Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on April 21, 2025, 06:50:13 AM
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Written by Lucy Mangan who describes herself as “a committed atheist”, whatever that is?
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2025/apr/21/pilgrimage-the-road-through-the-alps-review-so-wonderful-that-my-faith-in-celebrities-is-restored
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Do you have a view as to what it might be?
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Do you have a view as to what it might be?
Dear Seb Toe,
God Dodger :)
And I see you are also a fan of wee Albert, so here he is at his very best, enjoy❤️
"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations.
Gonnagle.
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"I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations.
Well in that case I would suspect one, or many authors of the books and one or many librarians curating those books. I would not suspect goddidit.
And to make the leap to the universe - well substitute natural and physical laws/properties for authors/librarians and job done. Again no need to goddidit. To equate lack of complete understanding with god is classic god of the gaps non-sense.
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Dear Prof,
Biscuits :-[ take them.
I post academic stuff, you mock, I post probably the greatest mind the world has ever known, you mock.
What about one of your own, big noise in the world of Atheism.
“Darwin’s dangerous idea,” Dennett writes, is that Bach’s music, Christianity, human culture, the human mind, and Homo sapiens “all exist as fruits of a single tree, the Tree of Life,” which “created itself, not in a miraculous, instantaneous whoosh, but slowly, slowly.” He asks, “Is this Tree of Life a God one could worship? Pray to? Fear? Probably not.” But, he says, it is “greater than anything any of us will ever conceive of in detail worthy of its detail. . . . I could not pray to it, but I can stand in affirmation of its magnificence. This world is sacred.”
To my mind, saying exactly what Einstein is saying.
it is “greater than anything any of us will ever conceive of in detail worthy of its detail. . . . I could not pray to it, but I can stand in affirmation of its magnificence.
Affirmation.
the action or process of affirming something.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Prof,
Biscuits :-[ take them.
I post academic stuff, you mock, I post probably the greatest mind the world has ever known, you mock.
I'm not mocking Gonners - I just disagree with the premise that you'd somehow conclude 'god' from the library example.
What about one of your own, big noise in the world of Atheism.
What is this 'world of atheism' you speak of gonners. There is nothing that binds atheists together except not believing in something. Is there a 'world' of people who don't believe in Thor, or a 'world' of people who don't believe in leprechauns.
“Darwin’s dangerous idea,” Dennett writes, is that Bach’s music, Christianity, human culture, the human mind, and Homo sapiens “all exist as fruits of a single tree, the Tree of Life,” which “created itself, not in a miraculous, instantaneous whoosh, but slowly, slowly.” He asks, “Is this Tree of Life a God one could worship? Pray to? Fear? Probably not.” But, he says, it is “greater than anything any of us will ever conceive of in detail worthy of its detail. . . . I could not pray to it, but I can stand in affirmation of its magnificence. This world is sacred.”
To my mind, saying exactly what Einstein is saying.
it is “greater than anything any of us will ever conceive of in detail worthy of its detail. . . . I could not pray to it, but I can stand in affirmation of its magnificence.
Affirmation.
the action or process of affirming something.
Gonnagle.
Well I would argue that you need to see these things from two perspectives, one objective and one subjective. So, yes in an objective sense Bach's music is certainly the product of human neurophysiology and also just physics in its most fundamental sense, just as a magnificent sunset is physics. But from a human subjective perspective the objectivity doesn't alter the impact that it may have on us as individual humans in a subjective manner.
But I also think that a magnificent sunset is somewhat devalued if you try to claim it to be the product of some man-made god. That ascribes an objective importance to humans that I don't think we have. Nature (and Bach) to my mind are so much more awesome when considered to be what they actually are objectively while also recognising how important they feel to us subjectively. To blur the distinctions by shoe-horning 'god' devalues both the magnificent objectivity of nature (and how irrelevant we are as humans in a cosmic sense) and the importance of subjective emotions to us as humans.
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Do you have a view as to what it might be?
I'm the one asking the question.
As far as I know, you are an atheist. Would you, as Lucy Mangan has, describe yourself as a committed atheist?
Do you think atheists like yourself should be committed?
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Do you think atheists like yourself should be committed?
When Vlad told his friends earlier that he was going be a comedian and write some funny online content...they all laughed.
They're not laughing now!
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When Vlad told his friends earlier that he was going be a comedian and write some funny online content...they all laughed.
They're not laughing now!
Dear Seb,
Come on! never mind the God question, be human for ten seconds, that was funny, Vlad old boy, thank you for bringing a smile and a chuckle to my life ;)
Gonnagle.
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As far as I know, you are an atheist.
You don't know as much as you think you do!
Which kind of spoils your last statement, sorry!
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You don't know as much as you think you do!
Which kind of spoils your last statement, sorry!
Sorry for the mix up. Trying to think why I had you down as an atheist.
A committed atheist would at the very least be someone who had a commitment to merely lacking faith in God. But I'm stretched to think about how that differs from being uncommitted. We may never find out since if atheists were to have a statement of faith it could well be "Ve ask ze qvestions, not you"
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Sorry for the mix up. Trying to think why I had you down as an atheist.
A committed atheist would at the very least be someone who had a commitment to merely lacking faith in God. But I'm stretched to think about how that differs from being uncommitted. We may never find out since if atheists were to have a statement of faith it could well be "Ve ask ze qvestions, not you"
I'll bite, as an atheist.
I find the idea of being 'committed' to it somewhat nonsensical. The only rationale that makes sense as a path to atheism is that the various claims somehow don't make sense for one reason or another. To be committed to the idea that those claims don't make sense would be to somehow stop listening to the claims, to not just not care but to actively avoid hearing more in case something suddenly starts to add up for you.
I can guess that the 'committed' refers to the notion of following the evidence, having a rationale and the like, in which case it's not the atheism to which they're committed, but rather a rational philosophy - at best I think it's a clumsy expression, at worst it's just nonsensical so far as I can see. Ultimately, the only person who can tell you what she means is her.
Or the gods, obviously, because they know everything :)
O.
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Sorry for the mix up. Trying to think why I had you down as an atheist.
A committed atheist would at the very least be someone who had a commitment to merely lacking faith in God. But I'm stretched to think about how that differs from being uncommitted. We may never find out since if atheists were to have a statement of faith it could well be "Ve ask ze qvestions, not you"
I don't get the "committed" bit either.
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I don't get the "committed" bit either.
He neither - committed to what?
I've also hear people use the term 'convinced atheist', but this also seems almost to imply that the person claims to know that god does not exist, which seems to be a step too far. I think adding these terms is a kind of 'yes, I really, really am atheist' approach. Perhaps because there are some theists who seem to assume that in their heart of hearts atheists really deep down believe god exists but are in denial (hence the non-sense goddodging pejorative term).
But news for those folk - for this atheist it is completely the reverse - in my heart of hearts and really deep down I do not believe that god exists. But for a while I tried to convince myself (against my real belief) that god existed. I was an atheist in denial - I wasn't goddodging, but atheism-dodging. I came to a point where I stopped pretending - and recognise I did not believe in god as my conscience had told me all along. Ah the inner peace when you can finally accept who you are and accept on the outside what you feel on the inside.
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And yet, Lucy Mangan the Guardian journalist professes to be a committed Atheist.
Has she or is she letting the side down?
Has her rejection of God some how gone wrong?
Is this woman a pariah now amongst the non religious fraternity?
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And yet, Lucy Mangan the Guardian journalist professes to be a committed Atheist.
Apparently so - but if you want to know why she described herself thus I suggest you address that to her.
Has she or is she letting the side down?
Letting what side down - from where I stand atheists don't represent a side any more than people who don't play football represent a side.
Has her rejection of God some how gone wrong?
Does she reject god or just not believe in god - again a question for her.
Is this woman a pariah now amongst the non religious fraternity?
What fraternity (see my comment about 'representing a side'). She's entitled to describe herself in any way she feels appropriate. And it will be for her to justify any terms she uses not you, me or anyone else on this MB.
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And yet, Lucy Mangan the Guardian journalist professes to be a committed Atheist.
Has she or is she letting the side down?
Has her rejection of God some how gone wrong?
Is this woman a pariah now amongst the non religious fraternity?
The above is a prime example of someone with an unhealthy obsession with some people that he fantasises are something that they clearly are not.
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And yet, Lucy Mangan the Guardian journalist professes to be a committed Atheist.
Has she or is she letting the side down?
Has her rejection of God some how gone wrong?
Is this woman a pariah now amongst the non religious fraternity?
What a strange wee world you live in, Vlad.
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And yet, Lucy Mangan the Guardian journalist professes to be a committed Atheist.
Has she or is she letting the side down?
Has her rejection of God some how gone wrong?
Is this woman a pariah now amongst the non religious fraternity?
Of course not.
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What a strange wee world you live in, Vlad.
Maybe Gordon, but if there are Committed atheists going about don’t you think the public Should be as well informed as possible?
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Maybe Gordon, but if there are Committed atheists going about don’t you think the public Should be as well informed as possible?
Generally speaking, I don't think the public care how many atheists or theists there are going about as long as they behave themselves - and I don't recall reading or hearing concerns about rampaging gangs of any variations of atheists or theists.
Tell you what though, here in Scotland the last census (2022) showed that the numbers of people saying that religion played no part in their lives has increased dramatically (note: this doesn't mean they are all atheists), so it seems unlikely that the presence of atheists would be the 'talk of the Steamie' here in Scotland.
Perhaps your imagination is going through another overactive spell.
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Generally speaking, I don't think the public care how many atheists or theists there are going about as long as they behave themselves - and I don't recall reading or hearing concerns about rampaging gangs of any variations of atheists or theists.
Tell you what though, here in Scotland the last census (2022) showed that the numbers of people saying that religion played no part in their lives has increased dramatically (note: this doesn't mean they are all atheists), so it seems unlikely that the presence of atheists would be the 'talk of the Steamie' here in Scotland.
Perhaps your imagination is going through another overactive spell.
I think you’ll find attendance at steamies has declined even further with the loss not entirely a positive thing. Still as you brought it up we can see the decline in church going as another symptom in the decline of the collective activity. Think the decline in mass viewing of TV.
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I think you’ll find attendance at steamies has declined even further with the loss not entirely a positive thing. Still as you brought it up we can see the decline in church going as another symptom in the decline of the collective activity. Think the decline in mass viewing of TV.
Perhaps the decline in church going is simply reflective of the decline of religiosity in general, as is the case here in Scotland as the last census confirmed.
I'd be hesitant to draw comparisons with the likes of TV watching though since I'd imagine (though I've no personal experience to call on) that while Christian church services still contain the same basic elements they did decades ago: hymns, prayers, sermons and bible readings, how TV is consumed has changed dramatically with technological changes: there is now streaming 'on demand', copious channels to choose from and programmes that never appear on terrestrial channels.
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Maybe Gordon, but if there are Committed atheists going about don’t you think the public Should be as well informed as possible?
Who would care? I'm not actually sure what a 'committed' atheist is; maybe that they don't think of themselves as an agnostic atheist? But, either way, I can't see why the public in general would give a flying fuck. (https://i.imgur.com/htw8DF1.gif)
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God Dodger :)
What, exactly, is this 'god' thingy that people are 'dodging'?
In discussions after your triumphant return, I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'God'. Our Alan is pretty explicit about what he means, as is Vlad, at least most of the time (don't mention simulated universes), but your good self, not so much (although I may have missed something).
You can hardly accuse people of dodging something that you can't define or explain... :)
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Perhaps the decline in church going is simply reflective of the decline of religiosity in general, as is the case here in Scotland as the last census confirmed.
I wonder if only a committed atheist could detach corporate religion from the general decline of corporate activity.
I was waiting for someone to appeal to the census in the light of your colleague Professor Davey going on about the unreliability of Self Reporting. The census must be the most egregious case of self reporting. As you pointed out not all church or place of worship non-attendee is atheist so we'd have to look at definitions and evidence to guage the extent and there is always the suspicion of argumentum ad populum couched in there.
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But, either way, I can't see why the public in general would give a flying fuck. (https://i.imgur.com/htw8DF1.gif)
Since that might be the normal status of the public over most things I wonder if that can be conclusive.
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I wonder if only a committed atheist could detach corporate religion from the general decline of corporate activity.
I was waiting for someone to appeal to the census in the light of your colleague Professor Davey going on about the unreliability of Self Reporting. The census must be the most egregious case of self reporting. As you pointed out not all church or place of worship non-attendee is atheist so we'd have to look at definitions and evidence to guage the extent and there is always the suspicion of argumentum ad populum couched in there.
I'd say the formal census is probably as reliable as any questionnaire can be, in that it is a formal survey (you have to complete is) and it is used for a range of purposes: it reflects the current situation, allows comparisons with previous census results and informs planning - I think I'm right in saying there is a census where you are.
Why are so so greatly troubled that there might be (shock, horror) atheists on the loose?
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I'd say the formal census is probably as reliable as any questionnaire can be, in that it is a formal survey (you have to complete is) and it is used for a range of purposes: it reflects the current situation, allows comparisons with previous census results and informs planning - I think I'm right in saying there is a census where you are.
Why are so so greatly troubled that there might be (shock, horror) atheists on the loose?
What you have to remember Gordon, is, as a nation we are still getting over the shock of working men wearing caps during the King's speech.
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I wonder if only a committed atheist could detach corporate religion from the general decline of corporate activity.
What on earth are you on about!!
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What you have to remember Gordon, is, as a nation we are still getting over the shock of working men wearing caps during the King's speech.
In the cinema I always take my bunnet off.
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I was waiting for someone to appeal to the census in the light of your colleague Professor Davey going on about the unreliability of Self Reporting. The census must be the most egregious case of self reporting.
Sure the census can and has been criticised - most notably for its leading question (What is your religion?) which produces higher reporting of religion and in particular christianity than other surveys with more neutral questioning.
But the census, and similar surveys such as BSA are about subjective opinion, belief and interpretation. You cannot 'prove' that someone who ticks 'christian' isn't by checking against some factual definition. Attendance isn't like that at all - it is matter of fact, not a matter of opinion or belief. You are either in church or you are not - fact. And you can verify those facts by actually measuring people who actually are in church rather than just asking people whether they were in church. And the factual 'actual attendance' approach typically shows that real attendance (a matter of fact) is about half of claimed attendance.
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Maybe Gordon, but if there are Committed atheists going about don’t you think the public Should be as well informed as possible?
Why should the public be informed - sounds as if you consider someone being atheist as being inherently a risk to the public (which would be weird seeing as probably about one in three of the public are ... err ... atheist).
So what do you want to do about it - perhaps you think atheists should be required to wear a badge to indicate their atheism. Hmm, maybe that won't go far enough for you - perhaps in your mind they pose so much of a risk that they should be rounded up, deported or incarcerated. Maybe that isn't enough - perhaps you think they should be 'got rid of'.
Vlad's version of 1930s Germany?
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What, exactly, is this 'god' thingy that people are 'dodging'?
In discussions after your triumphant return, I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'God'. Our Alan is pretty explicit about what he means, as is Vlad, at least most of the time (don't mention simulated universes), but your good self, not so much (although I may have missed something).
You can hardly accuse people of dodging something that you can't define or explain... :)
Dear Stranger,
Where have you been I missed you❤️ Anyway, God Dodging, yes I suppose it is a bit of a cheap shot, but that is exactly what you do in your arguments, you dodge, body swerve, avoid anything that is different or out of the norm.
And just to end, this young lady who wrote this article we a tenuously debating, which God is this committed Atheist trying to get closer to, is that what God Dodgers Atheists are trying to do.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Stranger,
Where have you been I missed you❤️ Anyway, God Dodging, yes I suppose it is a bit of a cheap shot, but that is exactly what you do in your arguments, you dodge, body swerve, avoid anything that is different or out of the norm.
And just to end, this young lady who wrote this article we a tenuously debating, which God is this committed Atheist trying to get closer to, is that what God Dodgers Atheists are trying to do.
Gonnagle.
Wow, just wow. I'm rummaging around in the Axminster looking for my lower jaw. I asked you specifically to define what you thought people were dodging, which you totally dodged by accusing me, without evidence or any examples, of dodging something that you seem desperate to avoid defining.
You just couldn't make this shit up. Well, I couldn't, it seems to be second nature to you. This must be the one of the most blatant examples of doublethink I've ever actually seen in my life.
Can you define the 'God' you think people are dodging? Because if you can't (or won't) then your accusation is literally meaningless; just nonsensical gibberish.
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Maybe Gordon, but if there are Committed atheists going about don’t you think the public Should be as well informed as possible?
How do you propose that the public be well informed?
Go back to public information films?
Newspaper adverts?
A poster campaign on the sides of busses... that's one of your favourites?
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How do you propose that the public be well informed?
Go back to public information films?
Newspaper adverts?
A poster campaign on the sides of busses... that's one of your favourites?
Don’t know...How about Satnav? ....”In 500 yards, at the committed atheist, turn left”
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Don’t know...How about Satnav? ....”In 500 yards, at the committed atheist, turn left”
Ah, I see now...you want all of them to be marked somehow so they can be recognised for navigating purposes.
That's a bit 1930s isn't it, Herr Vlad?
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Don’t know...How about Satnav? ....”In 500 yards, at the committed atheist, turn left”
Must be terrifying for Vlad with his bizarre mindset. Every third person you meet likely to be an atheist - which supermarket checkout queue to choose just in case the checkout person is an atheist!! You'll likely never know as atheists are unlikely to make it known, just quietly getting on with their lives relaxed with their lack of belief in god.
And for every church going christian there are probably 6 atheists. But, of course you'll know exactly who those one in 20 who regularly attend church.
As the old adage goes:
Q. When I meet someone new, what should I do to find out whether they are a churchgoer without seeming to pry?
A. You won't have to do anything - they'll make sure you know they go to church within the first 30 minutes of meeting.
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Don’t know...How about Satnav? ....”In 500 yards, at the committed atheist, turn left”
Dear Vlad,
Well I don't know! It does have a certain ring to it, "Just popping down to the committed for a quick pint" wonder what kind of Decor they would have :o
Gonnagle.
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Must be terrifying for Vlad with his bizarre mindset. Every third person you meet likely to be an atheist - which supermarket checkout queue to choose just in case the checkout person is an atheist!! You'll likely never know as atheists are unlikely to make it known, just quietly getting on with their lives relaxed with their lack of belief in god.
And for every church going christian there are probably 6 atheists. But, of course you'll know exactly who those one in 20 who regularly attend church.
As the old adage goes:
Q. When I meet someone new, what should I do to find out whether they are a churchgoer without seeming to pry?
A. You won't have to do anything - they'll make sure you know they go to church within the first 30 minutes of meeting.
All I asked was "what is a committed atheist". I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.
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Dear Vlad,
Well I don't know! It does have a certain ring to it, "Just popping down to the committed for a quick pint" wonder what kind of Decor they would have :o
Gonnagle.
Indeed Mr G, Done up like a Wethergodexistsornotspoons.
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All I asked was "what is a committed atheist". I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.
That's not all you asked though - you also asked 'but if there are Committed atheists going about don’t you think the public Should be as well informed as possible?' That is what has prompted the replies you are seeing.
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All I asked was "what is a committed atheist". I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.
Says the person who wants atheists to be identifiable in public. Pot and kettle.
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Says the person who wants atheists to be identifiable in public. Pot and kettle.
Dear Prof,
Good idea :) remember back in the day the wee badges going around, always reminded me of the star trek emblem, happy days :o
Gonnagle.
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Says the person who wants atheists to be identifiable in public. Pot and kettle.
No, I'm only joking.
In any case I said committed atheists, not your usual common or garden, bog standard, humdrum, beige atheist.