Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Science and Technology => Topic started by: horsethorn on March 10, 2013, 08:51:07 PM
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I think perhaps it would be useful to have an 'evidence' thread, incuding the info about Egypt, C14 and other dating methods, geological info et al, so it is available to refer to when the creationists echo their unfounded assertions.
There's been some really useful and interesting posts and links, and it would be a shame to lose them.
Please note, only peer-reviewed, scientifically accepted information, logical conclusions, or links to these.
No assertion, discussion or argument. If you wish to discuss a post on this thread, start a new thread.
ht
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Here's a site I use a lot.
It gives up-to-date info on what's happening on the Egyptology front
http://egyptology.blogspot.co.uk/
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Excellent, thanks AM
I'll add this:
http://www.plesiosaur.com/creationism/index.php
and this:
http://www.talkorigins.org
(Feel free to add links to specific pages on either)
ht
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I know this is slightly off topic, but it bursts a few bubbles as far as the most famous mask in history goes.
It is presented by a well known Egyptologist, and sheds some light on the Akhenaten/Amarna period.
A bit long, but worth a watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxN1hm1TmJ0
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This site gives correlation, from an Israeli pov, of the documented campaign in Palestine of Sheshonq I, also recorded in the Old Testament.
http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Relief_and_Stelae_of_Pharaoh_Shoshenq_I:_Rehoboam’s_Tribute,_c._925_BCE
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The name YhWH in Egyptian inscriptions
http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2010/s10010053.htm
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The Merenptah Stela;
First mention of "Israel" in Egyptian records.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/merenphatvictorystele.htm
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I thought it would be useful to have a link to these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
ht
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An interesting perspective in the Thera/Santorini eruption, leading to the fall of Minoan Crete and the dating of several chronoligies using geology and foundation deposit archaeology.
http://tinyurl.com/avqd9zs
Moderator: link amended due to length
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Tiny url would help, AM, as that link is buggering the formatting.
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Tiny url would help, AM, as that link is buggering the formatting.
I don't like these obfuscated URLs. Here's a URL that explains why
http://tinyurl.com/y8ufsnp
Moderator: If you click on it, you deserve what you get ;)
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Sorry, folks, I'm not sure what you're on about. All I know is that my screenreader deals with the address OK.
I apologise for the inconvenience; I'll try to find a more acceptable, academic discussion with an easy-access address.
Again, apologies.
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It's been fixed by a mod, don't worry about it, AM.
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Here's an interesting link to the work at the Abydos site...where evidence of predynastic and early dynastic structures are still being uncovered and re-excavated.
http://www.dainst.org/en/project/abydos?ft=all
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On a note about fossils:
http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/
And on evolution in general:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
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http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/creation.htm
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The Ebla Tablets may hold some crucial significance for Bible Scholars (though their date doesn't fit the YEC model)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla_tablets
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A serious look at Atenism showing why it could never really have influenced Judaism.
http://www.osirisnet.net/docu/akhenat/e_akhen3.htm
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http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages1/introduction.htm
gives details about royal personages from dyn XVII-XX, and some of the ruling priests of Thebes from dyn XXI, from the latest research details gleaned from examining their mummies.
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Why David Rohl's so-called 'new Chronology' cannot stand.
http://www.bga.nl/en/discussion/echroroh.html
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Well I use this site.. :)
http://www.damselsfairies.co.uk/facts.htm
If you don't think they are facts... well you haven't had my personal experiences! ;)
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Well I use this site.. :)
http://www.damselsfairies.co.uk/facts.htm
If you don't think they are facts... well you haven't had my personal experiences! ;)
Actually the 'types' page has given me a few ideas for LARP }:->
I might have to spilt this off into a thread entitled 'Evidence' (with the quotes) ;)
ht
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I like the look of this site and one day will spend some time here......!
http://humanorigins.si.edu/
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www.archaeologica.org/NewsPage.htm
www.newscientist.com/
www.sciam.com
www.talkorigins.org
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The youtube chanels of a science journalist with a geology degree - he discusses creationism and global warming denial:
http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54
http://www.youtube.com/user/Potholer54debunks
I particularly enjoy the 'carbon dating doesn't work -- debunked' video :)
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Video of the "Merenpthah Stela", first proof positive outside Scripture, of the existance of Israel in Cannan c1208BC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2TP0pGJOjc
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A Wiki article on the Elephantine Papiri, and a Temple of YHWH in Egypt, which might indicate a fulfilled Isaiah scripture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri
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The text of the "Nazereth inscription"
dating from the reign of Tiberius or Claudius, gives an interesing slant on the Resurrection:
http://www.formerthings.com/nazareth_inscription.htm
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Interesting details of Ebla in the second half of the third millenium BC - the putative YEC date for the flood.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ebla/hd_ebla.htm
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The solar boat of Hetepheres I, Great Royal Wife of Sneferu, dyn IV - before the traditional YEC flood date.
http:www.guardians.net/egypt/khufu.htm
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The solar boat of Hetepheres I, Great Royal Wife of Sneferu, dyn IV - before the traditional YEC flood date.
http:www.guardians.net/egypt/khufu.htm
Fascintaing, thanks for this, Jim
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Some more evolution related news:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/03/neutral-biodiversity/
I hope this doesn't get misrepresented by certain folks as representing a scientific rejection of evolution ::)
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Some more evolution related news:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/03/neutral-biodiversity/
I hope this doesn't get misrepresented by certain folks as representing a scientific rejection of evolution ::)
It will when they say stuff like “Our work shows that evolution wants to be diverse,” anthropomorphising the process.
But isn't this just genetic drift? Some of the comments suggest that the article has over-simplified the original paper.
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Some more evolution related news:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/03/neutral-biodiversity/
I hope this doesn't get misrepresented by certain folks as representing a scientific rejection of evolution ::)
It will when they say stuff like “Our work shows that evolution wants to be diverse,” anthropomorphising the process.
But isn't this just genetic drift? Some of the comments suggest that the article has over-simplified the original paper.
Well, its a popular press magazine - it kinda has to be simplified for non-scientists like me to understand it ;)
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Interesting evidence for veracity of the Book of Jeremiah, and the Babylonian captivity.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=13409
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“A throwaway detail in the Old Testament turns out to be accurate and true. I think that it means that the whole of the narrative takes on a new kind of power.”
Wishful thinking and ignores shit loads of evidence showing much of the OT narrative to be bogus.
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I wasn't commenting on the article, TS: simply posting the link.
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Interesting evidence for veracity of the Book of Jeremiah, and the Babylonian captivity.
Bugger me with a burnt stick if that isn't a comment about the article.
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Interesting evidence for veracity of the Book of Jeremiah, and the Babylonian captivity.
Bugger me with a burnt stick if that isn't a comment about the article.
Actually, it is quite interesting. It would be more interesting if they'd quoted the pasage from Jeremiah.
Plus of course we've no way of knowing if it was a common name, or if it was a title - in which case it isn't necessarily the same person.
However, there's nothing wrong with accepting that some of the details in the OT are accurate - after all, Baker Street really exists.
ht
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Found it
Jeremiah 39:3 And all the princes of the king of Babylon came in, and sat in the middle gate, even Nergalsharezer, Samgarnebo, Sarsechim, Rabsaris, Nergalsharezer, Rabmag, with all the residue of the princes of the king of Babylon.
ht
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However, there's nothing wrong with accepting that some of the details in the OT are accurate - after all, Baker Street really exists.
I didn't say all the details were bogus. EG there was a place called Jericho but it didn't fall like the Bible states.
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Some stunning artworks created in the third millenium BC in Mesopotamia (The Fertile Crescent.....Ur, Ebla, Sumer, Akaad, etc)
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/trdm/hd_trdm.htm
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Interesting news article on some new research and how the term 'Living Fossil' is misleading:
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/34927/title/The-Falsity-of-Living-Fossils/
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Evidence from Israel of human activity c 40,000 BC.
The Carmel Caves
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/carmel.html
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An interesting article on paleolithic artifacts found in Israel.
http://www.originsnet.org/mindep.html
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Psametik II (greek Psammeticus). last of the important DYN XXVI kings to invade Israel/Palestine in a major way.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/psamtik2.htm
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The so-called "Moabite stone" which gives insight into 9th century BC relations between Moab and Israel, and refers to the House of David....the first inscription to confirm David's existance outside Scripture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele
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Joseph in Egypt?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/history/joseph.shtml
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Not particularly important historically - though chronologically dating to c2450BC - this is a new and stunning view of the dyn V mastaba tomb of Ty.
http://www.osirisnet.net/mastabas/ty/e_ty_01.htm#
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Some stunning artwork from the tomb of Great Royal Wife Meresankh (III) of dyn IV - c2560BC
http://euler.slu.edu/~bart/egyptianhtml/kings and Queens/MeresankhIII.html
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http://tinyurl.com/mvjtqv2
http://tinyurl.com/m6dzy9r
(MOD: urls shortened to retain size of screen)
Actual history, not the shit found in the Bible.
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An informative and sometimes amusing educational resource on world history, including stuff from 15,000 years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yocja_N5s1I&list=PLBDA2E52FB1EF80C9
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Watched the first episode, well worth it.
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Can't say all of the humour tickles me, but it keeps it nice and light-hearted.
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Use of c14 dating to confirm the antiquity of early dynastic Egypt;
Oxford University.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2010/100618.html
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Interesting new finds relating to dino embryo fossils:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130410131216.htm
I wonder if this'll be another "scientists found blood (which wasn't actually blood) in dinosaur bones!" creationist claim...
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A good site overall, this particular Tour Egypt page gives a view into the techniques of pottery dating, essential in forming a reliable chronology.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pottery.htm
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Israel in Babylon?
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=13409
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Dating Egyptian pottery
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pottery.htm
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Just a quick link
http://community.berea.edu/scienceandfaith/essay08.asp
Some interesting and useful stuff in that and the other essays.
ht
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Giza Secret Revealed: How 10,000 Pyramid Builders Got Fed
http://news.yahoo.com/giza-secret-revealed-10-000-pyramid-builders-got-125146214.html
Not by slaves.
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An article about Mernieth, the first (or possibly second? ) female king of Egypt, in the twenty-ninth century BC.
http://www.egyptological.com/2013/04/merneith-the-first-queen-of-egypt-11839
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An intriguing article on the "Shashu/Hapiru", the name of Yahweh in Egyptian, and a putative link to Exodus.
http://tinyurl.com/kgv5zv7
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I thought this was interesting with regard to natural selection 'at work'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22611143
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Interesting story about one of the earliest avian fossils yet found.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22695914
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That's one scary chicken :)
Good article though.
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...and here's what you've all been waiting for:
http://tinyurl.com/k237ugz
Pliosaurids were a long-lived and cosmopolitan group of marine predators that spanned 110 million years and occupied the upper tiers of marine ecosystems from the Middle Jurassic until the early Late Cretaceous. A well-preserved giant pliosaurid skull from the Late Jurassic Kimmeridge Clay Formation of Dorset, United Kingdom, represents a new species, Pliosaurus kevani.
It's the most powerful predator of all time, and it's called Kevan.
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My take on Pliosaurus kevani:
http://plesiosaur.com/plesiosaurs/weymouth.php
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When someone finds one made of opal let us know.
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When someone finds one made of opal let us know.
So it's not enough being biggest and best, it has to be made of opal as well?
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My take on Pliosaurus kevani:
http://plesiosaur.com/plesiosaurs/weymouth.php
"In the case of P.kevani we went over the skill millimetre by millimetre,"
Shouldn't that be "skull"?
That's my proof reading for the day. :D Great read, though. Thanks Richard.
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When someone finds one made of opal let us know.
So it's not enough being biggest and best, it has to be made of opal as well?
Finding it while making your living room bigger would be nice.
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My take on Pliosaurus kevani:
http://plesiosaur.com/plesiosaurs/weymouth.php
"In the case of P.kevani we went over the skill millimetre by millimetre,"
Shouldn't that be "skull"?
That's my proof reading for the day. :D Great read, though. Thanks Richard.
Thanks for the correction.
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https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/945794_517861018267261_1624833138_n.jpg
Nice image showing the intermediate stages of turtle evolution.
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An interesting, if slightly simplistic, look at Egyptian prehistory from c500,000bc - 3100bc
http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/0egyptintro/2aegypt/
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An 'Amarna letter' found at Akhetaten, capital of Neferkheperure waenre Akhenaten, from the client Canaanite king of Jerusalem, mentioning 'hapiru' - the word can also be rendered 'apiru' .
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/a-abdu-heba1.htm
An unbiased definition of Hapiru/Habiru can be found on the encyclopaedia Britannic site at:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/254690/Hapiru
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Seems to be a bit like the Greek 'barbarian', which applied to pretty much all non-Greek speakers.
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Interesting article on a highly developed port in the riegn of Khufu (dyn III) over four thousand years ago, indicating the advanced nature of the Egyptian Old Kingdom administrative system
http://luxortimesmagazine.blogspot.ca/2013/04/a-new-discovery-4500-years-old-port-40.html
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A link to a study of the increasing aridity of the Nile Valley from c5oooBC-1,500BC through dental examination.
No flood detected...
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/chew-mummy-teeth-tell-ancient-egypt-drought-6C10645032
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A reasonably in-depth study of Egyptian prehistory, concentrating on 5-3000BC - dates for the YEC concept of Genesis.
http://www.egyptorigins.org/prehistory.htm
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A reasonable overview of Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic sites in the Middle East - from a Biblical archaeologist,
http://www.drshirley.org/rel433/Neolithic.html
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Interesting just how much information you can get out of one piece of cracked stonework!
http://arkysite.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/the-edinburgh-casing-stone-a-piece-of-giza-at-the-national-museum-of-scotland/
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Good pic of the 'Scorpion' macehead, showing a very well developed proto-Pharonic iconography, and therefore established civilisation, before c3100BC
http://www.ashmolean.org/ash/faqs/q005/q005004.php
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For anyone interested in Iron Age Britain, this is interesting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-23896997
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New dating for Egypt....using c14
From the BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23947820
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A nice little video about the whole "when have you seen a dog turn into a cat?" (and similar) question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0wwhSlo1NI
Not about dating methods etc, but still relevant to the intentions of the thread.
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Something's afoot.
(Sorry)
A little mystery from Israel, courtesy of the Daily Wail.
http:www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359396/Archaeologists-baffled-ancient-Egyptian-sphinx-discovered-northern-Israel.html
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Dinosaur feathers:
http://io9.com/5840854/dinosaur-feathers-discovered-in-canadian-amber
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I came across this site.
There's interesting data about meso-Palaeolithic Israel.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/qterms/qt/Qesem-Cave.htm
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From the Independant,
A new take on Homo Erectus:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/perfectly-preserved-18-millionyearold-skull-could-rewrite-history-of-human-evolution-8887039.html
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Interesting. There's going to be a lot of restudying of fossils going on I reckon.
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A thought provoking insight into the death of Tutankhamun, from Channel 4.
This one's well worth a look.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/tutankhamun-the-mystery-of-the-burnt-mummy/4od
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This is a link for those who still cling on to "Akhenaten the monotheist".
http://luxortimesmagazine.blogspot.fr/2013/11/new-findings-at-tuthmosis-iii-mortuary.html
It shows that worship, on the lines of the existing mortuary cult model, existed well into the reign of Neferkheperure Akhenaten, bursting the bubble (as if it were not already burst) of the 'theory' of the 'first monotheist.
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A thought provoking insight into the death of Tutankhamun, from Channel 4.
This one's well worth a look.
Jim, thanks for this, a fascinating programme. The idea of the mummy catching light due to spontaneous combustion; the fact Tut was buried in the wrong tomb - that created a twist in the eventual outcome - the flash flood that afterwards left sediment which became the perfect camouflage, enabling his tomb to remain undiscovered for centuries..... wonderful, good old (young) Tut!
Just glad, also, that his mummy was returned to it's tomb. I know it probably sounds daft (it's only an old mummy), but I think this is right. All those thousands of years ago, sacred rituals, prayers etc would have been performed at his burial. It is only respectful to honour these practices, albeit many years later.
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SweetPea;
The gleam of gold shouldn't blind us to the fact that Tut's burial was not a kosher one.
1. The tomb he landed up with wasn't meant for him.
2. No other Egyptian kings tomb shows his successor doing priestly stuff.
3. Half the stuff there was ' borrowed' from another burial - probably Ankheperure Neferneferuaten (Nefertiti ruling as king)
4. Tut's semi-embalmed body was stored upside down long enough for the oils to solidify in his brain case!
5. Even the famous mask was modified - the face plate being Tut's, but the rest belonging to someone else!
As for Royal mummies? most ended up after being robbed by officialdom in two Royal cache tombs (DB 320 and KV 35)
They are now in the Cairo museum.
Have a look at this site.
http:www.anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages1/introduction.htm
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Jim
Yes, the programme explained that Tut's successor stole his intended tomb. But the successor is virtually unknown, to most; he had his tomb robbed..... so, some may say, a kind of karma for the rotten trick he played on the young king.
Have to ask you about Tut's mask. I went to the original Tutankamun exhibition at the British Museum in 1972. Queued for 4 hours - it was worth every minute. But what I never understood was, the mask, I saw on display, was not all shiny and perfect as seen in many pictures, but very much more battered. So, did I see the 'real' mask? Something tells me I did, because surely, in it's dilapidated state, it was more authentic. Don't know.....
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SweetPea:
Tutankhamun is not really important.
Who preceded and succeeded him are, though,
The predecessor was Ankheperure Neferneferuaten, one of the most controversial figures in Egyptology.
Some believe this king was, in fact, TWO kings with the same prenomen.
Others such as myself feel that this was Nefertiti - Tut's stepmother, acting first as her husband's co-regent, then as king in her own right for about two years.
Most of the statues in the "treasury", the second coffin and quartzite sarcophagus, and canopic coffinettes in Tut's tomb belonged to her burial...wherever that was.
Nicholas Reeves, an eminent Egyptologist, and leader in the field of the Amarna period, gave the following lecture about the mask in New York's Metropolitan Museum of art, and it is really worth a look.
http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxN1hm1TmJ0
What you saw in London WAS the real deal. I've benn hands on with it in 1980!
There are other Royal masks though...from the twenty first dynasty, especially that of Psusennes I, which are, IMO, more magnificent!
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Jim
Well, of course, Tutankhamun is so well-known amongst those that are not scholars of Egyptology because of the story surrounding the discovery of his tomb, with all it's treasures; and in modern day too.
Thanks for the Youtube video, I will certainly have a look! :)
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Interesting report about DNA extraction from early human remains that are 400,000 years old.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25193442
Gordon
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Neanderthals might have developed complex language structures
http://www.archaeology.org/news/1687-hyoid-bone-tongue-speech-neanderthals
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Neanderthals might have developed complex language structures
http://www.archaeology.org/news/1687-hyoid-bone-tongue-speech-neanderthals
Language does not need complex speech.
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Nor speech at all Mr.Strange. Now twirl you bullroarer. I will make smoke signals in reply!
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I will make smoke signals in reply!
Blown out your arse as usual.
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http://www.archaeology.org/news/1728-140115-scotland-broxmouth-steel
Gives a report on steel use in Scotland c 5oo BC
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New Article on the reamins at Mt Carmel, Israel...13,000 years old...kinda puts the YEC dates out a bit!
http://www.archaeology.org/news/1758-140123-israel-phytolith-natufian
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New Article on the reamins at Mt Carmel, Israel...13,000 years old...kinda puts the YEC dates out a bit!
http://www.archaeology.org/news/1758-140123-israel-phytolith-natufian
YEC's just say it's a mistake or conspiracy of atheists.
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Which YECs are saying it's an atheist conspiracy, those remains on Mt Carmel Mr. Strange?
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Which YECs are saying it's an atheist conspiracy, those remains on Mt Carmel Mr. Strange?
"To really understand what is wrong with belief in millions of years, we need to go back to the early 19th century and study the origin of this idea. This unique and interesting lecture, based on Dr. Mortenson’s PhD research, will clearly show that the idea was not the result of just letting the rocks and fossils “speak for themselves” but rather comes from anti-Biblical worldviews (or philosophical assumptions) being imposed on the geological evidence. The talk explains the key men who helped develop the idea of millions of years, one of the geologically competent Christians who opposed those theories, and the subsequent consequences of the church’s compromise with millions of years. Even non-Christians would find this lecture thought-provoking."
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/08/21/yes-millions-of-years/
For just one.
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Earliest footprints outside Africa discovered in Norfolk
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26025763
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This looks exciting:
http://luxortimesmagazine.blogspot.co.uk/
The remains of Psametik I have been identified in Sais, Egypt. The area may very well reveal the reamins of other dyn XXVI kings - such as Nekhau (Neco),and Wahibre (Hophra) mentioned in Scripture.
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An interesting discussion on this morning's BBC Breakfast (circa 08.15) on Dyslexia - the incidence of which seems to have grown exponentially over the last 20 years - from just under 5000 in the mid 1990s to 104,000 a couple of years ago. During the discussion, which probably warrants a separate thread in and of itself, one of the debaters noted that there is a lot of hype around coloured lenses to help dyslexic people with their reading, even though there is no scientific evidence that supports the hype. His 'opponent', a spokeswoman for the British Dyslexia Association, explained that she is dyslexic, wears coloured lens and they help her with her reading, something that many other dyslexics confirm. She argued that this experiential evidence is just as valid as the 'hard' scientific evidence against the lenses.
Apologies for moving away from Egyptology and other exciting topics!! ;)
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A new(ish) translation of an inscription from the time of Ahmose (dyn XVIII) of Egypt which might re-align chronology in the Near East by putting it back five decades.
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2014/04/ancient-egyptian-weather-report-describes-result-of-ma
ssive-volcanic-eruption/102673
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Evidence of Palaeolithic activity in South Africa:
http://archaeology.org/news/2336-140725-south-africa-kathu
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They're going to have to re-write the prehistory of the Middle and Near East...
http://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2014/research/mummification/
suggests a far more sophisticated culture in Egypt and extensive trade links with Turkey at least 700 years earlier than suspected...now links between Egypt and Turkey are pushed way into the fifth millennium BC.
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1.2 million year old tool discovered.
An amazing find!
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/12/2014/1-2-million-year-old-stone-tool-discovered-in-turkey
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This looks interesting
http://www.livescience.com/49489-oldest-known-gospel-mummy-mask.html
A possible fragment of Mark dating before the end of the first century.
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Significant discovery in modern Iraq, supporting the Jewish Exile in Babylon:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/simcha-jacobovici/2500-year-old-jewish-tabl_b_6579996.html
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Significant discovery in modern Iraq, supporting the Jewish Exile in Babylon:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/simcha-jacobovici/2500-year-old-jewish-tabl_b_6579996.html
Jim, I was reading about this..... maybe your post should be on General Discussion.
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Interesting find that possible places the first humans 400,000 earlier that was thought.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31718336
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This pushes hominid technology in Palestine back a bit...500,000years, to be precise.
http://www.archaeology.org/news/3098-150319-israel-elephant-residue
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Just noticed this one:
Evidence of Egyptian trade or settlement in Israel....right at the start of the Egyptian state, 3000 odd years BC
http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/egyptian-beer-vessels-unearthed-in-tel.html#.VRkZmhh0wqC
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Interesting evidence for Egyptian occupation of Israel/Palestine in the fourteenth century BC.
(Not that we didn't already know - but this find turned up very recently)
http://archaeology.org/news/3140-150402-israel-egypt-artifacts
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Not really news, but an excellent example of modern archaeological site analysis....and in process, confirmation of settlement in the Nile Valley c5000 BC, give or take a few centuries.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/foodproduction/omari.htm
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Interesting article on the BBC about the discovery of stone tools that pre-date humans.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-32804177
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A fragment of wood found 300m deep in a kimberlite pipe, which supposedly erupted 53 million years ago, still contains cellulose and amber.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045537
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A fragment of wood found 300m deep in a kimberlite pipe, which supposedly erupted 53 million years ago, still contains cellulose and amber.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045537
Before I ask if you have actually read the document.
What is your point?
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A fragment of wood found 300m deep in a kimberlite pipe, which supposedly erupted 53 million years ago, still contains cellulose and amber.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045537
Before I ask if you have actually read the document.
What is your point?
The OP says, "I think perhaps it would be useful to have an 'evidence' thread, incuding the info about Egypt, C14 and other dating methods, geological info et al, so it is available to refer to when the creationists echo their unfounded assertions."
If that wood is unpermineralized, as the article says, then 53 million years is a long time for the cellulose to remain intact.
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'S amazing wot techy stuff can do.
http://archaeology.org/news/3496-150720-ein-gedi-scroll
This would be just a mouldering fragment otherwise.
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A fragment of wood found 300m deep in a kimberlite pipe, which supposedly erupted 53 million years ago, still contains cellulose and amber.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045537
Before I ask if you have actually read the document.
What is your point?
The OP says, "I think perhaps it would be useful to have an 'evidence' thread, incuding the info about Egypt, C14 and other dating methods, geological info et al, so it is available to refer to when the creationists echo their unfounded assertions."
If that wood is unpermineralized, as the article says, then 53 million years is a long time for the cellulose to remain intact.
It is a long time, which is why they wrote an article about it. They do have an explanation of why the cellulose has survived (basically it was a sterile environment, so no bacteria to break it down).
How much carbon-14 do you think is left in it btw?
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A fragment of wood found 300m deep in a kimberlite pipe, which supposedly erupted 53 million years ago, still contains cellulose and amber.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0045537
Before I ask if you have actually read the document.
What is your point?
The OP says, "I think perhaps it would be useful to have an 'evidence' thread, incuding the info about Egypt, C14 and other dating methods, geological info et al, so it is available to refer to when the creationists echo their unfounded assertions."
If that wood is unpermineralized, as the article says, then 53 million years is a long time for the cellulose to remain intact.
It is a long time, which is why they wrote an article about it. They do have an explanation of why the cellulose has survived (basically it was a sterile environment, so no bacteria to break it down).
Why didn't it turn into coal?
How much carbon-14 do you think is left in it btw?
It would be interesting to test it for C-14. If it's that old there wouldn't be any left.
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Why didn't it turn into coal?
I expect the necessary heat and pressure wasn't there.
How much carbon-14 do you think is left in it btw?
It would be interesting to test it for C-14. If it's that old there wouldn't be any left.
Pretty sure that is correct. It would be over 9,000 half lives which is way too long for there to be any 14C atoms left, except for any contamination that might occur after it was dug up.
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Latest archaeology from Israel suggests early experiments in farming as early as c 23,000 BC
http://archaeology.org/news/3507-150723-israel-early-farming
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Interesting find, wow!
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I'm the first in line when it comes to throwing a wobbly over the continuous stream of 'Tut guff' written by people with an over active imagination and an under active sense of history.
When this theory hit the 'net a fortnight ago, I was all for deleting it - till I saw who was behind it.
http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21660503-tantalising-clue-location-long-sought-pharaonic-tomb-what-lies-beneath
Nick Reeves is a very well respected Egyptologist, and has written authoritatively on the Valley of the Kings (where he has excavated an undisturbed tomb), as well as the outstanding "Akhenaten: Egypt's false prophet" which, until the DNA analysis of the royal mummies in 2010, was regarded as groundbreaking thought provoking material (and his conclusions on Atenism are still held in high regard)
Basically, Reeves postulates that there are a further two, yet unopened, rooms in KV 62 - Tutankhamun's ramshackle, cobbled-together tomb.
One, he says, is a burial - a burial of Nefertiti as King.
I disagree with this bit - I'm in the camp which accepts a candidate for Nefertiti's mummy already exists, but the evidence Reeves presents demands investigation.
You can read the actual paper here - it's 51 pages long, but worth a read.
https://www.academia.edu/14406398/The_Burial_of_Nefertiti_2015_
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Here's an interview with Nick Reeves (in an Egyptian English-speaking newspaper article)
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/9/0/137945/Heritage/0/Interview-with-Nicholas-Reev
es-An-archaeologist-on.aspx
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......And the latest on KV 62 (Tutankhamun):
Even the Director of Antiquities in Cairo is tentatively agreeing with Revess...
http://luxortimesmagazine.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/exclusive-egyptian-minister-of_25.html?m=1
Most of the Egyptian forums and groups are now in meltdown mode.
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This appears to be evidence for proto-hominid 'ritual' inhumation as early as three million years ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34192447
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This appears to be evidence for proto-hominid 'ritual' inhumation as early as three million years ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34192447
Let's be a little bit cautious, three million years is the older end of the possible range which is form 3million years ago to 300k years ago.
Also, it might not be a new species. These may be H. erectus.
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This appears to be evidence for proto-hominid 'ritual' inhumation as early as three million years ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34192447
Let's be a little bit cautious, three million years is the older end of the possible range which is form 3million years ago to 300k years ago.
Also, it might not be a new species. These may be H. erectus.
Either way, that these hominids appear to have exhibited some form of ritualistic behaviour regarding their dead, is fascinating.
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It seems increasingly likely that there is something behind the painted walls of the burial chamber of KV 62,
Stand by for a media frenzy.
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/147582.aspx
And, taken from a FB post - with no copyright needed
Here's a report on the latest findings at the scene of Tutankhamun's tomb, from a friend of mine on a Face Book group.:
Bernard M. Adams. posting to The Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities. .
Tutankhamun Tomb KV 62 Hidden Rooms
Dear Friends,
39c
What a wonderful and exciting morning at the Kings Valley. People gathered at the shelter in front of KV62. Those people included the Press from BBC TV, National Geographic, French TV and many Newspaper journalists. Then the dignities arrived and everyone got the chance to ask question and to discuss with Dr. Nicholas Reeves his theories and research. The morning went very well with everyone enjoying the moment and perhaps, all hoping in the realisation of their being at the beginning of something big in history.
We all had the chance to enter the tomb, take photos and to roughly see where the proposed Hidden Rooms might be, according to Dr. Reeves. In the tomb there were many officials, some wearing the SCA (Supreme Council of Antiquities) white coats. These men were mostly in the small anti chamber to the East of the tomb and the burial chamber where they were checking the laser images against the walls.
Those attending the public relations meeting were, Dr. Mamdouh El-Damaty - Minister of Antiquities, Mohamed Sayed Bard - Governor of Luxor, Ahmed Khalifa - Director of Public Relations, Ahmed Nouby Moussa - SIS Manager and other officials and Directors from different areas.
Dr. Mamdouh El-Damaty, Minister of Antiquities, agrees that Dr. Reeves has found something because they have found already the changes that show us that behind these walls we have to find other chambers. But, Nefertiti "I doubt". He thinks we have another discovery and says, why not the Queen Tiye? (Tut's Mother) It's another theory, or it could be a Prince or another royal member of the family of Tutankhamun. It's a double tomb but which one? Which person? We will have to wait until we see the results.
Dr. Nicholas Reeves explained his ideas and theory for there being further rooms in Tut's tomb. He says "I go where the evidence takes me" and the evidence at the moment suggests two things, it suggests there may be another doorway behind the West wall of the burial chamber. There may be another doorway behind the North wall. The West wall, if there is a chamber behind the West wall, then that corresponds to a Tutankhamun period storeroom. So there would be another Tutankhamun storeroom that has not been discovered before. If there is a chamber behind the North wall, the answer is of who or what is behind it. If you look at the Horemheb tomb TT57, you go down, you reach the well and on the opposite wall, you have a painted decoration, which has been broken down in antiquities time but you can see that the God Horus is cut through, you can see that this original decoration, the entire wall has been a disguise to hide its existence. If I am right, I think this is a similar situation. This is a disguised wall. Dr. Reeves had also stated that after his investigations of the tombs ceiling, it shows that it went beyond the North and West walls. He is now convinced his theory of further rooms is correct.
Ref: Dr. Nicholas Reeves Paper - accademia.edu.
A Japanese team will arrive within a few months after permissions are granted from the authorities. They will use GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) The Japanese Archaeologist has had great success in South America using this method, it was also used here in the Kings Valley at KV63. Dr. Mamdouh Al-Damaty has promised that on the 4th November, the day the tomb was discovered by Howard Carter, the radar results will be announced.
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Is there or isn't there another room in KV 62? Things have gone political recently, and in-fighting in the echelons of the Egyptology world has meant that little more has been done since the inconclusive scans a few months ago. Now, to add petrol to the flame, self-publicising plagiarist Zahi Hawass has been put in charge of new scans.... a bit like putting Attilla the Hun in charge of flower arranging. http://luxor-news.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/zahi-on-new-scan-of-tutankhamun-this.html?m=1
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They've found an ark. OK, nothing to do with the Bible (sorry, YECs), but a fascinating find from the high point of Egypt's Middle Kingdom, and, to be honest, I didn't know where else to post the link..... https://penncurrent.upenn.edu/news/penn-archaeologist-discovers-ancient-egyptian-boat-in-middle-of-desert
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Piramesse. One of my favourite sites in Egypt is Djanet , or Tanis, in the Nile Delta, one of the great capitals of the ancient world. I have fond memories of being part of a dig there for a brief time in 1980. That's unfamiliar to the uninitiated, but the necropolis of the dyn XXI kings was one of the greatest discoveries of Egyptology, and for those in love with ancient bling, the gold and silverware found there was stunning. However Tanis was actually constructed from the remains of Pi-Ramesse - Biblical 'Ramses' - modern Tell Qantir -which was relocated en mass as the branch of the Nile on which it was situated silted up. An incredible reconstruction project - though it meant that the actual site of Pi-Ramesse was unknown till the last few decades. Here's a link to Tanis for anyone interested. https://www.ucl.ac.uk/qatar/research/qantir-piramesse.
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The third Intermediate and late periods of Egypt are a pet interest of mine - here's an intriguing article about the Jewish settlement on the strategically important island of Elephantine in the south of the country - and the fact that the colonists built a temple to YHWH around the fifth century BC which seems to have been modelled on the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. http://www.ancientsudan.org/articles_jewish_elephantine.html Anyone interested in this matter might like to google "Elephantine papyrus', where many articles and translations can be found under that heading relating to the colony.
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I;ll just post this here. New discoveries of middle ranking tombs at the site at Gebel el Sisila, Egypt, dating to mid eighteenth dynasty (around 1600 BC) And good pics as well. http://www.lunduniversity.lu.se/article/twelve-new-tombs-discovered-in-gebel-el-silsila-egypt
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Anchorman, have you listened to any of Dan Carlin's King of Kings podcasts? They aspire to tell the story of the Persian Empire from a Persian point of view (i.e. not simply as being the bad guys of Greek history).
I'd be interested to know what you think as somebody who knows something of the period.
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Anchorman, have you listened to any of Dan Carlin's King of Kings podcasts? They aspire to tell the story of the Persian Empire from a Persian point of view (i.e. not simply as being the bad guys of Greek history).
I'd be interested to know what you think as somebody who knows something of the period.
The Persians were the superpower of their day, just as the AssyrioBabylonians, Hittites, and Egyptians had been.
Their efficient if brutal conquest of the Meduiterranean and use of local rulers to administer their conquests meant that, on the whole, their 'original' empire was relatively benign.
The policy led to various rebellions - Egypt's was successful for a while, spawning dyn XXVIII-XXX, but Persia was far to strong to resist in the end.
Of course Alexander's propaganda merchants got to work making them out to be the villains of all villains; but in reality they were little different than the Macedonians.
Possibly to our eyes, they might even have appeared more 'modern' in their ideas concerning women, local government and even law codes.
The instability of their ruling family was their ultimate downfall - had their last rulers been as strong as Darius or Xerxes, Alexander could never have conquered in the way he did.
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Interesting insight into paleolithic proto-cultivation in what is now Galilee. http://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/1.772111
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/rwolf/5137667115/in/photostream/
Nearly 1.5 billion years of geological time missing between Proterozoic and Jurassic rock, yet the contact surface is flat. It looks more as though there was very little time between the lower and upper layers being deposited.
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https://ncse.com/blog/2014/11/top-5-creationist-claims-grand-canyon-1-great-unconformity-0015968
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https://ncse.com/blog/2014/11/top-5-creationist-claims-grand-canyon-1-great-unconformity-0015968
I would suggest the duck test for the great unconformity. If it doesn't look as though a billion years separate two layers, it's most likely that they didn't!
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I would suggest the duck test for the great unconformity. If it doesn't look as though a billion years separate two layers, it's most likely that they didn't!
Equally then, if it doesn't look like that the entire earth was covered by a flood 4000 years ago, it's most likely that it wasn't!
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I would suggest the duck test for the great unconformity. If it doesn't look as though a billion years separate two layers, it's most likely that they didn't!
https://ncse.com/blog/2014/11/top-5-creationist-claims-grand-canyon-1-great-unconformity-0015994
https://ncse.com/blog/2015/01/top-5-creationist-claims-grand-canyon-1-great-unconformity-0016078
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https://ncse.com/blog/2014/11/top-5-creationist-claims-grand-canyon-1-great-unconformity-0015968
So a piece of rock a centimeter above the dividing line is a billion years younger than a piece from a centimeter below it? And erosion of the surface of the lower layer by wind and rain during this time was prevented how, exactly?
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So a piece of rock a centimeter above the dividing line is a billion years younger than a piece from a centimeter below it? And erosion of the surface of the lower layer by wind and rain during this time was prevented how, exactly?
.. by the layers above it, which were eroded! D'oh.... ::)
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.. by the layers above it, which were eroded! D'oh.... ::)
Such erosion is not uniform but irregular, and would not have left the underlying surface flat, as we see it is.
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Such erosion is not uniform but irregular, and would not have left the underlying surface flat, as we see it is.
Not if the pressure from above flattens it.
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So a piece of rock a centimeter above the dividing line is a billion years younger than a piece from a centimeter below it?
Yep. Isn't nature amazing.
And erosion of the surface of the lower layer by wind and rain during this time was prevented how, exactly?
Because there were layers above it, now missing, that did get eroded.
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Such erosion is not uniform but irregular, and would not have left the underlying surface flat, as we see it is.
How do you know the interface is flat? The photograph only shows a very small part of the interface.
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Not if the pressure from above flattens it.
Good point.
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Yep. Isn't nature amazing.
Because there were layers above it, now missing, that did get eroded.
So is there any evidence for the missing layers that got eroded?
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Not if the pressure from above flattens it.
Is there evidence for any now-missing rocks that could have done that?
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How do you know the interface is flat? The photograph only shows a very small part of the interface.
If you're referring to this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rwolf/5137667115/in/photostream/
I don't think there is much doubt that the interface is flat.
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Is there evidence for any now-missing rocks that could have done that?
You only need the now present ones to have done it!
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You only need the now present ones to have done it!
The now present rocks were sand when deposited, so that is unlikely.
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The now present rocks were sand when deposited, so that is unlikely.
You mean that sand can become rock! Wow how long does that take?
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You mean that sand can become rock! Wow how long does that take?
Quite a while I guess. Isn't the question "Does pressure from overlying rocks flatten underlying ones?" I think you'll find that this is not the case. For example, do you think the rocks of the Curtis formation flattened the upper surface of the entrada sandstone, seen in this picture?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrada_Sandstone#/media/File%3AEntrada_Sandstone_capped_by_Curtis_Formation_in_Cathedral_Valley.jpg
So we still have no evidence for a billion year gap between the precambrian and entrada formations.
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Interestingly, the plain on which the entrada sandstone sits in the above picture is also flat
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Interestingly, the plain on which the entrada sandstone sits in the above picture is also flat
So why are they all flat then?
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Quite a while I guess.
How long would "quite a while" be, approximately?
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So why are they all flat then?
I don't know. I couldn't find out what kind of rock it is on the Cathedral Valley floor.
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Interesting piece about the decline and fall of the Egyptian empire - in Canaan. http://www.archaeology.org/issues/262-1707/features/5627-jaffa-egypt-canaan-colony
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For the science-y geeks, here's a link to DNA research on the ethnicity of Ancient Egyptians. Some of the American 'racial purity' brigade have gone nuts, after assuming purely black origins. On the other hand, the data confirms what the rest of us have known for yonks; despite portraying a xenophobic iconography, diverse populations of migrant settlers from North Africa, the Middle East, Western Asia and even Europe helped stir the gene pool. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/22/health/ancient-egypt-mummy-dna-genome-heritage/index.html
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Orkney: The gift that keeps on giving. https://www.historyscotland.com/articles/scottish-archaeology/new-radiocarbon-dates-shed-light-on-life-in-iron-age-orkney