Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on August 29, 2023, 09:43:25 PM
-
Hmmm... bit worrying if this happens from data entry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66644369
-
Hmmm... bit worrying if this happens from data entry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66644369
Actually, it makes me a bit more confident.
It seems (I'm inferring this from the BBC report and my knowledge of how computer systems work, so I could be wrong) that a certain flight plan was entered that caused a problem with the system. If the system had been allowed to handle it automatically, it would have caused a safety issue, but the issue was detected and the system failed safe. Passenger delays is a better outcome than two planes colliding in mid air.
-
Actually, it makes me a bit more confident.
It seems (I'm inferring this from the BBC report and my knowledge of how computer systems work, so I could be wrong) that a certain flight plan was entered that caused a problem with the system. If the system had been allowed to handle it automatically, it would have caused a safety issue, but the issue was detected and the system failed safe. Passenger delays is a better outcome than two planes colliding in mid air.
I worry about a system where data entry has that affect and isn't stopped before it happened.
-
I worry about a system where data entry has that affect and isn't stopped before it happened.
With complex computer systems there are many edge cases and, unfortunately, they can't all be tested. Or they can, but only at a massive cost. You can, however, plan for when an unhandled edge case occurs and, in this case, the plan was to fail safe, which is what happened.
-
With complex computer systems there are many edge cases and, unfortunately, they can't all be tested. Or they can, but only at a massive cost. You can, however, plan for when an unhandled edge case occurs and, in this case, the plan was to fail safe, which is what happened.
Acceptable data entry is not what I would describe as an edge case, particularly on a critical system like this.
-
Acceptable data entry is not what I would describe as an edge case, particularly on a critical system like this.
It may have looked perfectly fine when they entered it. We don't know what the issue was.
Correct validation on data entry is almost impossible to achieve in some circumstances. As a simple example, can you tell me how to validate an email address at data entry time?
-
It may have looked perfectly fine when they entered it. We don't know what the issue was.
Correct validation on data entry is almost impossible to achieve in some circumstances. As a simple example, can you tell me how to validate an email address at data entry time?
Data entry can, indeed, be difficult to validate but in the case of an air traffic control system, you both can, and must, ensure that data entry is strictly controlled.
-
Data entry can, indeed, be difficult to validate but in the case of an air traffic control system, you both can, and must, ensure that data entry is strictly controlled.
Yes, but do you know what went wrong and what needs to be controlled? Do you know how to validate a flight plan (I don't)?
For example, suppose, when the plan was entered it was fine, but some regulation changed later that rendered it dangerous. How would you have validated that?
Or suppose the flight plan was fine but some beacon it relied on suddenly had to be taken down for repair whilst the aircraft was already en route. Would you have thought of that? How would you validate such a flight plan given part of it became invalid after the aircraft took off?
This is a very complex system we are talking about and foreseeing every possible failure mode in advance is impossible. There is no practical way to eliminate every possible failure and certainly not by validating data in advance. The system failed safe in this instance, causing a lot of inconvenience, but it could have been a lot worse.
-
Yes, but do you know what went wrong and what needs to be controlled? Do you know how to validate a flight plan (I don't)?
For example, suppose, when the plan was entered it was fine, but some regulation changed later that rendered it dangerous. How would you have validated that?
Or suppose the flight plan was fine but some beacon it relied on suddenly had to be taken down for repair whilst the aircraft was already en route. Would you have thought of that? How would you validate such a flight plan given part of it became invalid after the aircraft took off?
This is a very complex system we are talking about and foreseeing every possible failure mode in advance is impossible. There is no practical way to eliminate every possible failure and certainly not by validating data in advance. The system failed safe in this instance, causing a lot of inconvenience, but it could have been a lot worse.
Your first question would be about allowing an upgrade without testing it for retro implications. It's not a data entry problem.
The second is an asset failure, again not a data entry failure.
ETA - And if either of those cases were not thought of and tested, then the test team is useless.
-
Of course for some people the effects were devastating.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/exclusive-we-had-to-abandon-our-27k-jet-to-cannes-for-our-daughter-s-eighth-birthday-because-of-air-traffic-control-chaos/ar-AA1fT7ms
-
Your first question would be about allowing an upgrade without testing it for retro implications. It's not a data entry problem.
The second is an asset failure, again not a data entry failure.
ETA - And if either of those cases were not thought of and tested, then the test team is useless.
Those were just ideas I thought of off the top of my head. You have no idea what caused this and you have no idea about the design and construction of complex software systems. I’m telling you that what you ask for is impossible because I do have such an idea, at least on the latter point.
-
Of course for some people the effects were devastating.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/exclusive-we-had-to-abandon-our-27k-jet-to-cannes-for-our-daughter-s-eighth-birthday-because-of-air-traffic-control-chaos/ar-AA1fT7ms
That link is broken for me. But I can guess what it’s about.
I promise you, a missed birthday treat can be devastating but two aeroplanes colliding in mid air would be even more devastating.
-
Those were just ideas I thought of off the top of my head. You have no idea what caused this and you have no idea about the design and construction of complex software systems. I’m telling you that what you ask for is impossible because I do have such an idea, at least on the latter point.
As do I.
-
That link is broken for me. But I can guess what it’s about.
I promise you, a missed birthday treat can be devastating but two aeroplanes colliding in mid air would be even more devastating.
Try this one
https://newsfeeds.media/we-had-to-abandon-our-27k-jet-to-cannes-for-daughters-8th-birthday/
Your guess seems to have misled you in terms of you missing my sarcasm
-
Some details of the outage coming through
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-06/uk-air-traffic-software-misread-two-spots-on-map-causing-outage