Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Harrowby Hall on December 04, 2022, 09:19:50 AM
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My first thought on seeing the recording of the interchange between Mary Hussey and Ngosi Fulami was that Hussey is probably slightly demented. However, the incident did result in apology and removal of Hussey.
On another site, I came across the infomation appended below.
Ngozi Fulani , real name , Mary Headley is a British born citizen of Barbadian descent who changed her name as an adult.
A British citizen who chooses to wear traditional African dress when she's probably never been there in her life.
A British citizen who sets up and runs a charity for black victims of domestic violence, going so far as to refuse to assist women who are mixed race.
A British citizen who needs to explain a 180000 pound discrepancy in her charity's accounts.
A British citizen who has made clear in the not to distant past that the is anti monarchy.
Assuming this is all correct, did the press and the British public jump too soon?
For the record, I abhor racial hatred and discrimination.
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Is there a none of the above option?
Susan Hussey based on the conversation seems racist. Ngozi Fulani seems racist too.
And when you said 'information', you mean incoherent racist rant?
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And when you said 'information', you mean incoherent racist rant?
If it's true, what's racist about it? Are we not allowed to criticise black people? Am I racist if I criticise Kamikwasi Kwarteng or Nutella Braverman? You sound like the uncritical supporters of Israel who start squealing about antisemitism if anyone criticises it.
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If it's true, what's racist about it? Are we not allowed to criticise black people? Am I racist if I criticise Kamikwasi Kwarteng or Nutella Braverman? You sound like the uncritical supporters of Israel who start squealing about antisemitism if anyone criticises it.
Not defending anyone here but it would be nice to know the original source of the listed allegations/facts. I've searched and have found the usual bollocks on GBnews over this sort of issue but can't see anything from more reputable sources.
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If it's true, what's racist about it? Are we not allowed to criticise black people? Am I racist if I criticise Kamikwasi Kwarteng or Nutella Braverman? You sound like the uncritical supporters of Israel who start squealing about antisemitism if anyone criticises it.
Can you read or does your knee post for you?
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Not defending anyone here but it would be nice to know the original source of the listed allegations/facts. I've searched and have found the usual bollocks on GBnews over this sort of issue but can't see anything from more reputable sources.
I did say "IF it's true".
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My first thoughts were that I have on several occasions when I've met someone new who doesn't look British, asked them where they're from, and they turned out to have been born in Britain. It's a bit awkward but one of those things that we can't do much about.
Hussey may have just been making polite conversation - apparently it's a common ice-breaker in royal circles. Was it actually racist for her to think Fulani isn't British?
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My first thoughts were that I have on several occasions when I've met someone new who doesn't look British, asked them where they're from, and they turned out to have been born in Britain. It's a bit awkward but one of those things that we can't do much about.
Hussey may have just been making polite conversation - apparently it's a common ice-breaker in royal circles. Was it actually racist for her to think Fulani isn't British?
You can. You can stop asking people that question!
She is reported to have she repeatedly asked a black British charity boss where she was "really" from, so not accepting the answer that she is British.
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You can. You can stop asking people that question!
She is reported to have she repeatedly asked a black British charity boss where she was "really" from, so not accepting the answer that she is British.
What if someone is born somewhere and then moves away and lives somewhere else. My English friend was born in Ethiopia to English parents. Is he Ethiopian?
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My first thought on seeing the recording of the interchange between Mary Hussey and Ngosi Fulami was that Hussey is probably slightly demented. However, the incident did result in apology and removal of Hussey.
On another site, I came across the infomation appended below.
Ngozi Fulani , real name , Mary Headley is a British born citizen of Barbadian descent who changed her name as an adult.
A British citizen who chooses to wear traditional African dress when she's probably never been there in her life.
A British citizen who sets up and runs a charity for black victims of domestic violence, going so far as to refuse to assist women who are mixed race.
A British citizen who needs to explain a 180000 pound discrepancy in her charity's accounts.
A British citizen who has made clear in the not to distant past that the is anti monarchy.
Assuming this is all correct, did the press and the British public jump too soon?
For the record, I abhor racial hatred and discrimination.
I'd like to know if all the above is true.
I found this:
https://twitter.com/Sistah_Space/status/1597854380115767296?s=20&t=ZXmbtH3ESWkYJpVpqPzNvQ
which confirms some of it. I'd be interested to know how Ms Fulani remembers the transcript in such detail.
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HH,
My first thought on seeing the recording of the interchange between Mary Hussey and Ngosi Fulami was that Hussey is probably slightly demented. However, the incident did result in apology and removal of Hussey.
On another site, I came across the infomation appended below.
Ngozi Fulani , real name , Mary Headley is a British born citizen of Barbadian descent who changed her name as an adult.
A British citizen who chooses to wear traditional African dress when she's probably never been there in her life.
A British citizen who sets up and runs a charity for black victims of domestic violence, going so far as to refuse to assist women who are mixed race.
A British citizen who needs to explain a 180000 pound discrepancy in her charity's accounts.
A British citizen who has made clear in the not to distant past that the is anti monarchy.
Assuming this is all correct, did the press and the British public jump too soon?
For the record, I abhor racial hatred and discrimination.
I have no idea whether some of that, all of it or none of it is true. That’s not what Lady Susan Hussey asked about though – rather she asked where Ngosi Fulami was “from”, reportedly repeatedly when she wasn’t satisfied with the initial answer (“yes, but where are you really from?”) – presumably in a way she wouldn’t have done had Fulami been white and in Western dress.
Of course that’s awful, but I’m increasingly uncomfortable too with the piling on of opprobrium on someone who stepped down immediately this came to light, and can’t help but be reminded of the fate of Lady Isobel Barnett after she was publicly shamed:
“In her last years, Lady Barnett became reclusive and eccentric. In 1980 she was found guilty of shoplifting, and fined £75 for stealing a can of tuna and a carton of cream worth 87 pence from her village grocer. This brought her briefly back into the public eye; four days later on 20 October, she was found dead at her home in Cossington, Leicestershire.
A coroner's inquest subsequently ruled that Lady Barnett killed herself with an overdose of painkillers in her bath…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobel_Barnett
Let’s hope not.
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What if someone is born somewhere and then moves away and lives somewhere else. My English friend was born in Ethiopia to English parents. Is he Ethiopian?
What does that have to do with someone asking a black person where they are from, then repeatedly asking where they are really from - not accepting the answer given?
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What if someone is born somewhere and then moves away and lives somewhere else. My English friend was born in Ethiopia to English parents. Is he Ethiopian?
Well maybe next time you see him you should beat him down with questions? Get him to confess to being the wrong colour?
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HH,
I have no idea whether some of that, all of it or none of it is true. That’s not what Lady Susan Hussey asked about though – rather she asked where Ngosi Fulami was “from”, reportedly repeatedly when she wasn’t satisfied with the initial answer (“yes, but where are you really from?”) – presumably in a way she wouldn’t have done had Fulami been white and in Western dress.
Of course that’s awful, but I’m increasingly uncomfortable too with the piling on of opprobrium on someone who stepped down immediately this came to light, and can’t help but be reminded of the fate of Lady Isobel Barnett after she was publicly shamed:
“In her last years, Lady Barnett became reclusive and eccentric. In 1980 she was found guilty of shoplifting, and fined £75 for stealing a can of tuna and a carton of cream worth 87 pence from her village grocer. This brought her briefly back into the public eye; four days later on 20 October, she was found dead at her home in Cossington, Leicestershire.
A coroner's inquest subsequently ruled that Lady Barnett killed herself with an overdose of painkillers in her bath…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isobel_Barnett
Let’s hope not.
That's sad.
wrt. Hussey it's not really clear to me exactly why she resigned. I would have thought she could have explained herself and apologised for her offensive questioning.
Ngozi Fulani will have to account for her own actions or misdeeds if any - but that is entirely a different issue.
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My first thoughts were that I have on several occasions when I've met someone new who doesn't look British, asked them where they're from, and they turned out to have been born in Britain. It's a bit awkward but one of those things that we can't do much about.
Hussey may have just been making polite conversation - apparently it's a common ice-breaker in royal circles. Was it actually racist for her to think Fulani isn't British?
'look British'
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My first thoughts were that I have on several occasions when I've met someone new who doesn't look British, asked them where they're from, and they turned out to have been born in Britain. It's a bit awkward but one of those things that we can't do much about.
What on earth do you mean by 'doesn't look British' - British people come in all shapes sizes and ... ethnicities. But sure, people sometimes make embarrassing and cringy comments - but surely if someone answers, 'I'm British, I'm from London' that should be the end to it - move on, cover your embarrassment.
Hussey may have just been making polite conversation - apparently it's a common ice-breaker in royal circles.
But she wasn't, was she. Sure her first (ill judged) comment might have been acceptable, if embarrassing. But it was her doubling down - simply not accepting the answer she was give as if she knew better than Fulani whether she was British or not.
Was it actually racist for her to think Fulani isn't British?
Yes - firstly it was racist to assume that someone who was black and perhaps had a name that wasn't traditionally British wasn't British. Secondly to not accept the response from someone born in Britain that that were British because that person is black is deeply racist.
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What on earth do you mean by 'doesn't look British'
I mean that the person looks African, or Indian, etc.
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What on earth do you mean by 'doesn't look British'
I mean that the person looks African, or Indian, etc.
You do realise a substantial number of people who look African or Asian are British, whilst conversely a substantial number of people who look "White British" are Polish or French or American..... oh fill in the rest of the blanks, you racist fool.
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What on earth do you mean by 'doesn't look British'
I mean that the person looks African, or Indian, etc.
David Lammy and Rishi Sunak are both British, indeed English, by birth and upbringing, but by your definition don't look British. What do Britons look like?
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You do realise a substantial number of people who look African or Asian are British, whilst conversely a substantial number of people who look "White British" are Polish or French or American..... oh fill in the rest of the blanks, you racist fool.
Really? Well I never.
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Really? Well I never.
And that's all you have to say?
You have just stated that you make a judgement based on the colour of someone's skin. You do know how appalling you are sounding right now?
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What on earth do you mean by 'doesn't look British'
I mean that the person looks African, or Indian, etc.
Simplistic and racist in one short sentence: well done you (and for the avoidance of doubt this is NOT a compliment).
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Really? Well I never.
Fuck off
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What on earth do you mean by 'doesn't look British'
I mean that the person looks African, or Indian, etc.
WTF :o
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Spud,
I mean that the person looks African, or Indian, etc.
You're confusing ethnicity with nationality. They're completely different things.
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David Lammy and Rishi Sunak are both British, indeed English, by birth and upbringing, but by your definition don't look British. What do Britons look like?
What do Africans look like?
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Spud,
What do Africans look like?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Kallis
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What do Africans look like?
People who are born in Africa can look just the same as people born anywhere in the world.
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And that's all you have to say?
You have just stated that you make a judgement based on the colour of someone's skin. You do know how appa
lling you are sounding right now?
Oh, he probably thinks black-skinned people are living under the curse of Cain, or the curse of Ham, or some such.
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Spud,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Kallis
Does he look African to you?
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Does he look African to you?
What are you on about? What do you think Africans should look like?
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What are you on about? What do you think Africans should look like?
Does he look African or not?
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Does he look African or not?
There is no such thing as looking African. Being African is about where you are born not what you look like.
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There is no such thing as looking African. Being African is about where you are born not what you look like.
What about looking as if you were born in Africa?
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What about looking as if you were born in Africa?
Same thing.
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Same thing.
"African" can refer to individuals who trace their ancestry to the indigenous inhabitants of Africa. Therefore to look African can be to look as though one's ancestry can be traced to the indigenous inhabitants of Africa.
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"African" can refer to individuals who trace their ancestry to indigenous inhabitants of Africa.
Lady Hussey asked where she was from meaning what's their nationality and wouldn't accept the answer given (allegedly). You talked about people looking African, you didn't say that they look to have indigenous African heritage. You questioned whether Jacques Kallis looked African yet he was born in Africa, so is African. As said earlier, ethnicity and Nationality are different things.
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What about looking as if you were born in Africa?
What on earth does that mean.
You either were born in Africa - e.g. Jacque Kallis or you weren't - e.g. David Lammy.
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Is there a none of the above option?
Susan Hussey based on the conversation seems racist. Ngozi Fulani seems racist too.
And when you said 'information', you mean incoherent racist rant?
I'm not sure she did seem racist, I just though she came across as completely ignorant. She didn't appear to me to be malicious about it, she just very apparently couldn't understand why what she was saying was being interpreted as it understandably was.
I get that the effect was discriminatory, but I don't think that the intent was, and whilst it's always difficult to absolutely judge intent (and I understand why legally they try to phrase the laws so as to avoid getting into establishing intent because it's an incredibly difficult standard establish) but I think we are at a stage where we need to start differentiating in at least some cases between a racist effect without a racist intent behind it, and the more grotesque and overt racism that is (thankfully) less common than it once was.
O.
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What about looking as if you were born in Africa?
A word of advice, Spud: when you're in a hole, stop digging.
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Spud,
What about looking as if you were born in Africa?
What, like Richard Dawkins, Chris Froome, Peter Hain, Richard Leakey, Doris Lessing, Elon Musk, Gary Player, Helen Suzman, Charlize Theron and J.R.R Tolkien – all of whom were born in Africa? Being born in Africa doesn’t “look” like anything. Africanism (and Europeanism) is a status that has nothing to do with place of birth or with skin colour.
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What do Africans look like?
The modal average is two arms, two legs and two eyes, but the mean is slightly less than that. Otherwise, the data's all over the place.
O.
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Does he look African to you?
Given that he's South African, how can he not? Two legs, two arms, two eyes... fits so far.
O.
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Besides which, no-one thinks of themself as African (or European, Asian etc). They think of themselves as Namibian, South African, Kenyan, Egyptian, etc.
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"African" can refer to individuals who trace their ancestry to the indigenous inhabitants of Africa. Therefore to look African can be to look as though one's ancestry can be traced to the indigenous inhabitants of Africa.
I note the edit.
Now Spud, I accept that she may have been trying to ask what the ethnicity of the person was but did so in a clumsy way, not understanding how here question might come across and not being careful to word it in a way to make that clear, and not realising what offence she was causing. That may be due to her age, her upbringing or something else. You seemed to be going down the same path and you must see that from the various responses you have had surely.
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And another thing: super-Saharan Africans, from Morocco, Egypt, Libya, etc., are largely white.
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And that's all you have to say?
You have just stated that you make a judgement based on the colour of someone's skin. You do know how appalling you are sounding right now?
A judgment about where they are from, yes. What's wrong with that? Other factors influence that judgment once you start talking to them, but your first impression might be based on their skin colour (and their name and attire).
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And another thing: super-Saharan Africans, from Morocco, Egypt, Libya, etc., are largely white.
Britons are generally fairer skinned because they live further from the equator.
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Britons are generally fairer skinned because they live further from the equator.
But generalities aren't worth a bean when you are talking to an individual person in front of you.
Jacques Kallis is (South) African - born and bred in (South) Africa.
David Lammy is British - born and bred in Britain.
Jacques Kallis is white, David Lammy is black - their ethnicity has nothing to do with their nationality.
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A judgment about where they are from, yes. What's wrong with that? Other factors influence that judgment once you start talking to them, but your first impression might be based on their skin colour (and their name and attire).
Sure - but when you ask the question and the black person in front of you says 'I'm British, born in London' you'd have to be spectacularly 'tone-deaf' to continue banging on about 'where do you really come from' rather than feel mortified about your prejudiced presumption.
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Spud, you seem to be well down the path I was on a few years back. Take some friendly advice: reconsider your opinions. Don't go down that path. Think about what they mean. I'll leave it there.
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Unfortunately Spud is not alone, but in the company of Farage and Douglas Murray misrepresenting census data and only regarding white Britons as British.
https://www.ft.com/content/c466d158-0e40-44cd-9dff-c15d466f06f6
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Unfortunately Spud is not alone, but in the company of Farage and Douglas Murray misrepresenting census data and only regarding white Britons as British.
Okay, finally someone has expressed what you are all thinking. No that is completely wrong. I totally accept black people born in Britain as British. I'm not racist - some of my best friends are Asian. All I was saying in my first post was that in the past I have made the mistake of assuming someone is from somewhere else based on their skin colour, simply because most people in the town where I live are white. I know parts of cities in the UK have much higher proportions of non-whites, where I would be less likely to make the mistake.
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Okay, finally someone has expressed what you are all thinking. No that is completely wrong. I totally accept black people born in Britain as British. I'm not racist - some of my best friends are Asian. All I was saying in my first post was that in the past I have made the mistake of assuming someone is from somewhere else based on their skin colour, simply because most people in the town where I live are white. I know parts of cities in the UK have much higher proportions of non-whites, where I would be less likely to make the mistake.
OK, that's good.
It is easy to make wrong assumptions, and rather annoying when they (here Lady Hussey) persist with them, possibly to make a point.
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I totally accept black people born in Britain as British.
Then why would you come out with such awful comment such as 'What about looking as if you were born in Africa?'
I'm not racist - some of my best friends are Asian.
I don't think it is for you to judge whether or not you are racist - that is for others, who might be on the receiving end of your comments to judge. Few people overtly accept they are racist (or sexist etc) but many are even if they don't think they are or don't recognise that they are.
All I was saying in my first post was that in the past I have made the mistake of assuming someone is from somewhere else based on their skin colour ...
Is that racist - sure is.
Is that acceptable - nope.
Is that understandable - yes, I guess I can understand why someone might hold that prejudiced view depending on how narrow their experiences may have been.
But, and this is a big BUT. Hussey went way, way further. When her 'where are you from' question was answered as 'Hackney, London, I'm British', she doubled down continuing to insist that the woman couldn't be Hackney, London, British because of the colour of her skin.
Is that racist - sure is.
Is that acceptable - nope.
Is that understandable - nope.
I cannot understand how someone who surely must have realised they'd made a huge faux pax in assuming someone who was black wasn't born in London would continue to dig themselves further and further into a hole. And (more importantly) create more and more distress to the person being, let's face it, interrogated as to where they were 'really from'.
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Then why would you come out with such awful comment such as 'What about looking as if you were born in Africa?'
Because the comment was relating to a South African man whose appearance differs significantly from most people born in Africa. There's nothing inherently awful about the comment.
I don't think it is for you to judge whether or not you are racist - that is for others, who might be on the receiving end of your comments to judge. Few people overtly accept they are racist (or sexist etc) but many are even if they don't think they are or don't recognise that they are.
Agreed.
Is that racist - sure is.
How so? Isn't racism characterized by a belief that my race is superior to another?
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...
How so? Isn't racism characterized by a belief that my race is superior to another?
racism
/ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
"a programme to combat racism"
the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
"theories of racism"
Similar: racial discrimination racialism racial prejudice/bigotry xenophobia chauvinism
bigotry bias intolerance anti-Semitism apartheid
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Okay, finally someone has expressed what you are all thinking. No that is completely wrong. I totally accept black people born in Britain as British. I'm not racist - some of my best friends are Asian. All I was saying in my first post was that in the past I have made the mistake of assuming someone is from somewhere else based on their skin colour, simply because most people in the town where I live are white. I know parts of cities in the UK have much higher proportions of non-whites, where I would be less likely to make the mistake.
A mistake. Yes. You didn't seem to be saying it was a mistake before.
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My first thought on seeing the recording of the interchange between Mary Hussey and Ngosi Fulami was that Hussey is probably slightly demented. However, the incident did result in apology and removal of Hussey.
On another site, I came across the infomation appended below.
Ngozi Fulani , real name , Mary Headley is a British born citizen of Barbadian descent who changed her name as an adult.
A British citizen who chooses to wear traditional African dress when she's probably never been there in her life.
A British citizen who sets up and runs a charity for black victims of domestic violence, going so far as to refuse to assist women who are mixed race.
A British citizen who needs to explain a 180000 pound discrepancy in her charity's accounts.
A British citizen who has made clear in the not to distant past that the is anti monarchy.
Assuming this is all correct, did the press and the British public jump too soon?
For the record, I abhor racial hatred and discrimination.
I think Ngozi Fulani has said repeatedly that the focus should be on the issues tackled by the charity, Sistah Space, ie domestic violence rather than the conversation with a member of the Royal Household. And she has also said that rather than Susan Hussey resigning over the incident it would be better for there to be more training in the Palace to avoid unintentionally causing offence.
I only ask people in the UK where they are originally from if they have a foreign accent, or I have heard them speaking a foreign language. If they have darker skin or features associated with a different region of the world, I might ask where their parents are from. Though migration means many generations could have settled in another country. For example Malays in Sri Lanka are an ethnic group whose distant ancestors were originally from Indonesia/ Malaysia and migrated when Sri Lanka was a Dutch colony and again when it was a British colony.
I think the questions asked at the reception show a lack of knowledge of the British slave trade and the British Royal Family's role in that trade. Susan Hussey may have ancestors who profited from the slave trade. I think people who could be seen to be representing an institution such as the Monarchy at receptions should have received training by now on how to avoid sounding racist otherwise the accusations of institutional racism will have some justification. If Susan Hussey moved Fulani's hair at the Reception to read her name badge - which also seems a bit patronising and presumptuous of Hussey - and if Fulani was wearing African traditional dress at the reception, Susan Hussey could have asked whether Fulani's name or traditional dress was from any specific region in Africa, if Hussey was curious about Fulani's heritage.
I am not seeing the problem with Fulani changing her name to an African name or wearing traditional dress. If her ancestors were slaves forcibly removed from Africa and transported to Barbados and suffered all kinds of well-documented horrors to serve and help the British Empire to grow and prosper and they had their names changed to English names by their slave-owners and were given their slave-owners surname, I would think it makes sense to change your name to a name in line with your heritage as a rejection of your ancestor's' slavery and bondage to the British and a rejection of the British slave trade and colonialism.
It would be difficult to trace your actual heritage to a specific region in Africa if your ancestors were abducted as part of the slave trade. Changing your name is a different issue from being of British nationality. Muhammad Ali changed his name from Cassius Clay to make that point about slave-ownership, but he was still American.