 'front line' over the last 2 and a half years. I fear that some might have committed thought crime in Prof D's eyes and spared some thoughts for relatives who might have died while working in the NHS over Covid.
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What message is that supposed to convey? Are you remembering the soldiers who gave their lives in wars, but only the Scottish ones? Because that is what it looks like.
Exactly. I fail to see how this cannot give an impression other than that the wearer considers Scottish deaths to be somehow more worthy of remembrance than the deaths of other people.
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And I said your entitled to your opinion but that it's really none of your business if the community links it to mining deaths outside of the war effort.
It is someone else's business if they include trademarked poppy symbolism in that event as the trademarked poppy (and a bunch of stuff around it) is only supposed to be used in the context of remembrance of those who died/were injured due to war.
Creating a hypothetical example of something not being discussed or suggested on the thread is pretty much the defitnition of a strawman.
You claimed strawman before I gave a hypothetical example so you really cannot link your straw man claim to my example. Your claim was that the fact that then poppy is a trademarked symbol was a straw man. That isn't correct as the notion of its trademark is absolutely relevant to a discussion as to when and how the poppy symbolism can be legitimately used.
So perhaps you'd like to actually address my hypothetical example. Given your view that the use of the poppy is no-one else's business except those making that decision, I'd sure you'd be perfectly fine with the anti-abortion group using the poppy in this context as how that community chooses to use it is 'none of our business'.
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It is someone else's business if they include trademarked poppy symbolism in that event as the trademarked poppy (and a bunch of stuff around it) is only supposed to be used in the context of remembrance of those who died/were injured due to war.
You claimed strawman before I gave a hypothetical example. Your claim was that the fact that then poppy is a trademarked symbol was a straw man. That isn't correct as the notion of its trademark is absolutely relevant to a discussion as to when and how the poppy symbolism can be legitimately used.
So perhaps you'd like to actually address my hypothetical example. Given your view that the use of the poppy is no-one else's business except those making that decision, I'd sure you'd be perfectly fine with the anti-abortion group using the poppy in this context as how that community chooses to use it is 'none of our business'.
Why would I have any interest in addressing your strawman which has nothing to do with what was being discussed? Just writing lots of words, just means more straw, still irrelevant.
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Why would I have any interest in addressing your strawman which has nothing to do with what was being discussed? Just writing lots of words, just means more straw, still irrelevant.
How odd, you are usually very opinionated NS - surely you have an opinion on my example.
All the odder given that you have spent much of this thread posting images of inappropriate use of the poppy. Your OP even includes the following:
'This, and many other such, are not about remembering the fallen but about self veneration.'
Why have you been posting these images if, as you appear to think, the use of poppy symbolism in whatever manner is none of your business.
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How odd, you are usually very opinionated NS - surely you have an opinion on my example.
All the odder given that you have spent much of this thread posting images of inappropriate use of the poppy. Your OP even includes the following:
'This, and many other such, are not about remembering the fallen but about self veneration.'
Why have you been posting these images if, as you appear to think, the use of poppy symbolism in whatever manner is none of your business.
My opinion is it's an irrelevant strawman.
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Why would I have any interest in addressing your strawman which has nothing to do with what was being discussed?
It is absolutely relevant to what is being discussed as we are discussing appropriate and inappropriate use of poppy symbolism and whether a decision as to whether the use is appropriate or not rests purely with a private individual (or community of individuals), and hence none of our business. Or alternatively whether someone other that that individual or community can legitimately argue that it is their business to determine whether that use is appropriate or not. In the case of the poppy the latter is that case. And not just in theory - the RBL have taken action on a number of occasions against what they deem inappropriate use of the poppy by individuals and groups.
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My opinion is it's an irrelevant strawman.
But you started the thread NS - which is about appropriate and inappropriate use of the poppy. Why on earth would you do this if you felt use, however inappropriate, was none of your business.
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But you started the thread NS - which is about appropriate and inappropriate use of the poppy. Why on earth would you do this if you felt use, however inappropriate, was none of your business.
You are getting yourself confused here. The trademark discussion is what I said was an irrelevant strawman. Thos is not the same as saying that how a community mourns its dead is essentially none of your business.
If you now want to make the point that my take on Poppymas is a purely personal one, then knock yourself out. I agree.
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It is absolutely relevant to what is being discussed as we are discussing appropriate and inappropriate use of poppy symbolism and whether a decision as to whether the use is appropriate or not rests purely with a private individual (or community of individuals), and hence none of our business. Or alternatively whether someone other that that individual or community can legitimately argue that it is their business to determine whether that use is appropriate or not. In the case of the poppy the latter is that case. And not just in theory - the RBL have taken action on a number of occasions against what they deem inappropriate use of the poppy by individuals and groups.
No, the trademark poppy had nothing to do with the service in Anchorman's community. That's why your maundering on is irrelevant to it.
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No, the trademark poppy had nothing to do with the service in Anchorman's community. That's why your maundering on is irrelevant to it.
Well that wasn't clear from his initial description, which is why I asked him about it, and he explained.
So that bit has been done and dusted.
Now perhaps you would like to address the broader issue - do you think that the use of the poppy symbol by an individual or community is none of anyone else's business, however inappropriate the use. Perhaps you might want to use my hypothetical example, or even some of the examples you have posted - if the use isn't anyone else's business why would you post photos with a comment such as:
'This, and many other such, are not about remembering the fallen but about self veneration.'
I suspect you agree with me that the use of the poppy is our business, and specifically is the business of the RBL who have a responsibility to protect the integrity of its use.
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Well that wasn't clear from his initial description, which is why I asked him about it, and he explained.
So that bit has been done and dusted.
Now perhaps you would like to address the broader issue - do you think that the use of the poppy symbol by an individual or community is none of anyone else's business, however inappropriate the use. Perhaps you might want to use my hypothetical example, or even some of the examples you have posted - if the use isn't anyone else's business why would you post photos with a comment such as:
'This, and many other such, are not about remembering the fallen but about self veneration.'
I suspect you agree with me that the use of the poppy is our business, and specifically is the business of the RBL who have a responsibility to protect the integrity of its use.
There was no question in what he said of trademark abuse, and you didn't raise it as that.
And as I have already said, I've expressed my own opinion here.
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The trademark discussion is what I said was an irrelevant strawman.
No it isn't on a thread about the appropriateness of the use of remembrance symbolism of the poppy.
Thos is not the same as saying that how a community mourns its dead is essentially none of your business.
But this was brought up on a thread about remembrance symbolism and commemoration on remembrance Sunday - hardly rocket science to conclude that the miners commemoration might be seen by the community as part of the remembrance events using the remembrance symbolism of the poppy. That's why I asked for clarification, which AM kindly provided.
If you now want to make the point that my take on Poppymas is a purely personal one, then knock yourself out. I agree.
But apparently my 'opinion' is irrelevant and none of my business if a community chooses to commemorate dead using the poppy in whatever manner. SO I come back to my example - firstly what is your 'opinion' on the anti-abortion groups using the poppy for remembrance of the dead babies. Secondly even if you personally disapprove do you think it is no-one's business except for the anti-abortion group how they choose to remember those dead babies, even if that involves using poppy symbolism during the remembrance period?
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There was no question in what he said of trademark abuse, and you didn't raise it as that.
I think you might want to re-read AM's post and my response, which was entirely in the context of formal remembrance symbolism, including the laying of wreaths, which on remembrance sunday, would presumably, use remembrance poppies.
So here it is:
AM - At our war memorial on Sunday, we will have the wreath laying and bugle as well as the piper....and the prayers will include remembering the miners who worked and died so that the war could be won.
Me - Yes seems appropriate - those who died in non military occupations because of the war often get forgotten.
AM - We'll move twenty feet to the right of the war memorial and lay other wreaths at the 'miners cross' - two girders welded together, with the names of eighty men who died in local mines between 1900 and 1984.
Me - Now I'm beginning to struggle - which war was responsible for the death of a miner in 1984? I have no issue with remembering those who died in mines at any time, but this doesn't seem to fit with remembrance Sunday to me as that is about those who died or were affected by war.
AM then clarified the reason for additionally commemorating miners whose deaths weren't due to war at this time, which seemed very appropriate as this marked the date of a disaster.
You really do seem to be arguing for arguing sake NS.
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This is very saddening
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-63624149