Religion and Ethics Forum

Religion and Ethics Discussion => Jewish Topic => Topic started by: Sassy on January 17, 2017, 11:59:18 PM

Title: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Sassy on January 17, 2017, 11:59:18 PM
Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red Sea



http://betinews.com/?p=3661

I just found this.... not in the mood right now to read through, thought other others here could
examine it.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on January 18, 2017, 01:04:40 AM


Sorry to prick your bubble Sassy, but it is a hoax!

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/remains-egyptian-army-red-sea-hoax.shtml
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Shaker on January 18, 2017, 08:24:06 AM
Whoops!  ::)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on January 18, 2017, 08:48:10 AM

Whoops!  ::)


I must admit I thought it a bit suspect as soon as I saw the website it came from - one of those that you instinctively look for details of the owner/operator - nether were visible - so I headed for Hoax-Slayer!  Jackpot!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Yep, hoax. The closest we've come to identification of sites mentioned in Exodus is that of Pi-Ramese (Tel Quantir) Biblical 'Ramses'. That was a stonking great new capital city built by Ramesses II in the Delta....but when that branch of the Nile silted up three or four centuries later, all the stone structures were moved in a fantastic effort, to the 'new' city capital, Djanet (Tanis) What remained was found in the last two decades. Unfortunately, with the rise and fall of the Nile in that area, any remnants of mud brick structures are lost completely, so we can't study them.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Shaker on January 18, 2017, 10:20:20 AM
One has to wonder however whether somebody who thinks something as well-documented as the moon landings were a hoax will insist that an actual hoax from a spoof site is the real deal.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: floo on January 18, 2017, 10:40:03 AM
I find it extremely strange anyone could think the moon landings were a hoax, but believe in the veracity of the less than credible stories in the  Bible. ::)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 01:40:20 PM
Actually, floom there is much archaeology which corroborates the later Old testament, and linguistic analysis which sheds some light on the earlier, and none of it from certain 'Biblical archaeology' sites, which most scholars wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Brownie on January 18, 2017, 02:18:20 PM
One has to wonder however whether somebody who thinks something as well-documented as the moon landings were a hoax will insist that an actual hoax from a spoof site is the real deal.

Why hark back to that?

Sassy said:
"...not in the mood right now to read through, thought other others here could
examine it."

So she only gave it a quick glance, not saying she believed it.

I couldn't open the link but will have a look at the link Owl posted.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: floo on January 18, 2017, 02:35:58 PM
Actually, floom there is much archaeology which corroborates the later Old testament, and linguistic analysis which sheds some light on the earlier, and none of it from certain 'Biblical archaeology' sites, which most scholars wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

Give examples, please.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Sebastian Toe on January 18, 2017, 03:56:18 PM
One has to wonder however whether somebody who thinks something as well-documented as the moon landings were a hoax will insist that an actual hoax from a spoof site is the real deal.

Why hark back to that?

Sassy said:
"...not in the mood right now to read through, thought other others here could
examine it."

So she only gave it a quick glance, not saying she believed it.


I just thought that Shaker was pondering if the Sasster might insist?
That's what I got from the 'whether' bit of his post anyway.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on January 18, 2017, 04:16:31 PM
Give examples, please.
The stories in the Bible from the Two Kingdom period (after the reign of Solomon) have some external corroboration. For example, there is some Assyrian documentation relating to how they destroyed the Northern Kingdom. There are some Babylonian documents relating to the downfall of Judah.

Furthermore, there is archaeological evidence that the Noerthern Kingdom existed as a political entity at the time the Bible says it did. Similarly for Judah in the period after the Northern Kingdom was destroyed.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 04:17:44 PM
Give examples, please.
1. First nention of YHWH on a relief in the Temple of Luxor from riegn of Amenhotep III 2 First mention of Jerusalem (Admittedly from the Caananite period) on a tablet from the 'Amarna cache' of Akhenaten. 3. First mention of Hazor and Hebron from same cache dated to Tutankhaten/amun. 4 First mention of Israel as a state - from victory stela of Merenptah. 5 First corroborated evidence of Egypt invasion (Sheshonq I, Biblical Shishak) from both Scripture and the walls of Karnak. 6. Analysis of gold from the face mask of Sheshonq IIsuggests a northern, rather than the usual southern, origin.....possible (tenuous) link to gold looted by Sheshonq I. Followwing this, numerous Biblical events from the eighth century onward confirmed by inscriptions from Egypt, Ninevah, Babylon, etc. Do you wish the relevent site details?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 18, 2017, 04:22:11 PM
Actually, floom there is much archaeology which corroborates the later Old testament, and linguistic analysis which sheds some light on the earlier, and none of it from certain 'Biblical archaeology' sites, which most scholars wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

Anchorman

But you have to admit that such archaeology (stone prisms and the like), whilst they may corroborate certain historical OT details, don't go very far to substantiate the invention of angels (siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib) or pillars of fire in the desert.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 04:24:24 PM
If you google "Elephantine Papyri" you'll find numerous sites - many of them serious academic sites - dealing with the Temple of YHWH which existed AFTER the Biblical Solomonic Temple was destroyed. This one was in Egypt, in the far south, and was staffed by a colony of Jewish mercenaries brought in by Saite kings to guard the southern borders. It's mentioned in Scripture, but its iexistance was doubted untill the papyri turned up. There were actually a further two Temples in Egypt to YHWH in Ptolemaic times.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 04:28:12 PM
Anchorman

But you have to admit that such archaeology (stone prisms and the like), whilst they may corroborate certain historical OT details, don't go very far to substantiate the invention of angels (siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib) or pillars of fire in the desert.




Plenty of stuff found in Jerusalem to substantiate the Assyrian assault, DU - considering they got as far as the Egyptian Delta in the same campaign.
Not sure about evidence for angels, though....damn feathers orf dem wings don't last long!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 18, 2017, 04:28:17 PM
The stories in the Bible from the Two Kingdom period (after the reign of Solomon) have some external corroboration. For example, there is some Assyrian documentation relating to how they destroyed the Northern Kingdom. There are some Babylonian documents relating to the downfall of Judah.

Furthermore, there is archaeological evidence that the Noerthern Kingdom existed as a political entity at the time the Bible says it did. Similarly for Judah in the period after the Northern Kingdom was destroyed.

The 'linguistic analysis' to which Anchorman refers includes, I assume, the whole foundation of the 'Documentary Hypothesis', which directly involves the assumption of the existence of the Northern and Southern kingdoms and their separate stories on the same topics.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 18, 2017, 04:31:14 PM



Plenty of stuff found in Jerusalem to substantiate the Assyrian assault, DU - considering they got as far as the Egyptian Delta in the same campaign.
Not sure about evidence for angels, though....damn feathers orf dem wings don't last long!

Oh yes, the Assyrian assault is well documented in very hard to ignore artifacts from non-biblical sources. However, the Bible does say that the siege was relieved by the intervention of an angel - whereas the other side said that Hezekiah had to pay off the Assyrians with a huge tribute of silver, gold and jewels.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 04:35:14 PM
Actually, DU, I was comparaing names from Scripture to those found at the 'Ebla Library', and Tell el Dab'a (The captil of the Hyksos, a confederation of Asiatic tribes who ruled lower (Northern) Egypt from c1800-1700 BC, and spoke a Semitic language. There's also a woman- quite a looker by what's left of her mummy - who was a minor wife of Thutmose III and bore the name we equate in English as ' Martha' - her face, mummy mask and decor of coffin suggest a non Egyptian origin (not that that was rare)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on January 18, 2017, 04:36:21 PM
The 'linguistic analysis' to which Anchorman refers includes, I assume, the whole foundation of the 'Documentary Hypothesis', which directly involves the assumption of the existence of the Northern and Southern kingdoms and their separate stories on the same topics.
I wasn't aware that the Documentary Hypothesis had anything to do with the two kingdoms. I think the current consensus is that most of the OT was written down after Israel (the Northern Kingdom) had already been destroyed by Assyria.

I also don't think the existence of the two kingdoms is an "assumption". I think the evidence they existed is fairly strong. I would differ with Anchorman in what their origins are but we would probably agree that the history as told in the Bible (book of Kings mainly) is based on the truth although I would argue is also heavily spun.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 04:39:34 PM
Oh yes, the Assyrian assault is well documented in very hard to ignore artifacts from non-biblical sources. However, the Bible does say that the siege was relieved by the intervention of an angel - whereas the other side said that Hezekiah had to pay off the Assyrians with a huge tribute of silver, gold and jewels. [/quote Certain posters might accuse me of being a heretic, but I'd wonder where a relatively tiny country like Israel/Judah got its hands on vast quantities of gold. That's where the typical Middle Eastern thing about exaggerating figures comes in. Whether we like it or not, Israel was never more than a very minor player in international events at this time.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 18, 2017, 04:45:27 PM
I wasn't aware that the Documentary Hypothesis had anything to do with the two kingdoms. I think the current consensus is that most of the OT was written down after Israel (the Northern Kingdom) had already been destroyed by Assyria.


It certainly has. The Elohist accounts and the Jahvist accounts are believed to derive separately from the two kingdoms in question, before a redactor combined their narratives.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 04:48:18 PM
This would be at the same time the Pentateuch was heavily re-written, DU  - I'd argue at the time of Jeremiah in the OT.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on January 18, 2017, 04:49:03 PM
It certainly has. The Elohist accounts and the Jahvist accounts are believed to derive separately from the two kingdoms in question, before a redactor combined their narratives.

OK, that would be further evidence that the two kingdoms existed.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2017, 04:54:05 PM
The names of both Northern and Southern kings are found written in cuneform tablets - several on one tablet, actually - from Babylon itself. The problem is that they are jumbled up. Of course, I'd argue that this is a marker for the dual kingdoms existing and known outside the area - but I'd say that anyway. The fact that these names do occur together in the same tablet, fragmented as it is, is significant, though. I'll try to find a reference to it....I think it's in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 19, 2017, 04:30:51 PM
The names of both Northern and Southern kings are found written in cuneform tablets - several on one tablet, actually - from Babylon itself. The problem is that they are jumbled up. Of course, I'd argue that this is a marker for the dual kingdoms existing and known outside the area - but I'd say that anyway. The fact that these names do occur together in the same tablet, fragmented as it is, is significant, though. I'll try to find a reference to it....I think it's in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY.

Indeed it is, and is further evidence that the Documentary Hypothesis is still the best explanation we have of how the early books of the Bible came to be written.
The DH is certainly an area of interest for me, and a number of people from various backgrounds have poured scorn on it. The fundamentalists and evangelicals don't like it because it militates against the idea of the Bible being 'divinely inspired', and a number of modern scholars from an archaeological background like to turn their noses up at it because "we have discovered so much more from field-work than Julius Wellhausen ever had available to him" (Glad to note that you've cited an archaeological discovery which supports the hypothesis). The latter, however, have yet to some up with any thesis which has one iota of the D.H's comprehensive explanatory power - not everything fits, but so much does that it seems to me one of the most satisfactory areas of scholarship dealing with the ancient world and its literature.

And the fact that respected scholars like Richard Elliot Friedman, Karen Armstrong, James Barr, Robin Lane Fox and Robert S. Kawashima (yes, that Kawashima - I'm sure you've all heard of him) - think the D.H. is still the best explanation of how the early bits of the Bible came to be written, suggests to me that these ideas are sound.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 19, 2017, 04:34:44 PM
This would be at the same time the Pentateuch was heavily re-written, DU  - I'd argue at the time of Jeremiah in the OT.

Richard Elliott Friedman argues that Jeremiah was a very significant contributor to the formation of the Pentateuch - indeed he cites him as the author of the Deuteronomist narrative, and also Joshua and the Books of Kings, I believe. However, Friedmann believes that the final redactor of the Pentateuch was Ezra (and apparently St Jerome thought this too).
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 19, 2017, 04:40:42 PM
OK, that would be further evidence that the two kingdoms existed.

Just to corroborate what I say, I'll cite Richard Elliott Friedman again. In his book "Who Wrote the Bible", he has a chapter headed "J and E" (J for Jahvist, and E for Elohist). A section in this is headed: "J in Judah, E in Israel", and the next chapter is headed "Two Writers, Two Kingdoms". I can't imagine a clearer exposition of these somewhat recondite matters, and since you're one of that small, eminent band of people who do read this kind of literature (despite what that idiot BA used to assert), I certainly recommend it to you.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 19, 2017, 06:29:54 PM
Indeed it is, and is further evidence that the Documentary Hypothesis is still the best explanation we have of how the early books of the Bible came to be written.
The DH is certainly an area of interest for me, and a number of people from various backgrounds have poured scorn on it. The fundamentalists and evangelicals don't like it because it militates against the idea of the Bible being 'divinely inspired', and a number of modern scholars from an archaeological background like to turn their noses up at it because "we have discovered so much more from field-work than Julius Wellhausen ever had available to him" (Glad to note that you've cited an archaeological discovery which supports the hypothesis). The latter, however, have yet to some up with any thesis which has one iota of the D.H's comprehensive explanatory power - not everything fits, but so much does that it seems to me one of the most satisfactory areas of scholarship dealing with the ancient world and its literature.

And the fact that respected scholars like Richard Elliot Friedman, Karen Armstrong, James Barr, Robin Lane Fox and Robert S. Kawashima (yes, that Kawashima - I'm sure you've all heard of him) - think the D.H. is still the best explanation of how the early bits of the Bible came to be written, suggests to me that these ideas are sound.


-

     The fact that many Christians. including evangelicals, don't have a problem with the DH - or accepting that it was still 'inspired' really doesn't penetrate some of the more intransigent fundamentalist.
The discipline of Biblical archaeology is littered with fruit loops armed with a Bible in one hand and a trowel in the other, determined to find 'evidence' to bolster their position.
Serious scholars use the evidence to deduce the situation in which that evidence was found: a surprising correlation between Scripture and the 'outside world' exists, but, given the vagaries of the writers of the original MSS, and subsequent editing/re-writing of many documents which eventually made up the OT, it cannot be used as a reliable historical guide.
That, of course, was never its' purpose; that the theology contained therein is not marred by the historicity or lack thereof, should not detract from the meaning of the OT Scriptures.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 21, 2017, 03:37:38 PM

-

     The fact that many Christians. including evangelicals, don't have a problem with the DH - or accepting that it was still 'inspired' really doesn't penetrate some of the more intransigent fundamentalist.
The discipline of Biblical archaeology is littered with fruit loops armed with a Bible in one hand and a trowel in the other, determined to find 'evidence' to bolster their position.
Serious scholars use the evidence to deduce the situation in which that evidence was found: a surprising correlation between Scripture and the 'outside world' exists, but, given the vagaries of the writers of the original MSS, and subsequent editing/re-writing of many documents which eventually made up the OT, it cannot be used as a reliable historical guide.
That, of course, was never its' purpose; that the theology contained therein is not marred by the historicity or lack thereof, should not detract from the meaning of the OT Scriptures.

Nice post. However, your last sentence is highly debatable: we can never know what "purpose" there may have been behind the OT scriptures. Indeed, one could only refer to the matter in the singular if one assumed there was one divine author behind them all. It is highly likely that there were many 'purposes' behind the writings of all the disparate authors (Friedman argues that the Deutoronomist author had a very different agenda from other writers of the Pentateuch). In addition, I'm averse to referring to 'the theology' in the singular - Floo is happy to accept such a designation, though she thinks the God revealed is evil. And fundamentalists also like to think of the theology of the OT as a consistent unity. I seriously dispute this: there are many images of God in the OT, and I personally find some of them quite loathesome, and others inspiring. The fact that these are all linked by the flimsy idea that they are portraits of the "God of Abraham Isaac and Israel etc", does not convince - nor more than does the fact that these scriptures happen to have been gathered together in between two covers.
However, the point that many of the seemingly 'historical' passages may well have a purpose beyond simple historical narrative, I wouldn't dispute - and of course, many texts in the Bible have no appearance of historicity in any case (Leviticus and Ecclesiastes, for example). But whatever purpose may have been the original intention of the authors in question, we can only only indulge in (hopefully well-informed) speculation.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 23, 2017, 07:09:49 PM
The chiastic structure of the flood narrative suggests a single author. Yet the documentary hypothesis splits it into J and P components some of which are shorter than one verse.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 23, 2017, 07:11:51 PM
There is also a clear format in Genesis with 10 sections, each beginning "These are the generations of ..."
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 23, 2017, 09:11:41 PM
Which militates against a historical event and more some remembered oral tradition (and none the worse for that)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 24, 2017, 01:18:05 PM
Which militates against a historical event and more some remembered oral tradition (and none the worse for that)
Why does it militate against a historical event?
The NT assumes a historical Adam and Fall: "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man." 1 Cor 15:21
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: floo on January 24, 2017, 01:25:40 PM
Why does it militate against a historical event?
The NT assumes a historical Adam and Fall: "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man." 1 Cor 15:21

Even if the NT assumes Adam etc is factual there is no evidence to support it.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 24, 2017, 01:30:37 PM
Why does it militate against a historical event? The NT assumes a historical Adam and Fall: "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man." 1 Cor 15:21
Spud: This thread is about exttant evidence for remains of a Jewish army inthe Red sea - which do not exist - and for archaeological evidence for confirmation of Scripyture. I've shown that there are umpteen bits of evidence to confirm certain Biblical narratives in the OT, but not a shred to confirm a slave population in the Egyptian Delta - not that given the poor preservation conditions, we're likely to have any. There's ample evidence of Canaanite contacts with the main powers of the Middle East (Egypt, Mitanni, Naharin, etc) from the 16th - 12th centuries BC, before the name of 'Israel' gets a look in on the world stage. You and I might see Israel as a pivotal lodestone in history - but to the world i n general, it was either a minor player at worst, and a severe irrittation at best. Whatever the Pentateuch was, it cannot be relklied on as accurate history - even a cursory glance at the numbers stated for the 'Hebrew slaves' should show you that!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 25, 2017, 09:38:07 AM
Anchorman,
So you're saying it's the lack of archaeological evidence that militates against the historicity of the Pentateuch. Okay - I was a bit confused by your post #32
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 25, 2017, 09:48:21 AM
Anchorman,
So you're saying it's the lack of archaeological evidence that militates against the historicity of the Pentateuch. Okay - I was a bit confused by your post #32





I'm telling you that there is no archaeological evidence for a large slave population in the Nile Delta, or for the stories in Genesis and Exodus concerning Egypt.
Pure and simp;le.
Yes, there's ample evidence of Smitic trade from the Middle Kingdom onward, and certainly a Semitic element in the Hyksos rule of Lower Egypt, but simply nothing else.
No names, no inscription, no trace of mass graves, nothing.
That argues that the Pentateuch as we know it is not, therefore accurate history.
Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; but one of the problems in Egyptology is the amount of evidence - give them a rock or a building, they'll write on it.
Give 'em a tomb and they'll cover it in inscriptions.
Give them a bit of flat stone or broken pot and they'll put a shopping list on it.
So far, out of the literally millions of inscriptions and fragments of inscriptions, there is not one which reliably attests to a high ranking adopted Smitic prince in a Royal court, or a slave population in the Delta.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 25, 2017, 04:22:43 PM
The chiastic structure of the flood narrative suggests a single author. Yet the documentary hypothesis splits it into J and P components some of which are shorter than one verse.

Hello Spud

The structure of the Flood narrative suggests nothing of the kind - in fact, when the glaring contradictions are pointed out, and the sudden shifts of narrative, let alone the somewhat differing 'doublets' are noticed, it is a wonder that anyone who has read the text could think it had one single author.
There are many items I could bring to your attention, but a few notes should be enough. The entry of the families and animals is recorded twice, and in the 'Yahwist' narrative, the number of seven 'clean' pairs of animals is specified (because the author of this bit knew that Noah would later be sacrificing a few - and that would put an end to certain species at a stroke, if there were only one pair of each, as the Priestly narrative relates).
The Flood is also given quite different durations in the two combined accounts - forty days and forty nights we remember, but in the second account, 150 days are mentioned.
Furthermore, the structure of the cosmos related in each flood account is a direct mirror of the two accounts in Genesis 1 and 2  (you will probably know that the Priestly author is supposed to have written Genesis 1, whilst the Jahwist author wrote G2).

Following the analysis of the DH, if you split the text into the suggested Priestly and Jahwist accounts, you will find that each separate narrative tells a flowing, self-consistent story.

The short sentences which have been attributed to one author or the other do not detract from the main argument, which depends much more on large swathes of narrative.
Can't see the joins? They're much easier to spot than those on Donald Trump's wig!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 26, 2017, 01:36:34 PM
The Flood is also given quite different durations in the two combined accounts - forty days and forty nights we remember, but in the second account, 150 days are mentioned.

Hi Dicky,

I will comment on the above point first. If these were two different durations for the flood, we wouldn't expect the dates of the flood's beginning and ending to tally with the total number of days given.

So the durations are not contradictory, and we can look next at other aspects of the DH.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on January 26, 2017, 02:17:10 PM
If these were two different durations for the flood, we wouldn't expect the dates of the flood's beginning and ending to tally with the total number of days given.

So the durations are not contradictory, and we can look next at other aspects of the DH.

Spud

If there are two different durations given (40 days/nights vs 150 days) for this flood then surely these are contradictory?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 26, 2017, 04:47:53 PM
Hi Dicky,

I will comment on the above point first. If these were two different durations for the flood, we wouldn't expect the dates of the flood's beginning and ending to tally with the total number of days given.

So the durations are not contradictory, and we can look next at other aspects of the DH.

If you want some calculations, try here:

www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/duration_of_flood.html

from which I quote the following rather sarcastic paragraph:

Quote
The flood lasted for 40 days until the dove discovers land on the 47th day.  But then, it wasn’t until 150 days that all the waters were abated.  Then, on the 150th day, the ark mysteriously came to rest on Mt. Ararat instead of a lower altitude.  It was a miracle that the ark landed on the mountain because all the waters were already gone.  For some reason, nobody could see the tops of mountains until the 253rd day because of the water, even though it was long gone and the ark had landed.  Finally, at 314 days the water was all dried up, but the earth wasn’t dry until 370 days.  It’s another miracle that the earth wasn’t dry until 56 days after the water was all dried up.

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on January 26, 2017, 04:56:43 PM
If you want some calculations, try here:

www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/duration_of_flood.html

from which I quote the following rather sarcastic paragraph:


Quote
The flood lasted for 40 days until the dove discovers land on the 47th day.  But then, it wasn’t until 150 days that all the waters were abated.  Then, on the 150th day, the ark mysteriously came to rest on Mt. Ararat instead of a lower altitude.  It was a miracle that the ark landed on the mountain because all the waters were already gone.  For some reason, nobody could see the tops of mountains until the 253rd day because of the water, even though it was long gone and the ark had landed.  Finally, at 314 days the water was all dried up, but the earth wasn’t dry until 370 days.  It’s another miracle that the earth wasn’t dry until 56 days after the water was all dried up.

So Spud was right then: absolutely no contradictions whatsoever!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 26, 2017, 06:24:10 PM
If you want some calculations, try here:

www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/duration_of_flood.html

Do I really need to answer this? The dates given for the beginning and end of the flood tally exactly with the number of days given in the account. So no contradictions.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 26, 2017, 06:26:01 PM
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/biblical-overview-of-the-flood-timeline/
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on January 26, 2017, 06:36:08 PM
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-timeline/biblical-overview-of-the-flood-timeline/

Which is unreconstructed bollocks of the creationist variety. You need to avoid such nonsense, Spud.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 26, 2017, 06:51:16 PM
Which is unreconstructed bollocks of the creationist variety. You need to avoid such nonsense, Spud.

That's another issue, though. From looking at the table in the link, do you think that the 40 days and 150 days are from two contradictory flood accounts, or not?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on January 26, 2017, 07:17:20 PM
That's another issue, though. From looking at the table in the link, do you think that the 40 days and 150 days are from two contradictory flood accounts, or not?

Spud

There wasn't a global flood (as claimed in the first para), therefore it doesn't matter what this nonsense asserts.

For example footnote 5. says 'Using the genealogy found in Genesis 5 and Noah's age at the time of the Flood reveals that the world had been in existence for roughly 1,656 years.'

Why on earth you bother yourself with such drivel beats me.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 26, 2017, 09:45:01 PM
If this is gonna develop into a YEC thread, I'm going to need paracetamol.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on January 26, 2017, 10:28:45 PM

If this is gonna develop into a YEC thread, I'm going to need paracetamol.


Damn paracetamol - I'll use Mead - it tastes better!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 27, 2017, 08:56:43 AM
Damn paracetamol - I'll use Mead - it tastes better!
Right, I will pretend the flood was local, then.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: floo on January 27, 2017, 08:58:45 AM
Right, I will pretend the flood was local, then.

There is no evidence to suggest anything else.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 27, 2017, 09:27:42 AM
There is no evidence to suggest anything else.
The point is that even if the flood was local, the 40/ 150 day supposed contradiction doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 27, 2017, 09:31:45 AM
Right, I will pretend the flood was local, then.





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Good idea - 'cos there's not a shred of archaeology to show otherwise.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 27, 2017, 12:15:50 PM
(you will probably know that the Priestly author is supposed to have written Genesis 1, whilst the Jahwist author wrote G2).

Regarding the DH in general, here is a quote from Peter Leithart in an article entitled "Umberto Cassuto and the Documentary Hypothesis":

Quote
Let me summarize a few examples of Cassuto’s approach. If the Documentary Hypothesis has a central pillar, it is that the use of different names for God is evidence of different sources. If we find a section of the Pentateuch that uses the name "Elohim" for God, then we have a text that comes from the "E" source. If we find a text that uses "Yahweh," we have a text that comes from the "J" source. (The "P" source is also said to use "Elohim.")

While acknowledging the obvious fact that the Pentateuch uses different names for God, Cassuto showed that each name had a specific meaning. The name "Yahweh," he argued, is the covenant Name of God, and is used when His relationship to Israel is in view. The name "Elohim," by contrast, points to God as the God of the whole world, and is used when God’s relationship to the nations or to the universe is in view. Thus, Psalm 47:1, when it exhorts "all nations" to praise God uses the name "Elohim." In the prophetic literature, which is directed to Israel, the name Yahweh is predominant.

This becomes especially striking in the first chapters of Genesis. Genesis 1 uses the name "Elohim" since it is describing God’s creation of the universe. Genesis 2, however, uses the unique combination "Yahweh Elohim," showing to the Israelite reader that the God who entered into a covenant with Israel is also the God who created all things. The different names of God, then, are not evidence of separate sources. Instead, they are used to call attention to different attributes and activities of God.

http://tinyurl.com/nzvnwtw
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 28, 2017, 03:33:08 PM
Regarding the DH in general, here is a quote from Peter Leithart in an article entitled "Umberto Cassuto and the Documentary Hypothesis":

http://tinyurl.com/nzvnwtw

Unfortunately, the name Yahweh appears many times in the hypothesised Yahwist text in the early chapters of the Bible, whereas in the Elohist text it does not appear until Exodus 3, where God appears to Moses in the burning bush. The Priestly text at Exodus 6:3 underlines the point quite specifically (first appearance of 'Yahweh' in the P text) where God says:
" I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them."
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 28, 2017, 03:36:36 PM
If this is gonna develop into a YEC thread, I'm going to need paracetamol.

I must share a deal of the blame, since I introduced the matter of the Documentary Hypothesis as a further indication of the existence of two separate ancient Jewish kingdoms.
Perhaps if we tried to bring things back to the purported existence of the two kingdoms, we might then proceed back to the question of evidence for evidence of the Exodus etc.?
Pious hope :)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 28, 2017, 05:18:01 PM
I must share a deal of the blame, since I introduced the matter of the Documentary Hypothesis as a further indication of the existence of two separate ancient Jewish kingdoms.
Perhaps if we tried to bring things back to the purported existence of the two kingdoms, we might then proceed back to the question of evidence for evidence of the Exodus etc.?
Pious hope :)




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The problem is that some don't see an issue in accepting Scripture as unedited historical fact, which was never its' purpose.
They analyse word-for-word without noticing the lack of actual extrabiblical evidence to back up the 'literal fact'.
As posted earlier, I have absolutely no issues with Semitic populations - even small communities - in Egypt from as early as 2000 BC; there's ample evidence from Beni Hassan tomb paintings to show Semitic contacts at court lrevel, and the peaceful incursion of Semitic tribes which became something of a takeover of the Delta around 1800 cannot be disputed.
All ancient peoples had a habit of exaggerating stats - the Egyptians were experts at it; so, it appears, were the editors of the Pentateuch. The numbers suggested for the Hebrew Exodus were simply impossible - Even the whole of Lower Egypt had no such population at that time!
That a group of Semites left Egypt to enter Canaan is perfectly possible - even that a Semitic official  was a high ranking courtier in the Egyptian state is very plausable; many examples of non-Egyptians  making it big exist, some marrying into the ruling family and fathering future kings.
I have no doubt that some sort of migration of a small number of Semitic tribesmen occurred....but the rest is conjecture for which there is no proof.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 30, 2017, 12:00:34 PM
The short sentences which have been attributed to one author or the other do not detract from the main argument, which depends much more on large swathes of narrative.
Can't see the joins? They're much easier to spot than those on Donald Trump's wig!

As an example, the Documentary Hypothesis supposes that the whole of Genesis 5 was written by the "Priestly" author except verse 29, presumably because of the use of the word "Yahweh". Here it is in context:

28When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29He named him Noahc and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” 30After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

No joins here, it is all one flowing text.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Walter on January 30, 2017, 12:36:26 PM
As an example, the Documentary Hypothesis supposes that the whole of Genesis 5 was written by the "Priestly" author except verse 29, presumably because of the use of the word "Yahweh". Here it is in context:

28When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29He named him Noahc and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” 30After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

No joins here, it is all one flowing text.
I know none of this is true because of the spelling of 'labor'. IT'S JUST SO WRONG.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 30, 2017, 12:46:49 PM
Can't see the joins? They're much easier to spot than those on Donald Trump's wig!
If it looks like hair, the likelihood is it is hair!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Walter on January 30, 2017, 02:10:19 PM
If it looks like hair, the likelihood is it is hair!
it could be carbon fibre , glass or even nylon. who knows?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on January 30, 2017, 03:58:21 PM
As an example, the Documentary Hypothesis supposes that the whole of Genesis 5 was written by the "Priestly" author except verse 29, presumably because of the use of the word "Yahweh". Here it is in context:

28When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29He named him Noahc and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” 30After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

No joins here, it is all one flowing text.

If that were the only reason, it would be a pretty poor argument. In any case, the Priestly author certainly knew the name "Yahweh", since it is clear that his narrative is written as a response to the earlier one, and he or a later redactor may have slipped the name into the text. I suggest that the main reason why this is (by some) attributed to the Yahwist narrator is because the painful, fallen condition of humanity is stressed here: "the ground that the Lord has cursed". This is in marked contrast with the whole of the tenor of the purported Priestly narrative, which has a more optimistic feel about human nature, of humans 'made in the image of God' and blessed by him (Gen 5:1,2).

And far from being one flowing text, you will note that the whole chapter is simply a list of the generations up to Noah, until the point you mention, where there is a sudden switch of mood and direction, totally out of keeping with the rest of the writing.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 30, 2017, 06:26:49 PM
If that were the only reason, it would be a pretty poor argument. In any case, the Priestly author certainly knew the name "Yahweh", since it is clear that his narrative is written as a response to the earlier one, and he or a later redactor may have slipped the name into the text. I suggest that the main reason why this is (by some) attributed to the Yahwist narrator is because the painful, fallen condition of humanity is stressed here: "the ground that the Lord has cursed". This is in marked contrast with the whole of the tenor of the purported Priestly narrative, which has a more optimistic feel about human nature, of humans 'made in the image of God' and blessed by him (Gen 5:1,2).

And far from being one flowing text, you will note that the whole chapter is simply a list of the generations up to Noah, until the point you mention, where there is a sudden switch of mood and direction, totally out of keeping with the rest of the writing.
I agree that Lamech's saying is unique in the passage, so you could hypothesize that it is inserted by another author.

It's a bit over my head. But here is one piece of evidence that refutes a late authorship of the Pentateuch: the absence of any reference, especially in Deuteronomy, to Jerusalem/Zion.

Quote
Deuteronomy: Geographical Considerations

If Deuteronomy was composed during the late kingdom period, we would expect its geographical expressions to reflect the political geography of Israel of the 7th century, not the geography of the 15th century, of which the Deuteronomic author would have no insight. Yet the descriptions of Moabite country and the descriptions of the wanderings of chapters 1-3 bear much more resemblance to the geography of pre-conquest Canaan than late-kingdom Judah. The omissions are also telling; if Deuteronomy was written in the days of Josiah, we would expect some sort of hint of the importance of Jerusalem (remember, the Documentarians say the whole purpose of Deuteronomy was to centralize worship in Jerusalem). Yet there is no hint of Jerusalem in Deuteronomy; nor is Ramah mentioned, which was the center of religious life during the long life of Samuel, nor is there any mention of Shiloh, where the Ark and Tabernacle stood for generations during the period of the judges. How could a document of the 7th century evidence such familiarity with the geography of the 15th century whilst simultaneously omitting all references to contemporary geography? The answer, of course, is that the document was written in the 15th century, when it claims to have been written.

Antiquity of Legislation

Another argument in favor of a late date for Deuteronomy is the complexity of the legislation, which Documentarians say is more advanced and reflects and more refined moral and community life than that underlying the Exodus; essentially, that the Israelites of the Exodus were too primitive to have produced such a complex law code.

Of course, we can retort that the law is given by God, not developed by man. Still, man must be sufficiently cultured to receive, understand and implement that law. Again, here the early origin of Documentarian theories before the great age of archaeology hurts their theory. The complexity of the Mari Tablets (c. 1700 B.C.), the Code of Hammurabi (c. 1750), the Iraqi Nuzi Tablets (c. 1500 B.C.), and Ebla Tablets (c. 2250) and the wealth of material out of Egypt prove that the moral, literary and cultural achievements of the second millennium B.C. rendered their civilizations perfectly capable of receiving a law such as that found in Deuteronomy.

The P Source and Post-Exilic Judaism

The P source - mainly Leviticus, Numbers and those parts of the law associated with priestly ritual - is said to be the last part of Pentateuch to be composed, around 450 B.C., according to the Documentarians. Thus, the ceremonial law reflects not any prescriptions from the 15th century B.C., but rather the post-Exilic period. If this were true, it is difficult to understand why the P texts speak so much about things like the Urim and Thummim, Nazrites, the tabernacle, Ark of the Covenant, cities or refuge, the test of adultery by ordeal, wave offerings and many other things that were complete anachronisms by the post-Exilic period. It also would not explain why there are several features present in post-Exilic Judaism which find no reference in P, like liturgical singing and music, prominence of scribes, designation of the central sanctuary as the "Temple", and of course, the importance of the City of Jerusalem. If P really were written in the post-Exilic period, we would not expect it to contain so many features that were completely absent from post-Exilic Judaism; similarly, we would expect P to contain references to other features that were prominent in post-Exilic Judaism. The fact that we see neither indicates that Leviticus was composed exactly when it claims to have been - during the time of the Exodus.

http://unamsanctamcatholicam.com/history/historical-apologetics/79-history/472-deconstructing-documentary-hypothesis.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 30, 2017, 07:56:53 PM
Spud: If Leviticus - or any of the Pentateuch as we now have it - was composed at the time of the Exodus, I assume you have a whole raft of unequivocal archaeological evidence for a slave population and high ranking adopted Hebrew courtiers in Egypt at a specific time frame to back your assertion up?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Harrowby Hall on January 31, 2017, 12:20:09 PM


...  have absolutely no issues with Semitic populations - even small communities - in Egypt from as early as 2000 BC;... to show Semitic contacts at court lrevel, and the peaceful incursion of Semitic tribes ...
That a group of Semites left Egypt to enter Canaan is perfectly possible - even that a Semitic official  was a high ranking courtier in the Egyptian state is very plausable; ... a small number of Semitic tribesmen occurred....but the rest is conjecture for which there is no proof.

Why do you constantly use "semite" and "semitic" when you are referring to Hebrews?

"Semitic" is a linguistic term, it does not identify a particular ethnicity or culture. The largest "semitic" group are surely the people who speak Arabic, which is easily the largest semitic language.


As for the Biblical account of the Exodus, I suggest that the lack of coprolites in the Sinai Peninsular is evidence of the lack of truth of the story. A crowd of more than million (600,000 plus wives children and hangers-on) each having a daily bowel motion during 40 years would have left some trace.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 31, 2017, 01:36:11 PM
Actually, HH, it does. I don't refer to 'Hebrews' specifically because the tribes who traded with Egypt during the Middle Kingdom and 'ruled' the Delta during the second Intermediate Period were not specifically Hebrew. Their language structure bears a very similar profile to that of Hebrew; many of the names are very evocative of Hebrew; the pottery and statuary are very similar to those of Canaan and the pottery of the first identifiable Hebrew cultures of the area niow known as Israel. The religion, however, was a syncretism between 'native' Egyptian religion, Baal and other extant Middle Eastern religion. In other words, they were Semites, rather than Hebrews.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Harrowby Hall on January 31, 2017, 01:55:12 PM
That is interesting, Anchorman. Are you suggesting, perhaps, that other stories and legends arising in the region than those which specifically related to the people usually identified as the Biblical Hebrews were conflated into "The Bible"? I know that that appears to be true of Babylonian legends and the Gilgamesh story.

Related to this (I suppose) - the Ten Commandments are adapted from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

I have also heard of speculation that the "closing of the Red Sea" (which should be Reed sea?) was possibly inspired by events subsequent to the eruption of Santorini.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 31, 2017, 02:56:28 PM
 The 'Book of the Dead' was never really set in stone (though bits of it were inscribed on it!) It was really a corpus of texts which dated back to the sixth dynasty, just after the great 'pyramid age'. It doesn't deal with things on earth, but is supposed to be a manual filled with get out clauses to enable the deceased to get a free pass to the afterlife. I don't see a correlation with the Ten commandments, HH. As for Thera, it probably erupted around the time of the reunification of Egypt under Ahmose I - at least, that's when there's a tailing off of Mycenaean Greek pottery found in the Delta - which had enjoyed great trade links under the (Semitic) Hyksos rulers from Avaris (Tell Dab'a). There really isn't much geological evidence to suggest any problems from the fallout of the eruption - quite the opposite - the Delta seems to have excelled itself in terms of food production, meaning that the eighteenth dynasty kings could start empire building in the Middle East and far south.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 31, 2017, 03:15:28 PM
 If you're interested in the 'book', here's the Wiki entry for that belonging to Ani: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Book_of_the_Dead_spells And if you want a bit more info on the Ani example, here's the British Museum entry - and the real thing's definitely worth seeing, by the way. http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=113335&partId=1
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 01, 2017, 04:46:28 PM
Actually, HH, it does. I don't refer to 'Hebrews' specifically because the tribes who traded with Egypt during the Middle Kingdom and 'ruled' the Delta during the second Intermediate Period were not specifically Hebrew. Their language structure bears a very similar profile to that of Hebrew; many of the names are very evocative of Hebrew; the pottery and statuary are very similar to those of Canaan and the pottery of the first identifiable Hebrew cultures of the area niow known as Israel. The religion, however, was a syncretism between 'native' Egyptian religion, Baal and other extant Middle Eastern religion. In other words, they were Semites, rather than Hebrews.

We know from Joshua 24 that the Hebrews did not necessarily worship Yahweh when they lived in Egypt:

13'I gave you a land on which you had not labored, and cities which you had not built, and you have lived in them; you are eating of vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.' 14"Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 01, 2017, 05:56:15 PM
We know from Joshua 24 that the Hebrews did not necessarily worship Yahweh when they lived in Egypt:

13'I gave you a land on which you had not labored, and cities which you had not built, and you have lived in them; you are eating of vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant.' 14"Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."



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Hang on, though.
The first mention of 'Yah' ('Yh'. since the Egyptians didn't write vowells in hieroglyphs) occurs in the time of Nebmaatre Amenhotep III, around 1370 BC, on the walls of Karnak. Presumably the scribes got the Name from somewhere, Spud. The same name is used when describing the Jewish Temple at Elephantine in the Saite period - nearly eight centuries later.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 01, 2017, 06:15:12 PM
 There's also the famous YHWH reference at the enigmatic Temple of 'Nebmaatre-in-Jubilee' Amenhotep III in his thirtieth regnal year) which clearly mentions the 'Shashu in the land of Yahweh' . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu I've seen arguments that the 'Yahweh' refers to the Egyptian lunar deity Ah - sometimes spelled Yah - but I'm not convinced; Soleb was concerned with the promulgation of the solar cult, which Amenhotep III promoted above the pre-eminent Amun cult, and would reach new heights under his son, Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 02, 2017, 03:31:58 AM


-
Hang on, though.
The first mention of 'Yah' ('Yh'. since the Egyptians didn't write vowells in hieroglyphs) occurs in the time of Nebmaatre Amenhotep III, around 1370 BC, on the walls of Karnak. Presumably the scribes got the Name from somewhere, Spud. The same name is used when describing the Jewish Temple at Elephantine in the Saite period - nearly eight centuries later.
That and your other yhwh reference suggest that yhwh wasn't heard of in Egypt during the Israelite sojourn there, but was known after the exodus at the time when Israelites made Canaan their home.
Regarding the numbers of Israelites who escaped: how could a small number of them capture entire cities and regions in Canaan?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 02, 2017, 08:57:17 AM
Sorry, it might suggest thatto you, Spud, but the 'Yh' reference on the walls of Karnak and the 'land of Yahweh' reference in the Soleb 'heb-sed' Temple suggest otherwise. Both names are preceded by a 'netjeru' sign. Just as the name of the ruling king (names, actually) was enclosed in a cartouche, so the names of deities, both native Egyptian and foriegn, were preceded (in the New Kingdom, anyway) by a 'netjeru' sign. Netjer was the word the Egyptians used for a major deity. Therefore both 'Yh' and 'Yahweh' must have been acknowledged as a name of a major, non Egyptian, deity by the priestly scribes responsible for the inscriptions.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 02, 2017, 09:19:38 AM
You seem to imply, Spud, that, given the two references to Yw/Yahweh, that the Exodus had already happened when those inscriptions were created. Does that mean that you feel that Canaan had already been conquered by 1370 BC? Because that doesn't work. Here are my reasons for this: 1. 'Ramses'/Piramesee, mentioned in Scripture, was not built before 1250 BC - two centuries after these inscriptions were made. Since the city was purportedly built by Hebrew slaves (if Exodus is correct, which I doubt), there would have to have been a pre-existing population elsewhere worshipping YHWH. 2. The 'Amarna letters', part of a diplomatic correspondance to Amenhotep III, Akhenaten, Neferneferuaten and the young Tutankhaten/amun, cuneform tablets recovered from Akhetaten (Tell el Amarna) mention several kings of the Canaanite region, including a king (probably little more than a tribal chief) of Jerusalem - a Canaanite town which offered tribute to the Egyptian king. This suggests a peaceful trade link between the area which had long been part of the Thutmosid empire, and would remain so for several centuries.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 06, 2017, 08:49:57 PM
Thanks for your ideas Anchorman. Going back to your original post to me:

Spud: If Leviticus - or any of the Pentateuch as we now have it - was composed at the time of the Exodus, I assume you have a whole raft of unequivocal archaeological evidence for a slave population and high ranking adopted Hebrew courtiers in Egypt at a specific time frame to back your assertion up?

Firstly, it was not an assertion, but a conclusion based on observation. Secondly, if we are going to demand evidence for everything in the Bible, what about the resurrection? We only have what the Bible tells us - just as in the account of the Exodus.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on February 06, 2017, 09:03:12 PM
... if we are going to demand evidence for everything in the Bible, what about the resurrection? We only have what the Bible tells us - just as in the account of the Exodus.

Bit of a problem that, Spud (I'd say much more than a bit!).
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 06, 2017, 09:27:31 PM
Thanks for your ideas Anchorman. Going back to your original post to me:

Firstly, it was not an assertion, but a conclusion based on observation. Secondly, if we are going to demand evidence for everything in the Bible, what about the resurrection? We only have what the Bible tells us - just as in the account of the Exodus.






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The thread was started by Sass to examine a spurious claim of remains of the Egyptian army, Spud - not the Resurrection.
Now, I'm the first to admit that the Egyptians would never write about a defeat. About the best they'd manage was boasting about a draw - as in the Battle of Kadesh.
However, even though the preservation in the Delta is poor (I know this from personal experience in the field), the fact that no mass graves or cemeteries have been found anywhere near Tell Qantir - the ancient site of 'Rameses'; shows that no mass burials or even burials over an extended period of time took place there.
If a slave population existed in the area for any length of time, where are the bodies?
Where are the remains of pottery? hearths? We have found none which matches any Semitic style pottery.
Any remains we have were buried in typical Egyptian style, with a few 'Bes' amulets and Osiris knots as protection and guarantee for 'Amduat' - the next world.
Nothing Semitic, or any evidence of slavery.
Indeed slavery as the Greeks and Romans practiced it was unknown in Egypt.
Slaves were usually the property of the state - and invariably captured prisoners from either Syrio-Palestinian or Sudan military expeditions.
At the time 'Ramses'/Piramesse was constructed, Egypt was somewhat jittery, fearing invasion from both Lybians, who had begun to settle in the Delta (and would go on to rule Egypt for centuries),and a coalition of seafarers  known as the 'Sea Peoples' (who would later form the Philistines, among other tribes). That's why Ramesses II built 'Ramses' in the first place - as a military capital frontier city to watch the surrounding lands.
I ask again; do you have any evidence for a slave workforce population in the Nile Delta. please?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 07, 2017, 12:21:56 PM
........and, as if by magic; The very latest - and fascinating - discoveries at Tel Qantir - Piramesse AKA 'Ramses'. http://luxortimesmagazine.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/german-archaeologists-discover-ancient.html?m=1#!/2017/02/german-archaeologists-discover-ancient.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 08, 2017, 07:16:56 PM
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The thread was started by Sass to examine a spurious claim of remains of the Egyptian army, Spud - not the Resurrection.
Now, I'm the first to admit that the Egyptians would never write about a defeat. About the best they'd manage was boasting about a draw - as in the Battle of Kadesh.
However, even though the preservation in the Delta is poor (I know this from personal experience in the field), the fact that no mass graves or cemeteries have been found anywhere near Tell Qantir - the ancient site of 'Rameses'; shows that no mass burials or even burials over an extended period of time took place there.
If a slave population existed in the area for any length of time, where are the bodies?
Where are the remains of pottery? hearths? We have found none which matches any Semitic style pottery.
Any remains we have were buried in typical Egyptian style, with a few 'Bes' amulets and Osiris knots as protection and guarantee for 'Amduat' - the next world.
Nothing Semitic, or any evidence of slavery.
Indeed slavery as the Greeks and Romans practiced it was unknown in Egypt.
Slaves were usually the property of the state - and invariably captured prisoners from either Syrio-Palestinian or Sudan military expeditions.
At the time 'Ramses'/Piramesse was constructed, Egypt was somewhat jittery, fearing invasion from both Lybians, who had begun to settle in the Delta (and would go on to rule Egypt for centuries),and a coalition of seafarers  known as the 'Sea Peoples' (who would later form the Philistines, among other tribes). That's why Ramesses II built 'Ramses' in the first place - as a military capital frontier city to watch the surrounding lands.
I ask again; do you have any evidence for a slave workforce population in the Nile Delta. please?

Hi AM,
I've spent a bit of time reading up on the historicity of the Exodus, and would like to mention a few things:

1. In Exodus 12 it says,
37Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children. 38A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock.
(a) This Rameses seems to have existed in the time of Joseph (Genesis 47:11)
(b) From Exodus 18 we learn that the figure of 600,000 seems genuine, as it says that Moses chose men and made them leaders of thousands (and hundreds, fifties and tens). 12:38 reads as though the mixed multitude are in addition to the 600,000 Israelite men; I wonder if they were included in that number though?

2. I can't give you archaeological evidence for a large slave population. Bear in mind though that they were only slaves for 100 years at most, and it was over 3000 years ago. Here are a few interesting finds:

(a)
Quote
A papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom was found in the early 19th century in Egypt [6]. It seems to be an eyewitness account of the events preceding the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. Its author, an Egyptian named Ipuwer, writes:

Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
The river is blood.
That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
Trees are destroyed.
No fruit or herbs are found...
Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
The land is not light [dark].

http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.html

(b) I found some of the "9 Reasons to Believe That the Biblical Exodus Actually Happened" in the link below to be quite convincing. For example:

Quote
3. In the exodus account, pharaohs are simply called “Pharaoh,” whereas in later biblical passages, Egyptian monarchs are referred to by their proper name, as in “Pharaoh Necho” (2 Kings 23:29). This, too, echoes usage in Egypt itself, where, from the middle of the second millennium until the tenth century BCE, the title “Pharaoh” was used alone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-adam-jacobs/9-reasons-to-believe-that_b_7968204.html

3. There seems to be a theory that the generally accepted chronology of Egyptian history needs to be revised, to account for overlapping of various dynasties.

Again, it isn't what you were hoping for, but not having any previous experience in Archaeology I'm just going on stuff available online.

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 08, 2017, 07:23:46 PM
Quote
1. There is rich evidence that West-Semitic populations lived in the eastern Nile delta—what the Bible calls Goshen—for most of the second millennium. Some were slaves, some were raised in Pharaoh’s court, and some, like Moses, bore Egyptian names.

2. We know today that the great pharaoh Ramesses II, who reigned from 1279 to 1213 BCE, built a huge administrative center out of mudbrick in an area where large Semitic populations had lived for centuries. It was called Pi-Ramesses. Exodus (1:11) specifies that the Hebrew slaves built the cities of Pithom and Ramesses, a possible reference to Pi-Ramesses. The site was abandoned by the pharaohs two centuries later.

3. In the exodus account, pharaohs are simply called “Pharaoh,” whereas in later biblical passages, Egyptian monarchs are referred to by their proper name, as in “Pharaoh Necho” (2 Kings 23:29). This, too, echoes usage in Egypt itself, where, from the middle of the second millennium until the tenth century BCE, the title “Pharaoh” was used alone.

4. The names of various national entities mentioned in the Song at the Sea (Exodus 15:1-18)—Philistines, Moabites, Edomites, et al.—are all found in Egyptian sources shortly before 1200 BCE; about this, the book of Exodus is again correct for the period.

5. The stories of the exodus and the Israelites’ subsequent wanderings in the wilderness reflect sound acquaintance with the geography and natural conditions of the eastern Nile delta, the Sinai peninsula, the Negev, and Transjordan.

6. The book of Exodus (13:17) notes that the Israelites chose not to traverse the Sinai peninsula along the northern, coastal route toward modern-day Gaza because that would have entailed military engagement. The discovery of extensive Egyptian fortifications all along that route from the period in question confirms the accuracy of this observation.

7. Archaeologists have documented hundreds of new settlements in the land of Israel from the late-13th and 12th centuries BCE, congruent with the biblically attested arrival there of the liberated slaves; strikingly, these settlements feature an absence of the pig bones normally found in such places. Major destruction is found at Bethel, Yokne’am, and Hatzor—cities taken by Israel according to the book of Joshua. At Hatzor, archaeologists found mutilated cultic statues, suggesting that they were repugnant to the invaders.

8. The earliest written mention of an entity called “Israel” is found in the victory inscription of the pharaoh Merneptah from 1206 BCE. In it the pharaoh lists the nations defeated by him in the course of a campaign to the southern Levant; among them, “Israel is laid waste and his seed is no more.” “Israel” is written in such a way as to connote a group of people, not an established city or region, the implication being that it was not yet a fully settled entity with contiguous control over an entire region. This jibes with the Bible’s description in Joshua and Judges of a gradual conquest of the land.

9. Professor Berman gives a good deal of background for the remainder of his piece on the similarities between the structures of the Tabernacle and the battle compound of Ramesses II as well as the Book of Exodus’s “Song of the Sea” and an Egyptian battle hymn known as the “Kadesh Poem.” He explains that Maimonides held that the Torah makes liberal use of the material of other nations as a kind of “cultural appropriation.” But in this case, how could the Torah’s author have known about the details of these highly specific Egyptian references had they not been privy to them - as part of that culture? As Rabbi Berman explains:

The evidence suggests that the Exodus text preserves the memory of a moment when the earliest Israelites reached for language with which to extol the mighty virtues of God, and found the raw material in the terms and tropes of an Egyptian text well-known to them. In appropriating and “transvaluing” that material, they put forward the claim that the God of Israel had far outdone the greatest achievement of the greatest earthly potentate.

Like many events that occurred in the past and are explored through sciences such as forensics, evolutionary biology and archaeology, researchers are working with only limited and fragmentary information as R Berman says, “Proofs exist in geometry, and sometimes in law, but rarely within the fields of biblical studies and archaeology. As is so often the case, the record at our disposal is highly incomplete, and speculation about cultural transmission must remain contingent.” Ultimately, the “mesorah” - the Judaic chain of transmission from one generation to the next - speaks to me more than whatever biblical scholarship and archaeology “dig up,” but for those who need an official scientific stamp of approval before taking something seriously, this is real grist for the mill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-adam-jacobs/9-reasons-to-believe-that_b_7968204.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 08, 2017, 07:36:46 PM
Hi AM,
I've spent a bit of time reading up on the historicity of the Exodus, and would like to mention a few things:

1. In Exodus 12 it says,
37Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children. 38A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock.
(a) This Rameses seems to have existed in the time of Joseph (Genesis 47:11)
(b) From Exodus 18 we learn that the figure of 600,000 seems genuine, as it says that Moses chose men and made them leaders of thousands (and hundreds, fifties and tens). 12:38 reads as though the mixed multitude are in addition to the 600,000 Israelite men; I wonder if they were included in that number though?

2. I can't give you archaeological evidence for a large slave population. Bear in mind though that they were only slaves for 100 years at most, and it was over 3000 years ago. Here are a few interesting finds:

(a)
http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.html

(b) I found some of the "9 Reasons to Believe That the Biblical Exodus Actually Happened" in the link below to be quite convincing. For example:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-adam-jacobs/9-reasons-to-believe-that_b_7968204.html

3. There seems to be a theory that the generally accepted chronology of Egyptian history needs to be revised, to account for overlapping of various dynasties.

Again, it isn't what you were hoping for, but not having any previous experience in Archaeology I'm just going on stuff available online.





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Your references are pretty commonplace, Spud - and refer to events in what we call the 'First Intermediate Period' - a period when low Nile floods precipitated a collapse in central authority ruling from Memphis, and several ruling families ruling a divided Egypt. My own preference is from the tomb of Ankhtifi, when the owner even hints at cannibalism and that he was the only one who 'rescued the land'.
The fact is that you need to take tomb biographies very carefully, and in context. Their purpose wasn't really to tell the truth, but exaggerate the status of the tomb owner - especially when Egypt was divided. We see very similar inscriptions a few centuries later, in the Scond Intermediate Period - and in my own area, the Third - from 1000-525 BC. In fact, I can point to a papyrus  belonging to a certain Nakhtnebef, who claims
"I fed the land when the Nile ran with blood; I kept the land when the locusts brougght famine and the king could not be found".
Pretty close to the Exodus, Eh?
Problem is that it dates to around 580 BC!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 08, 2017, 07:47:14 PM
Are you asserting that Exodus Happened in the ninth century BC, Spud? Because the Pentateuch keeps calling the Egyptian king 'Pharaoh' - transliterated from the Egyptian 'per-aa 'Great house' a word first applied to the court in the time of the female king Hatshepsut. The word was never used as a royal title or substitute for king before the time of king NetjerKheperre Setepenre Siamun (r 978-959) So either the Exodus happened AFTER that time, or the title, which had become common by the Saite period (when Nekhau was king) was known when the Pentateuch was re-written and edited into the form we know today.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on February 09, 2017, 09:18:01 PM

(b) From Exodus 18 we learn that the figure of 600,000 seems genuine, as it says that Moses chose men and made them leaders of thousands (and hundreds, fifties and tens).

That's just not a credible figure. 600,000 men means at least an equivalent number of women and children and all the livestock (where did slaves get livestock?) Let's call it a round million people. That is a fair sized city. Now imagine they camp for a day in the desert.

How many animals do you have to slaughter to feed everybody? If it is one cow per hundred people - an underestimate I am sure - that's a pile of 10,000 cow skeletons to dispose of. Where are they? Why haven't archaeologists found them?

Also, a million people: assume they all live to be 50, that means every year, 2% of the population must die - 20,000 people or about 54 a day. Why do we not see a trail of Hebrew graveyards throughout the Sinai?

Also, imagine what a million people would look like tramping through the desert. When Germany invaded Belgium at the beginning of WW1 they had a force of 750,000 men. Eye witnesses reported it took the columns days to march past them because of their length and this was a disciplined well organised force marching to a tight time table.

The numbers are simply not credible.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 09, 2017, 10:20:42 PM
Here's a site comparing Egyptian demography. http://www.aldokkan.com/society/demography.htm - I'd suggest that Breasted has a tendancy to exaggerate, and that, in New Kingdom Egypt, with a stable economy and a series of high Nile inundations in the eighteenth and nineteenth dynasties till around 1200 BC, the population of the entire country could not have been more than four million. Around a million of those would have lived in Lower Egypt - the Delta . Had half a million people suddenly upped sticks and gone, not only would there be evidence of anbandoned settlements, but the economy would have collapsed, precipitating internal strife and collapse of central authority (as happened at times of low Nile inundation, famine, invasion, etc) This simply did not happen.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 10, 2017, 11:01:15 AM
Are you asserting that Exodus Happened in the ninth century BC, Spud? Because the Pentateuch keeps calling the Egyptian king 'Pharaoh' - transliterated from the Egyptian 'per-aa 'Great house' a word first applied to the court in the time of the female king Hatshepsut. The word was never used as a royal title or substitute for king before the time of king NetjerKheperre Setepenre Siamun (r 978-959) So either the Exodus happened AFTER that time, or the title, which had become common by the Saite period (when Nekhau was king) was known when the Pentateuch was re-written and edited into the form we know today.

Wikipedia seems to disagree with you that the word was never used as a royal title or substitute for king before 978-959:

Quote
During the reign of Thutmose III (circa 1479–1425 BC) in the New Kingdom, after the foreign rule of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period, pharaoh became the form of address for a person who was king.[5]

The earliest instance where pr-aa is used specifically to address the ruler is in a letter to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), who reigned circa 1353–1336 BC, which is addressed to 'Pharaoh, all life, prosperity, and health!.[6] During the eighteenth dynasty (16th to 14th centuries BC) the title pharaoh was employed as a reverential designation of the ruler. About the late twenty-first dynasty (10th century BC), however, instead of being used alone as before, it began to be added to the other titles before the ruler's name, and from the twenty-fifth dynasty (eighth to seventh centuries BC) it was, at least in ordinary usage, the only epithet prefixed to the royal appellative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on February 10, 2017, 11:54:47 AM
Wikipedia seems to disagree with you that the word was never used as a royal title or substitute for king before 978-959:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh

Probably a Wiki entry written by Spud himself!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 10, 2017, 01:38:46 PM
Wikipedia seems to disagree with you that the word was never used as a royal title or substitute for king before 978-959:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh



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Er.........
You DO know that the rule of Hatshepsut occured entirely within the tenure of Thutmose III, don't you, Spud?
So the term 'pr-aa' was apropriate for the use of the court of the joint kings - The Egyptians themselves had trouble with grammer, trying to deal with the concept of a female king.
As for the Amarna letters? The text can be read  as follows;
"To the great house OF Naphuria....."
'Naphuria' being an attempt to render into cuneiform the prenomen - the official name - of Akhenaten, 'Neferkheperure Waenre'.
Spot on with the dyn 21 reference - Siamun was a rather obscure Tanite dyn XXI ruler.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 11, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
The word was never used as a royal title or substitute for king before the time of king NetjerKheperre Setepenre Siamun (r 978-959)

That is the first ruler to whose name the title Pharaoh was attached. An induction of an individual to the Amun priesthood is dated specifically to the reign of Pharaoh Siamun on a fragment from the Karnak Priestly Annals. Thus, point 3 in post #81 is correct when it says that post-Pentateuch references to Pharaoh use the proper name in addition to the title Pharaoh.

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Er.........
You DO know that the rule of Hatshepsut occured entirely within the tenure of Thutmose III, don't you, Spud?
So the term 'pr-aa' was apropriate for the use of the court of the joint kings - The Egyptians themselves had trouble with grammer, trying to deal with the concept of a female king.
Yes I am aware of that. As far as I am aware there is no record of kings or queens from that era being addressed as Pharaoh.
Quote
As for the Amarna letters? The text can be read  as follows;
"To the great house OF Naphuria....."
'Naphuria' being an attempt to render into cuneiform the prenomen - the official name - of Akhenaten, 'Neferkheperure Waenre'.

I had a look through the Amarna letters here: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/amarnaletters.html

There are no instances of the king being called Pharaoh in the correspondence with Amenhotep III. But I found four instances, which I have put in bold, in a letter from a Canaanite ruler called Ribb-Addi who later wrote similar letters to Akhenaten (son of Amenhotep III):

Still the king, my lord, says: "For what reason art thou sending him to me?" Behold me; there is no governor in my service from the city of Zemar, and still the face of every one (is) towards me and the two men of Egypt whom I send to Pharaoh. There is no going forth, there is no sending to the king; there is no man who will carry my letter to Pharaoh. Now these two men will carry a letter to the king, but I myself go not forth. Always am I afraid and turn my face towards [the king] my lord. I send [ ] thy lord, since he will go up (?) [ ] I will send (?) on the days [ ] and I send to Pharaoh, and he will send and will cause soldiers to come [ ] ......

A man of Yari[muta]. At the gate I (stand). A [ ] I send [to] Pharaoh for the protection of the men of the country of Milu[kha]; but thou dost not hear; yet why is the king constantly sending men of the guard [from] the country of Milukha to its defence? They have not [surrendered] the city to the Beduin.

http://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/EAribbaddi.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 11, 2017, 04:09:58 PM
You will note that the terms 'per-aa' and 'king' are used in the same letter, Spud? Doesn't that suggest that the former - per-aa - was intended to mean the court of the king, and the latter the kingg? This would be more probable, since we know that most of the diplomatic correspondance was handled through the Great Royal Wife Tiye, rather than the king himself.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 14, 2017, 12:19:26 AM
Not necessarily, Jim. This phrase indicates that 'Pharaoh' refers to the king himself: "and I send to Pharaoh, and he will send and will cause soldiers to come"
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 14, 2017, 12:29:43 AM
It's worth noting, though, that the king of Egypt is called 'Pharaoh' as early as Genesis 12:15 in the story of Abraham
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 14, 2017, 09:12:31 AM
It's worth noting, though, that the king of Egypt is called 'Pharaoh' as early as Genesis 12:15 in the story of Abraham
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Thanks for making my point, Spud.
That means that either the entire corpus of Egyptian pharonic titulary uis wrong,
or Abraham was in Egypt during or after the time of Siamun.

Of course, it could also be proof positive of a rewriting of the Pentateuch well after the term was part of Pharonic titulary.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 14, 2017, 09:39:11 AM
 A gentle reminder, Spud. Given that there is simply no evidence for a massive slave population in the Delta; Given that slavery in Egypt was a concept different from that in Greece, Rome or Persia; Can you pin down when you think the events in the later part of Genesis and the early part of Exodus took place, please - and why? If there is simply no evidence in archaeology for these events taking place as described in the Pentateuch, doesn't that suggest that the books of Moses were rewritten at a later date? Thanks.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 16, 2017, 04:34:32 PM
It's worth noting, though, that the king of Egypt is called 'Pharaoh' as early as Genesis 12:15 in the story of Abraham
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Thanks for making my point, Spud.
That means that either the entire corpus of Egyptian pharonic titulary uis wrong,
or Abraham was in Egypt during or after the time of Siamun.

Of course, it could also be proof positive of a rewriting of the Pentateuch well after the term was part of Pharonic titulary.

The quote in message 89 proves that the title, "Pharaoh" could have been in use from the time of Akhenaten. Of course the story would have been written up long after the events took place, hence the title being used for the king of Egypt at the time of Abram, in the book of Genesis.

Even if the story was rewritten around 600 BC or whenever, the details it contains strongly suggest that the original sources were eyewitnesses. For example, mud bricks made with straw, and other details described here:

http://bibleistrue.com/qna/pqna69.htm
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48967121.html

The first link points out that most buildings made from mud bricks would not have survived for long (ie centuries).
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 16, 2017, 06:23:11 PM
Are you suggesting that Akhenaten was either king of Egypt or had any connections with those who worshipped YHWH? Because if you are, you are entering the trap of wishful thinking and romantic history. Despite what you've read, Akhenaten didn't destroy any religious foundations in the Delta; the temples at Heliopolis, Memphis, Bubastis, Sais and Avaris remained functional, if reduced in status. Indeed, Akhenaten was responsible for the second Apis Bull burial at Sakkara, and dedication stelae to Ptah of Memphis. That means that the Delta continued to function as it had before he came to the throne, and remained so through the turbulance of his successor(s). There is no evidence of any deposits which suggest Semitic or Asiatic settlement in the Delta at this time. None.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 16, 2017, 07:38:12 PM
No, just saying that the title, "Pharaoh" could have been in use from the time of Akhenaten, bearing in mind the letter from Ribb-Addi.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 16, 2017, 08:09:56 PM
No, just saying that the title, "Pharaoh" could have been in use from the time of Akhenaten, bearing in mind the letter from Ribb-Addi.



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Given the somewhat unique situation of Egypt during his complex rule, I'd suggest that it's unsafe to make that assumption.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 17, 2017, 01:30:26 AM
Fair enough, but one can't help thinking that you actually don't want there to be any archaeological evidence for the Exodus. I've given you two links, which give convincing evidence that the story originated from eyewitness accounts. But you seem to ignore anything that might actually prove the Bible to be accurate. Why?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 17, 2017, 09:33:34 AM
Fair enough, but one can't help thinking that you actually don't want there to be any archaeological evidence for the Exodus. I've given you two links, which give convincing evidence that the story originated from eyewitness accounts. But you seem to ignore anything that might actually prove the Bible to be accurate. Why?


Spud:
What I 'want' is irrelevant.
Archaeology doesn't work that way.
What it does is work with the available evidence, and try to build the history round it.
Sometimes new evidence comes around to shake up the established histories; in that case, if they are in any way true to their discipline, the historians will try to reconstruct the period in question with the new evidence included.
It wasn't always like that. Take a young man, skilled in draughtsmanship and a committed evangelical, determined to prove what he thought the Bible was in his mind.
He entered an Egypt newly administered by Britain and France; was stunned by the pyramids, which, like many of his day, he thought to be a message from God.
As his draughtmanship took over, he realised the truth, and from that moment till his death, he excavated the remote past.
We have him to thank for much of the predynastic and early dynastic dating of Egypt (and showing that the land was not affected by a cataclysmic flood).
His name? W.M.Flinders Petrie - and he remained a committed Christian till he died.
There should be a lesson there for you: that it's perfectly possible to be an evangelical yet accept that the Pentateuch is not historically accurate.

I ask again the two questions I have posed:
1: Where is the archaeology for a slave population of massive proportions in the Egyptian Delta?:
and
2) When do you propose the Exodus occurred (if it happened as set out in Exodus) and why?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 17, 2017, 12:10:45 PM
Anch,

Again, fair enough. If you find there is no evidence for the 2 million Israelites in Egypt and subsequent journey through Sinai then you are free to believe the Bible is historically inaccurate.

As I look at this I am finding stuff in the Pentateuch that agrees with archaeology - that's why I thought maybe you have your head in the sand. It's similar to the argument for the authenticity of the gospels: details that strongly point to eyewitness sources. So for example, there are remains of buildings made from mud mixed with straw in the Delta region. The first of my links says, "small but significant details, such as these mud bricks, point to an author directly familiar with the circumstances and practices of Egypt in the appropriate timeframe. If written in Babylon (Mesopotamia) or even in Canaan, they likely would have reflected local practice in making up such a story. But our Bible account is written by a divinely inspired eyewitness from Egypt."
For me that is an exciting find, but you don't seem that interested.

Quote
2) When do you propose the Exodus occurred (if it happened as set out in Exodus) and why?
Going by the biblical data I think it was about 1350 1450 BC? Will get back to you on the exact working. That assumes the generally accepted chronology based on Manetho is correct. A different chronology has been proposed, so that the Exodus could have been centuries before that. One idea is that the Hyksos were the Amalakites, who entered and easily took over lower Egypt after encountering the Israelites on their way out.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 17, 2017, 12:33:55 PM
Again; a few mud brick houses don't constitute a slave population. Mud brick dwellings are as commion as....er...dirt. I've even excavated one - next to the midden at Djanet (Tanis) which, incidentally, is where most of the stone buildings of Piramesse ('Ramses') ended up. As for 1350 BC? Seriously? In 1350, Egypt was at the height of her power; her influence stretched as far as the Euphrates - and she controlled what is now all of Israel/Palestine and Southern Syria - and would remain in control of that area for nearly two centuries. Any new 'nation' setting up home in Canaan would have come to the notice of the court, and would not have had a hope of surviving without sending tribute to Egypt, and allowing Egyptian officials to oversee the state. Again, not a shred of evidence for this in either Israel or Egypt.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 17, 2017, 01:09:38 PM
If you're interested in the relations between Egypt and other Middle Eastern states from c1600-1200, here's a relatively simple overview from University College, London. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/foreignrelations/asiank.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: DaveM on February 18, 2017, 07:23:27 PM
Whether there was an early c1446 BC or a late c 1260 BC date for the Exodus is not a major issue for me and one which I have not researched in any depth.  However, from what I have read I note that there is good support from reputable proponents for both views, the archaeological claims of each side being strongly challenged by the other.  Having only a rudimentary knowledge of archaeology I am unable to make any judgements on the archaeological merits of the evidence provided by the two sides, but in the absence of any general consensus from the experts my preference is to settle for an early date as this seems to fit better with the internal evidence of Scripture.  Points which carry weight in my view would include:

The well-known 1 Kings 6 passage which says, “In the four hundred and eightieth year after the people of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel … he began to build the house of the Lord.” By the time of the kings there is growing confidence in date estimates with the currently accepted date for the fourth year of Solomon’s reign being c 967/966 BC. Thus 480 years before that would be 1446 BC.

Support for this is also found in the genealogies provided in I Chronicles.  1 Chron 6:33–37, names 18 generations from Korah, in the time of Moses, to Heman, in the time of David.  This would then give 19 generations from Moses to Solomon. Nineteen generations in 480 years works out to an average of 25.3 years per generation, a reasonable number that gives good support to the view that a literal understanding of the 480 years in 1 Kings 6:1 was intended.

I am aware that proponents of a late Exodus consider the “480 years” of 1 Kings 6:1 as being a representative number to stand for 12 idealised generations of 40 years each. But in reality the period covered in this view of 300 years would comprise 12 ‘idealised’ generations of only 25 years each.  Moreover the actual 19 generations of 1 Chronicles would then represent an average of less than 16 years per generation, a difficult figure to justify.     
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 18, 2017, 07:35:00 PM
I don't dispute that there was an exodus of a sort, Dave - just not in the way Exodus puts it. The problem with your Scriptural view is that it does not accord with the situation either in Egypt, or, for that matter, the existing nation states in the Middle East (Naharin or Mitanni don't even get a mention in Exodus, but both were power brokers alongside an expansionist Egypt at this time period.) That Scripture ignores the fact of these states' existance - and the glaring fact that Wgypt held diplomatic and to an extent military sway over what is now Israel and southern Syria during both times suggests that Exodus was either set at some other time for which we have no evidence, or edited at a time when political necessity meant re-setting events in a way which would fit into the mind set of the time.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 23, 2017, 03:58:44 PM
Hi Anchorman,
You've motivated me to start reading up on ancient Egypt. I was wondering if you have heard much about the revised chronology? From a table in 'The New Answers Book 2' :-

Dynasties 1-2:     2150-1800 BC
Dynasties 3-6      2100-1580 BC
Dynasties 7-10:   1400-1050 BC
Dynasties 11-12: 1800-1400 BC
Dynasties 13-17: 1400-1050 BC
Dynasties 18-20: 1050-550 BC
Dynasties 21-25: 800-500 BC
Dynasties 26-30: 650-380 BC

The first dynasty starts some time after the Tower of Babel, about 2150 BC. 7-10 are concurrent with 13-17. 18-20 are concurrent with the attack of Shishak on Jerusalem during the reign of Rehoboam. The events in the life of Joseph, the oppression of the Israelites, Moses, and the Exodus all occur during the 12th and 13th dynasties.

You can read the full explanation here:

https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/ancient-egypt/doesnt-egyptian-chronology-prove-bible-unreliable/
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Nearly Sane on February 23, 2017, 04:22:20 PM
As an aside, I always think this thread is going ng to be about something else when it shows up as the last posted in on the opening page as 'Archeologists Disco...'
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 23, 2017, 05:16:24 PM
Hi Anchorman,
You've motivated me to start reading up on ancient Egypt. I was wondering if you have heard much about the revised chronology? From a table in 'The New Answers Book 2' :-

Dynasties 1-2:     2150-1800 BC
Dynasties 3-6      2100-1580 BC
Dynasties 7-10:   1400-1050 BC
Dynasties 11-12: 1800-1400 BC
Dynasties 13-17: 1400-1050 BC
Dynasties 18-20: 1050-550 BC
Dynasties 21-25: 800-500 BC
Dynasties 26-30: 650-380 BC

The first dynasty starts some time after the Tower of Babel, about 2150 BC. 7-10 are concurrent with 13-17. 18-20 are concurrent with the attack of Shishak on Jerusalem during the reign of Rehoboam. The events in the life of Joseph, the oppression of the Israelites, Moses, and the Exodus all occur during the 12th and 13th dynasties.

You can read the full explanation here:

https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/ancient-egypt/doesnt-egyptian-chronology-prove-bible-unreliable/



-
Hi. Spud.
I attrended a seminar a few years back at which David Rohl - one of the proponents of the RC - was a speaker.
He's actually a fine author, though I, along with all mainstream Egyptophiles, dismiss his conclusions out of hand.
The Accepted chronology is not, of course, accurate to within a day or two - actually, from before c800-17oo it can vary as much as twenty years either way, but most agree that's about it.
Rohl has to be lumped in with Hancock as far as dating goes!

Besides, from the twenty first dynasty onward - c1000 BC - Egypt's history seems to confirm much of the content of Kings and Chronicles in Scripture.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 23, 2017, 05:17:54 PM
As an aside, I always think this thread is going ng to be about something else when it shows up as the last posted in on the opening page as 'Archeologists Disco...'

-
Dig 'em crazy pyramid shaped rocks, man.....you get kinda wrapped up in Egypt stuff.....sorry....
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on February 23, 2017, 05:27:35 PM

-

The Accepted chronology is not, of course, accurate to within a day or two - actually, from before c800-17oo it can vary as much as twenty years either way, but most agree that's about it.
Rohl has to be lumped in with Hancock as far as dating goes!



Hello Anchorman

Any thoughts on Graham Phillips? I thought his 'Moses Legacy' at least interesting, and although a bit in the wacky camp, not to be compared with the idiocies of Erich von Daniken.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 23, 2017, 09:07:03 PM
Hello Anchorman

Any thoughts on Graham Phillips? I thought his 'Moses Legacy' at least interesting, and although a bit in the wacky camp, not to be compared with the idiocies of Erich von Daniken.


-TBH, I hadn't read much on Phillips, DU.
There are so many naff authors peddling theories based more on wishful thinking than evidence that I gave up yonks ago (I think Hancock had a lot to do with that).
I'll have to have a shuftie and get back to you.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Nearly Sane on February 23, 2017, 09:12:12 PM

-TBH, I hadn't read much on Phillips, DU.
There are so many naff authors peddling theories based more on wishful thinking than evidence that I gave up yonks ago (I think Hancock had a lot to do with that).
I'll have to have a shuftie and get back to you.

I haven't read the book DU is talking about, but I read his Arthur and the Grail stuff and dear god, kill me now! Sorry DU
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 23, 2017, 09:18:03 PM
I haven't read the book DU is talking about, but I read his Arthur and the Grail stuff and dear god, kill me now! Sorry DU

-
That bad, NS?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Nearly Sane on February 23, 2017, 09:22:13 PM
I haven't read the book DU is talking about, but I read his Arthur and the Grail stuff and dear god, kill me now! Sorry DU

-
That bad, NS?
I hate the whole 'if you think of blue, like it is green,  and John like it's Fulke, and .... Like it is and this is the grail. And he seemed to indulge in that
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 23, 2017, 09:22:47 PM
Might as well post this here, since it deals with the latest fragments from the remains of Pi-Ramesse ('Ramses') http://www.archaeology.org/news/5324-170222-egypt-child-footprints
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 23, 2017, 10:56:56 PM
Hi Anchorman,
You've motivated me to start reading up on ancient Egypt. I was wondering if you have heard much about the revised chronology? From a table in 'The New Answers Book 2' :-

Dynasties 1-2:     2150-1800 BC
Dynasties 3-6      2100-1580 BC
Dynasties 7-10:   1400-1050 BC
Dynasties 11-12: 1800-1400 BC
Dynasties 13-17: 1400-1050 BC
Dynasties 18-20: 1050-550 BC
Dynasties 21-25: 800-500 BC
Dynasties 26-30: 650-380 BC

The first dynasty starts some time after the Tower of Babel, about 2150 BC. 7-10 are concurrent with 13-17. 18-20 are concurrent with the attack of Shishak on Jerusalem during the reign of Rehoboam. The events in the life of Joseph, the oppression of the Israelites, Moses, and the Exodus all occur during the 12th and 13th dynasties.

You can read the full explanation here:

https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/ancient-egypt/doesnt-egyptian-chronology-prove-bible-unreliable/




-
As posted earlier, I am perfectly happy with the conventional dating, Spud.
Here's a simplistic link to a news story from a few years back which uses science to confirm it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10345875

Should you wish, I can provide the relevent research links to Oxford University.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Dicky Underpants on February 24, 2017, 04:23:02 PM
I haven't read the book DU is talking about, but I read his Arthur and the Grail stuff and dear god, kill me now! Sorry DU

Oh gawd! If I'd known he was a 'find the True Grail' enthusiast, I doubt very much whether I'd have read the book I mentioned. I lost patience with that kind of thing after wading through the arse-gravy of Baigent and Lee (and realising that all this Grail nonsense really stems from the imagination of Chretien de Troyes).
However, I did read Phillips' speculations about Moses - in which the main point seemed to be his belief that the Biblical Moses was a composite of two characters for whom there is some historical evidence* (whereas there is no historical evidence for a single Moses figure as described in the OT - apart from the OT itself). His arguments didn't seem too outlandish, though how accurate his dating was, I wouldn't know.
As for Graham Hancock - I parted company with him well over ten years ago after reading his book 'Supernatural', in which he ends by drinking a litre of soup made from the hallucinogenic psylocybe semilanceata. Anybody know if the experience imparted supernal revelations to him? Has he published much since?


*
Quote
Graham proposes that Moses had in fact been two separate historical figures who later became confused as one. The first, the man who originally converted the Israelites to monotheism, was a dissident court official named Tuthmosis who was banished from Egypt around 1460 BC, and the second, the man who confronted the pharaoh and led the Israelites out of captivity, was an exiled prince, also called Tuthmosis, who lived around a century later. The word Moses, meaning "the son", Graham suggests, was a shortening of this name.


quoted here:

www.grahamphillips.net/moses/moses.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 24, 2017, 04:28:25 PM
Last I heard Hancock was engaged on making yet another series for National Geographic - a publication which takes dumbing down to a new level of banality since it changed owners.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on February 24, 2017, 06:05:35 PM

-
Hi. Spud.
I attrended a seminar a few years back at which David Rohl - one of the proponents of the RC - was a speaker.
He's actually a fine author, though I, along with all mainstream Egyptophiles, dismiss his conclusions out of hand.
The Accepted chronology is not, of course, accurate to within a day or two - actually, from before c800-17oo it can vary as much as twenty years either way, but most agree that's about it.
Rohl has to be lumped in with Hancock as far as dating goes!

Besides, from the twenty first dynasty onward - c1000 BC - Egypt's history seems to confirm much of the content of Kings and Chronicles in Scripture.

Happy to assume the accepted chronology for the purpose of discussion. How about a date of some time after the battle of Kadesh, for the exodus? Early 12th century BC? Maybe it was some time between the decline of the Egyptian and Hittite empires and the renewed Egyptian attack on Judah and Israel at the time of Rehoboam.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 24, 2017, 06:51:43 PM
Oh gawd! If I'd known he was a 'find the True Grail' enthusiast, I doubt very much whether I'd have read the book I mentioned. I lost patience with that kind of thing after wading through the arse-gravy of Baigent and Lee (and realising that all this Grail nonsense really stems from the imagination of Chretien de Troyes).
However, I did read Phillips' speculations about Moses - in which the main point seemed to be his belief that the Biblical Moses was a composite of two characters for whom there is some historical evidence* (whereas there is no historical evidence for a single Moses figure as described in the OT - apart from the OT itself). His arguments didn't seem too outlandish, though how accurate his dating was, I wouldn't know.
As for Graham Hancock - I parted company with him well over ten years ago after reading his book 'Supernatural', in which he ends by drinking a litre of soup made from the hallucinogenic psylocybe semilanceata. Anybody know if the experience imparted supernal revelations to him? Has he published much since?


*

quoted here:

www.grahamphillips.net/moses/moses.html




"Thutmosis", or "Thotmes", are two versions of the same name - Anglicised versions of the Hellenic version in Manetho.
A compromise, used by many Egyptologists, is "Thutmose"
The more accurate Egyptian would read "Djehutymose" - meaning "male child of Djehuty" ' 'Djehuty' being Thoth, a prominant deity in temple and funerary inscriptions at the time.
The 'prince Thutmosis' who supposedly fled was supposed to be the eldest son of Amenhotep III - actually, Amenhotep III HAD such a son - who was high priest of Ptah at Memphis, where records of him remain.
His mummy may well be 'unknown boy' of the three corpses found in a side chamber of KV 35, judging by DNA  evidence from the scans made in 2010. At least the 'elder lady' found next to him was definately Thutmose's mother, the Great Royal Wife Tiye.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 24, 2017, 06:57:02 PM
Happy to assume the accepted chronology for the purpose of discussion. How about a date of some time after the battle of Kadesh, for the exodus? Early 12th century BC? Maybe it was some time between the decline of the Egyptian and Hittite empires and the renewed Egyptian attack on Judah and Israel at the time of Rehoboam.


-
Fairy nuff;
The last decade of Ramesses II were clouded with in fighting at court. Yet Merenptah, his successor, mentioned stamping out Israel in one of his punitive campaigns to fly the flag in Syria-Palestine, and reassert the traditional Egyptian domination of the area, which had shown signs of slippage in the last years of his father's rule.
And again, there is no evidence for a massive slave population in the Eastern Delta in the Nineteenth -or any other - dynasty.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 24, 2017, 07:24:31 PM
If anyone's interested in an in-depth examination of the latest research regarding the 'mummy cache' tombs and their contents, here's an academic paper to fall asleep reading; http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22909/full The 'cache' tombs were basically dumps where royal mummies stripped of their finery  by an impoverished Egyptian state from c11-950 BC, were placed - out of sight, out of mind. Some of the greatest names of the New Kingdom ended up there - Thutmose III,, AmenhotepIII, Ramesses II, Merenptah, Ramesses III - a bit like finding William the conqueror, Robert Bruce, Henry VIII, and umpteen other 'greats' in simple shrouds lumped gtogether.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on February 24, 2017, 07:55:41 PM
Happy to assume the accepted chronology for the purpose of discussion. How about a date of some time after the battle of Kadesh, for the exodus? Early 12th century BC? Maybe it was some time between the decline of the Egyptian and Hittite empires and the renewed Egyptian attack on Judah and Israel at the time of Rehoboam.

Perhaps, Spud, you'd be better listening to Jim, who is an expert with practical experience in the field, and listen less to the idiots from AiG (and I did read the pitiful link you posted earlier).
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on February 26, 2017, 01:39:31 PM
Fair enough, but one can't help thinking that you actually don't want there to be any archaeological evidence for the Exodus.
It's not a case of wanting or not wanting. The evidence simply isn't there.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 28, 2017, 05:21:45 PM
I'll post this here, as it has stuff related to Qantir/Piramesse/'Ramses'. There's also stuff about further investigations on KV 62 (Tutankhamun) and archaic prostrate stones (keep your legs crossed, guys). Osirisnet is one of the best sites around. http://www.osirisnet.net/news/n_02_17.htm?fr
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 01, 2017, 05:06:18 AM
Anchorman, what's your opinion of the word 'Israel' on the Merneptah Stele? Is that the correct translation of the word (I think it requires the substitution of an 'l' in place of what is actually an 'r' at the end)?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 01, 2017, 09:20:37 AM
Anchorman, what's your opinion of the word 'Israel' on the Merneptah Stele? Is that the correct translation of the word (I think it requires the substitution of an 'l' in place of what is actually an 'r' at the end)?
-
 

Hi, Spud;
The word on the Merenptah stela (which is really only concerned with his battles in year 5 in Lybia and a minor tribute expedition in Palestine,mentions Israel in passing.
If you see the inscription, it's a bit hard to read - though a little water sprinkled on it brings it up quite well.
There were no vowels as we understand them in Egyptian hieroglyphs,,. and transliterating them onto a message is a bit difficult. I'll use the number 3 in the word, but it should be reversed as indicator of a symbol.
Thus 'Israel' reads 's3l'.
There is no doubt as to the meaning of the word, though, as it comes as part of a list of territories in what is now Palestine and southern Syria which were reminded of Egyptian hegemony with force!
What is also incontrovertible, though, is that the 'Israel' mentioned could only have occupied a small portion of the Biblical state - as other territories in the same area are also mentioned.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 01, 2017, 09:38:59 AM
As an addendum, you can read the full text of what's left of the inscription here. I note that the translator must have been Jewish, since he uses the word 'Shalom' which is obviously niether Egyptian or English. I'd have substited 'quiet peace' but Shalom does quite well instead. Incidentally, the whole web site of Tour Egypt is a pretty comprehensive, if basic, guide to the archaeology of the country, and worth a look if you have time. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/merenphatvictorystele.htm
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 01, 2017, 08:28:47 PM
What is also incontrovertible, though, is that the 'Israel' mentioned could only have occupied a small portion of the Biblical state - as other territories in the same area are also mentioned.

Hi Anchorman,
It takes me quite a while to get my head around this stuff, but it's good to check the Biblical record against the Egyptian writings. On the Merneptah Stele, Israel is recognized as a people by the Egyptian scribe.
Re: the other territories mentioned alongside Israel; there isn't any record in the Old Testament of this Egyptian conquest around the time of Joshua/Judges, which is the time suggested if the Egyptian word "Israel" refers to an unsettled tribe in the hill country of Palestine. After the Exodus, Egypt doesn't come on the scene again in the Old Testament until the reign of Solomon, who married Pharaoh's daughter. So we could be looking at a 3 century shift in the chronology, to the time of the attack by Shishak.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 01, 2017, 08:48:26 PM
 There's a good reason why there's no mention of a conquest of Israel, Spud. The area was already under Egyptian hegemony - and had been since the early eighteenth dynasty. Various Egyptian kings had boasted of victories in the area since that time, but these were little more than expeditions flying the flag because other powers in the area - Naharin, Mitanni and Hatti - had been flexing their muscles and trying to win the area for themselves. Sometimes, as in the case of Mitanni or Hatti, they managed to skim off a few towns if the Egyptian throne was looking elsewhere, but from about the time of Thutmose i until Ramesses IV, Palestine was under strict Egyptian control. Even after that time, Egypt exercised great influence up until, and beyond, the time of Sheshonq I of dyn XXII The Merenptah stela simply records a punitive tour in year 5, the purpose of which seems to have been to assert the Egyptian side of the bargain with the Hittites which parcelled up the area two decades earlier. Incidentally, did you know that the first Armageddon - Battle of Megiddo - took place in the reign of Thutmose III. and two others - under Amenhotep III and Seti I - are recorded, but the latter were mere skirmishes which Egypt convincingly won?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 01, 2017, 08:54:40 PM
Here's an overview of the situation in New Kingdom Middle and near Est, from University College, London http://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/foreignrelations/asiank.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 01, 2017, 10:47:09 PM
      If anyone's interested in a link to the nineteenth dynasty, with some brilliant pics thrown in, this link http://www.crystalinks.com/Ramesses_II.html will give a good, rounded view of the time of Ramesses II. Merenptah at al. Alternatively, probably the best up-to-date book on the subject is Aiden Dodson's "Poisoned Legacy" (AUC) Incidentally, Dodson is one of the best minds working in Egyptology today, and his books on the Amarna period and the third intermediate period are masterpieces of scholarship.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 03, 2017, 08:41:05 AM
Incidentally, did you know that the first Armageddon - Battle of Megiddo - took place in the reign of Thutmose III.
Just covered this, while reading about Thutmose I, II and III.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 03, 2017, 09:14:52 AM
Just covered this, while reading about Thutmose I, II and III.


-
If you carry on a wee bit further - into the rule of Amenhotep II, Thutmose IV and Amenhotep III, you'll see the rise of Atenism, as a religio-political idea.....rather than some monotheistic revelation by Akhenaten.
That bursts a few theories in certain intransigent Christian eyes as to Akhenaten being a proto-monotheist.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 03, 2017, 09:30:53 AM

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If you carry on a wee bit further - into the rule of Amenhotep II, Thutmose IV and Amenhotep III, you'll see the rise of Atenism, as a religio-political idea.....rather than some monotheistic revelation by Akhenaten.
That bursts a few theories in certain intransigent Christian eyes as to Akhenaten being a proto-monotheist.

Oh! Well I've trawled through Thutmose III's successors up to Seti I paying more attention to military campaigns, for which there doesn't seem to be much evidence after Thut III's successor, Amenhotep II, who reigned from 1427-1401. (That's interesting because it coincides with the traditional date of the Exodus). Military campaigns then start again with Seti I, and his successors Ramesses II and Merneptah.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 03, 2017, 09:41:36 AM
Hang on; There might not have been full scale wars, but there's evidence of Thutmose IV's activities in Palestine and at least two minor campaigns under Amenhotep III - possibly one under Amenhotep IV before he became Akhenaten. Whoever led Neferneferuaten and Tutankhamun's armies certainly left their mark in Syria at some stage, suggesting a minor tour to reassert Egyptian dominance, and Horemheb certainly put his foot down in Palestine. For in-depth analysis of the period, I'd suggest the two books "Amarna Sunrise" and "Anarna Sunset" which cover the times from Amenhotep II-Seti I. Both are by Aiden Dodson, and reflect the very latest finds in the field (up to and including the latest tomb in the Valley, KV 63, and its' significance in Amarna studies.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 03, 2017, 10:43:08 AM
  You might like to look at this site: http://theancientneareast.com/tutankhamuns-war/ Spud, if you are interested in the convoluted history of tactics and skirmishes at the time of Akhenaten, Tutankhamun and Horemheb. There's no record of who led the Egyptian army in lieu of the youth of the king - I'd plump for Horemheb, especially given his "iry-pt" designation - a title usually accorded to the designated heir to the Egyptian throne.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 05, 2017, 08:25:35 AM
Thanks, I have read the link, which was helpful.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 05, 2017, 09:25:17 AM
Thanks, I have read the link, which was helpful.

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The Bible doesn't mention Egyptian domination of the area, or the superpower grab of that time for one very good reason:
It was not WRITTEN then - or anywhere near it!
By the time of Jeremiah, when many Bible scholars believe the Pentateuch was rewritten, the 15-12th century situation was virtually ancient history - and unless the writers had access to the records of the countries involved, they would have had no knowledge of the situation.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 05, 2017, 03:12:35 PM
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The Bible doesn't mention Egyptian domination of the area, or the superpower grab of that time for one very good reason:
It was not WRITTEN then - or anywhere near it!
By the time of Jeremiah, when many Bible scholars believe the Pentateuch was rewritten, the 15-12th century situation was virtually ancient history - and unless the writers had access to the records of the countries involved, they would have had no knowledge of the situation.
A couple of verses that may be relevant to that are Genesis 22:14, where the name Abraham gave to the place at which he was told to sacrifice Isaac, was still used "to this day" (at the time of writing). Also Genesis 47:26, where the law concerning 20% of produce from the land in Egypt was Pharaoh's according to a law set up during the famine in Joseph's time. According to the narrator, this law still applied at the time of writing.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 05, 2017, 04:14:17 PM
Since technically, all the produce of the land of Egypt (except land specifically granted to major temple complexes such as Karnak, Memphis, Heliopolis and Abydos) was the property of the state - though parcelled out to the major families in the 'nomes', I don't see your point. As for the records of battles, etc, they were there for all to see - being very visual. Problem was, though, that at any given time, less than one percent of the population could read hieroglyphs (though a few more could read the more cursive 'hieratic' script which was used on some official and sacredotal documents.)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 05, 2017, 04:26:50 PM
 Here's a useful guide to land ownership in the New Kingdom - from approx 1800-1000 BC. You'll note that by the Third Intermediate and late periods (the latter being the time when I believe the Pentateuch was rewritten) the situation was drastically changed, with weakened central power, and the theoretical power of the king much diluted - hence the reference to land 'owned by the king' in Genesis. Had the book actually been written before the end of the New Kingdom, the author would have known that all land belonged to the king - and had that author been Moses, a high ranking official, he would have been intimately concerned with the king's use of the land. http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/economy/land.htm
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 13, 2017, 05:28:03 PM
Spud; I stated that centralised royal authority had been diluted by the LATE PERIOD - that's from about 606 onward. In the New Kingdom - from around 1800-1000 BC, royal authority - and therefore royal land ownership - was absolute.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 13, 2017, 09:53:56 PM
Spud; I stated that centralised royal authority had been diluted by the LATE PERIOD - that's from about 606 onward. In the New Kingdom - from around 1800-1000 BC, royal authority - and therefore royal land ownership - was absolute.

Okay, so if Genesis was re-written in Jeremiah's day, ie. 626-587 BC, we wouldn't expect it to say what it says in 47:26... right?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 13, 2017, 10:13:38 PM
The thing is, Spud, were the Pentateuch passed down to us unaltered in any way from the twelfth century BC, the glaring omission of certain foriegn powers and the Egyptian hegemony of what was then Canaan should strike warning bells - along with the complete lack of extra-Scriptural evidencefor a Joseph-Moses time in Egypt as described in the Pentateuch.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 13, 2017, 11:09:54 PM
The thing is, Spud, were the Pentateuch passed down to us unaltered in any way from the twelfth century BC, the glaring omission of certain foreign powers and the Egyptian hegemony of what was then Canaan should strike warning bells - along with the complete lack of extra-Scriptural evidence for a Joseph-Moses time in Egypt as described in the Pentateuch.

Unless those empires have been incorrectly dated? I had a more thorough read of the answers-in-Genesis article from #106, having got my head around the various dynasties a bit more. It describes evidence suggesting that the New Kingdom was around the time of Solomon and Rehoboam. And that the Joseph/Moses events occurred before the Hyksos dynasties.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 14, 2017, 09:27:34 AM
Unless those empires have been incorrectly dated? I had a more thorough read of the answers-in-Genesis article from #106, having got my head around the various dynasties a bit more. It describes evidence suggesting that the New Kingdom was around the time of Solomon and Rehoboam. And that the Joseph/Moses events occurred before the Hyksos dynasties.

-
There is no evidence to back up Rohl's 'new Chronology', Spud - and whole bucketloads against it.
That the New Kingdom existed when it did is not in dispute by any serious archaeologist, confirmed as it is by overwhelming evidence.
Besides, even Rohl admits now that the datable material sent to two universities for 'blind' testing are dated to when the Egyptologists suggested they were - and some of that material was perfectly preserved wheat grain from Tutankhamun's tomb.
Those tests are done by reputable methodology.
The second tests are the DNA from the royal mummies from DB320 and KV35, .
In an attempt to verify a family tree for various royals, DNA was extracted and analysed - and at the same time c14 and radioflourine tests were conducted.
Not only was a tentative genealogy revealed stretching back more than five centuries, but the dates from the tests were in accord with the reburial of the remains under the priest-king Pinodjem I of the Theban branch of dyn XXI.
That's before I even start on inscriptions from Hatti, Assyria, etc - and the thousands of surviving inscriptions from Egypt itself naming kings and events during dated iegns of Egyptian monarchs.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 14, 2017, 07:08:31 PM
 Here's that link to the latest dating of Egypt, Spud : - http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100617/full/news.2010.304.html - My only slight quibble is that I'd lump dyn XVII - or part of it at least - in with the New Kingdom, as it encompassed the development of the 'High Theban' state . Two other places to research are; 1: the excellent Theban Royal Mummy Project.: http://anubis4_2000.tripod.com/mummypages1/intro.htm And a book - "The complete Royal families of Ancient Egypt" (Thames&Hudson) which gives a complex genealogy of all the known kings, their wives and children, from the very first kings to the Ptolemaic period. It's a must for any serious research.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 16, 2017, 10:31:23 AM
 Another problem I have with the writers of the Pentateuch - and another argument for its' editing in the 6th century BC, is the whole slavery thing. The Exodus account suggests a Hebrew slave population. Let's ignore the number of that population for now. Slavery in New Kingdom Egypt was nothing like the Babylonian, Persian or later Greco-Roman model. The editors of the Pentateuch seem to have thought they were the same - and speak of the Hebrew slave community. That was definitely never an Egyptian concept in the New Kingdom (or Third Intermediate period). Slaves - if that's the word you want to use, but it's a limited word - were not kept in communities, but served in estates, or temples, and were only brought together en mass for a specific building project - quarrying or carrying. Such state slaves were usually prisoners captured as a result of campaigns, rather than born and bred to slavery. Here's an article re: slavery in Egypt in general. http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/slavery.htm
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 16, 2017, 01:33:15 PM
Quote
and another argument for its' editing in the 6th century BC

Just found a couple more verses that mention "to this day":
Joshua 15:63
Now as for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the sons of Judah could not drive them out; so the Jebusites live with the sons of Judah at Jerusalem until this day.
1 Kings 9:21
Solomon conscripted the descendants of all these peoples remaining in the land--whom the Israelites could not exterminate --to serve as slave labor, as it is to this day.
These books were edited post-Solomon. Since the style seems the same as in Genesis 47:26 and 22:14, I agree that the Pentateuch was edited in the time of the Kings of Israel. That doesn't mean, though, that the details were changed.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 16, 2017, 01:37:47 PM
Just found a couple more verses that mention "to this day":
Joshua 15:63
Now as for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the sons of Judah could not drive them out; so the Jebusites live with the sons of Judah at Jerusalem until this day.
1 Kings 9:21
Solomon conscripted the descendants of all these peoples remaining in the land--whom the Israelites could not exterminate --to serve as slave labor, as it is to this day.
These books were edited post-Solomon. Since the style seems the same as in Genesis 47:26 and 22:14, I agree that the Pentateuch was edited in the time of the Kings of Israel. That doesn't mean, though, that the details were changed.


-
But it argues that those who edited it had an agenda - and rewrote history to suit that agenda.
Again, there is simply no evidence from archaeology to back up a slave community of any description in the Delta.
None.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 16, 2017, 01:45:50 PM

-
But it argues that those who edited it had an agenda - and rewrote history to suit that agenda.
Again, there is simply no evidence from archaeology to back up a slave community of any description in the Delta.
None.
Which agenda? Please expand...
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 16, 2017, 01:53:52 PM
They were trying to unite a populous divided by conquest, oppression and exile. Their monuments had been destroyed, the state dissasembled. They took the core of the Pentateuch  - and I velieve there WAS acore - and expanded it, putting 'modern' (well, modern for the 6th century BC) geo-political, cultural and social norms on a story which had taken place six or eight centuries earlier. Again, this does not devalue the Pentateuch as theology, but makes it unreliable as history. Since there exists not a shred of extrascriptural evidence to bacck it up, we cannot take the Pentateuch as historically accurate.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 16, 2017, 03:30:22 PM
They were trying to unite a populous divided by conquest, oppression and exile. Their monuments had been destroyed, the state dissasembled. They took the core of the Pentateuch  - and I velieve there WAS acore - and expanded it, putting 'modern' (well, modern for the 6th century BC) geo-political, cultural and social norms on a story which had taken place six or eight centuries earlier. Again, this does not devalue the Pentateuch as theology, but makes it unreliable as history. Since there exists not a shred of extrascriptural evidence to bacck it up, we cannot take the Pentateuch as historically accurate.
Along with the new testament miracles, if we follow your logic here.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 16, 2017, 04:30:19 PM
Eh? How can a document taken in isolation, with no archaeology, historical or literal corroberation to back it up, be regarded as history? As far as I'm aware, the synoptic back each other up. There are also a few extrascriptural documents (Tacitus, Suetonius, etc) which also lend support, and a few tantalising archaeological bits and pieces as well. But how could any archaeology back up any miracle claims? Even if someone came up with a dozen ten gallon amphorae with datable high quality wine from Cana, that wouldn't be proof of a miracle - no archaeology would. What has that to do with proving the historicity of the Exodus through archaeology?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 17, 2017, 05:44:00 PM
The pentateuch is five books, remember. Not one in isolation. There is also a slight problem with saying that the Exodus didn't happen as reported: it is the foundation for the ten commandments, which were to be kept because God had brought them out of Egypt:
1Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3"You shall have no other gods before Me.…
We also have four separate instances where the number of Israelite men is given is 600,000.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 17, 2017, 05:53:40 PM
Quote
What has that to do with proving the historicity of the Exodus through archaeology?
I just meant that the Exodus was brought about by miraculous means.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: floo on March 17, 2017, 06:31:45 PM
I just meant that the Exodus was brought about by miraculous means.

And pigs might fly! ::)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 17, 2017, 06:46:14 PM
I just meant that the Exodus was brought about by miraculous means.
_ Are you saying that the numbers, people, locations and events in Exodus are literally and historically true - despite not one iota of evidence to confirm it as written/edited down?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: DaveM on March 18, 2017, 02:27:33 PM
Okay, so if Genesis was re-written in Jeremiah's day, ie. 626-587 BC, we wouldn't expect it to say what it says in 47:26... right?
Hi Spud, You might find the following comments on the authorship of the Pentateuch interesting.  Taken from the ESV Study Bible resources. They boast a pretty impressive list of well qualified scholars as being contributors to the ESV translation.  In particular note the comment in the final paragraph that, 'it should be seen as originating in Moses’ time but undergoing some slight revision in later eras so later readers could understand its message and apply it to their own situations.'

For more than 2,000 years, readers of the Pentateuch assumed that Moses was its author (cf. Mark 7:10). This was a natural conclusion to draw from its contents, for most of the laws are said to have been given to Moses by God (e.g., Lev. 1:1), and indeed some passages are explicitly said to have been written down by Moses (see Deut. 31:9, 24). The account of his death could have been recorded by someone else, though some held it was a prophetic account by Moses himself (Deuteronomy 34).

But in the late eighteenth century, critical scholars began challenging the assumption of Mosaic authorship. They argued that several authors were responsible for writing the Pentateuch. These authors supposedly wrote many centuries after Moses, and were separated from each other in time and location. Complicated theories were developed to explain how the Pentateuch grew as different authors’ accounts were spliced and adjusted by a series of editors. According to these critical scholars, it was likely that the Pentateuch reached its final form in the fifth century b.c., nearly a millennium after Moses.

In the late twentieth century this type of critical theory was strongly attacked, not just by conservative scholars but also by those brought up on such theories. They argue that the theories are too complicated, self-contradictory, and ultimately unprovable. It is much more rewarding and less speculative to focus interpretative effort on the final form of the text. So there is a strong move to abandon the compositional theories of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries for simpler hypotheses. Thus some critical scholars would see the Pentateuch being an essentially fifth-century b.c. creation. Others suggest earlier dates. But none of these suggestions can really be proven.

The Pentateuch does undoubtedly claim to be divine in origin, mediated through Moses. Thus Moses should be looked to as the original human author. Indeed, as stated above, the Pentateuch looks like a life of Moses, with an introduction. But this need not mean that he wrote every word of the present Pentateuch. It seems likely that the spelling and the grammar of the Pentateuch were revised to keep it intelligible for later readers. Also, a number of features in the text look like clarifications for a later age. But this is quite different from supposing that the Pentateuch was essentially composed in a later age. Rather, it should be seen as originating in Moses’ time but undergoing some slight revision in later eras so later readers could understand its message and apply it to their own situations.   
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 18, 2017, 02:40:38 PM
Again, dAveM, literary criticism is fine - as far as it goes. But an even such as captivity of half a million people and their subsequent departure from a territory leave evidence. We have none. Doesn't that mitigate against a Mosaic Pentateuch, and support  an edited version?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: DaveM on March 18, 2017, 03:41:49 PM
Again, dAveM, literary criticism is fine - as far as it goes. But an even such as captivity of half a million people and their subsequent departure from a territory leave evidence. We have none. Doesn't that mitigate against a Mosaic Pentateuch, and support  an edited version?
Hi AM.

Not that it proves anything, but it is worth remembering that the length of time when there was such a large population in Egypt may well have been a very short period. When I was at school in the 1950's the population of Africa was estimated at 180 million, although today revised estimates place the figure at more likely close to 250 million.  Today, some 60 years later Africa's population is estimated at 1.2 billion, an average growth rate of around 2.65% or a doubling every 27 years.  On the basis of these sorts of numbers, at the time of Moses' birth the number of men was possibly as low as 75 000 while when he fled from Egypt at the age of 40 it could have been no more that around 210 000.  Only during the second 40 year period of Moses life would it have moved above this figure towards the 600 000 mark.

But the real purpose of my previous post was simply to highlight that there is no unanimity amongst Biblical scholars on this issue with a substantial number favouring the Pentateuch to have been substantially Mosaic authorship with some subsequent fairly minor editing. 
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 18, 2017, 04:11:04 PM
Again, dAveM, literary criticism is fine - as far as it goes. But an even such as captivity of half a million people and their subsequent departure from a territory leave evidence. We have none. Doesn't that mitigate against a Mosaic Pentateuch, and support  an edited version?
What you mean by an 'edited version' - a gross exaggeration of the original material - seems to be very different to what Dave and I mean - small changes centuries later but keeping the original detail. The number 600,000 seems to have been in the original documents, even if you see no archaeological evidence for it.

Thanks for the info, Dave.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 18, 2017, 04:27:13 PM
Hi AM.

Not that it proves anything, but it is worth remembering that the length of time when there was such a large population in Egypt may well have been a very short period. When I was at school in the 1950's the population of Africa was estimated at 180 million, although today revised estimates place the figure at more likely close to 250 million.  Today, some 60 years later Africa's population is estimated at 1.2 billion, an average growth rate of around 2.65% or a doubling every 27 years.  On the basis of these sorts of numbers, at the time of Moses' birth the number of men was possibly as low as 75 000 while when he fled from Egypt at the age of 40 it could have been no more that around 210 000.  Only during the second 40 year period of Moses life would it have moved above this figure towards the 600 000 mark.

But the real purpose of my previous post was simply to highlight that there is no unanimity amongst Biblical scholars on this issue with a substantial number favouring the Pentateuch to have been substantially Mosaic authorship with some subsequent fairly minor editing. 



Even were a large population present for a short time (five years, for example) substantial traces of their activity would exist - witness the temporary Roman camps set up by Agricola in his Caledonian campaign - each camp occupied for a few months at best, but all easily excavated.
Again, no such evidence for a large temporary population in Egypt exists.
Sorry, Dave.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 18, 2017, 04:28:58 PM
What you mean by an 'edited version' - a gross exaggeration of the original material - seems to be very different to what Dave and I mean - small changes centuries later but keeping the original detail. The number 600,000 seems to have been in the original documents, even if you see no archaeological evidence for it. Thanks for the info, Dave.
- Spud: If there are no remains for a population of 600,00 - middens, cemetaries, breweries, townships, etc - then there was no such population. You might be able to lose a village of a few hundred inhabitants - or a town with a few thousands; but a population of over half a million would be impossible to lose - the traces would be far too obvious. There are no such traces in the Qantir region - absolutely none.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: DaveM on March 18, 2017, 06:44:05 PM

Even were a large population present for a short time (five years, for example) substantial traces of their activity would exist - witness the temporary Roman camps set up by Agricola in his Caledonian campaign - each camp occupied for a few months at best, but all easily excavated.
Again, no such evidence for a large temporary population in Egypt exists.
Sorry, Dave.
The first paragraph of my post commenced with the phrase, 'Not that it proves anything', while the second paragraph commenced with the phrase, 'But the real purpose of my previous post'.  So I am a bit disappointed that you have only responded to the first paragraph and not seen fit to give any response to the main thrust of my posts, which is that a substantial number of scholars do not go along with your views (although clearly many others do).  Do you considers the contributors to the ESV translation as being no more than lightweight theologians of no real consequence?  Do we need to place them in the category of simple wooden biblical literalists?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 18, 2017, 07:17:00 PM
The first paragraph of my post commenced with the phrase, 'Not that it proves anything', while the second paragraph commenced with the phrase, 'But the real purpose of my previous post'.  So I am a bit disappointed that you have only responded to the first paragraph and not seen fit to give any response to the main thrust of my posts, which is that a substantial number of scholars do not go along with your views (although clearly many others do).  Do you considers the contributors to the ESV translation as being no more than lightweight theologians of no real consequence?  Do we need to place them in the category of simple wooden biblical literalists?

Just out of interest, Dave, are the scholars you refer to archaeologists or theologians: what Jim seems to be saying is that there is no supporting archaeology for the OT details of the Exodus claim, which there would be were it true - therefore it simply didn't happen as per the story in the OT.

In this case archaeology trumps theology.

   
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 18, 2017, 07:28:41 PM
The number 600,000 seems to have been in the original documents, even if you see no archaeological evidence for it.

Prepare yourself for a shock, Spud - in the absence of supporting archaeology the 600,000 is plain wrong.

Perhaps now would be a good time to stop taking what the Bible says literally when what it says patently isn't true.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 18, 2017, 07:31:45 PM
Dave, my speciality is Egyptology (actually, post Amarna and Third Intermediate Period, if you're interested) There are no qualified experts in the field who  can produce any evidence to contradict theconventional view of archaeology - that the Exodus did not occur precisely as laid down in Scripture. I can't change that. I know many so-called 'Bible archaeologists' and spurious websites either ignore the lack of evidence, or try to twist what they think exists to fit some YEC model that makes them comfortable - but this is dishonest and unworthy of either the Christian or the historian. Of course I'd love to have every jot and tittle of Exodus proved to be accurate to the letter - but it simply is not, and no amount of theological hoops jumped through with a Bible in hand will make it accurate. That's why, with many others, I'm perfectly comfortable with a radical editting of the Pentateuch in the sixth or late fifth centuries - where the actual history of Egypt of the fourteenth to tenth centuries would be little more than speculation unless the writers were literate in Hieroglyphs or Hieratic, which seems implausible, since even the vast majority of Egyptians themselves were illiterate.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 19, 2017, 07:02:19 AM
Came across this, which is worth a listen (apart from the ads).

http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/the-historical-reliability-of-the-bible-francesca-stavrakopoulou/

Re. Exodus - she says Moses didn't exist.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Walter on March 19, 2017, 08:04:17 AM
Came across this, which is worth a listen (apart from the ads).

http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/the-historical-reliability-of-the-bible-francesca-stavrakopoulou/

Re. Exodus - she says Moses didn't exist.
thanks Gordon , gives some perspective to reality , however the diehards will never accept it ,sadly.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 19, 2017, 09:24:54 AM
Actually, I don't think we can say that Moses didn't exist. All we can say is that there is no evidence for events happening as laid down in Exodus as we have it today.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Walter on March 19, 2017, 09:51:01 AM
Actually, I don't think we can say that Moses didn't exist. All we can say is that there is no evidence for events happening as laid down in Exodus as we have it today.
you've just proved my point.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: DaveM on March 19, 2017, 10:52:53 AM
Just out of interest, Dave, are the scholars you refer to archaeologists or theologians: what Jim seems to be saying is that there is no supporting archaeology for the OT details of the Exodus claim, which there would be were it true - therefore it simply didn't happen as per the story in the OT.

In this case archaeology trumps theology.

 
Morning Gordon,

The ESV Bible is widely recognised as one of the more accurate translations available today.  The commentary notes provided in the ESV Study Bible could be said to represent a broad conservative evangelical approach to biblical exegesis.  The contributors are primarily theologians and pretty well without exception have PhD’s in their respective fields of expertise from recognised and well respected universities and theological institutions.  The majority of these are in the UK and include the Universities of Cambridge, Oxford, London, Liverpool, Bristol, Sheffield, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Queens in Belfast.  In the USA are the Fuller and Westminster Theological Seminaries, and Universities such as Harvard, California, Michigan, Northwest and Michigan.  There are also a handful from other countries including one contributor who qualified at the University of Stellenbosch (not that far from where I live) and which would be classified as teaching an essentially liberal approach to theology.

Of interest is that the ESV Study Bible also includes an article on the arguments put forward by the proponents of both an early date and a late date for the Exodus.  The ESV does not take a firm position on either.  In fact in its chronological charts of Old Testament dates it always offers two options, one based on an early date and the other on a later date.  What is of real interest is that the proponents of each date include arguments based on archaeological data and findings to support their position.  All of which indicates that there are those archaeologists who do believe that there is evidence for the Exodus and that, as in so many disciplines, the available evidence is not as clear cut as we would wish and is open to interpretation. 

Enjoy your day.  310C here today and heading for 35 tomorrow.  So summer at the southern tip of Africa is not done yet!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 19, 2017, 11:18:42 AM
All of which indicates that there are those archaeologists who do believe that there is evidence for the Exodus and that, as in so many disciplines, the available evidence is not as clear cut as we would wish and is open to interpretation. 

If there is an absence of archaeological evidence of a large population who are these archaeologists who claim evidence for the Exodus story since (see my earlier link) it seems there is no historical evidence for Moses: what is this archaeological evidence and are those citing it credible in terms of being professional archaeologists (as opposed to being theologians)?

It seems to me that if there is no archaeological evidence then whatever the theologians claim in supporting the OT Exodus story must surely be wrong.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on March 19, 2017, 12:45:26 PM
Actually, I don't think we can say that Moses didn't exist. All we can say is that there is no evidence for events happening as laid down in Exodus as we have it today.

I think we need to define what we mean by "Moses". If we mean "man who led some slaves to escape from Egypt"  such people probably did exist. If we mean "man who led the ancestors of modern Jews to escape from Egypt" that is far more contentious because this person probably did not exist given that the ancestors of modern Jews were most likely not slaves in Egypt.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: DaveM on March 19, 2017, 01:55:38 PM
If there is an absence of archaeological evidence of a large population who are these archaeologists who claim evidence for the Exodus story since (see my earlier link) it seems there is no historical evidence for Moses: what is this archaeological evidence and are those citing it credible in terms of being professional archaeologists (as opposed to being theologians)?

It seems to me that if there is no archaeological evidence then whatever the theologians claim in supporting the OT Exodus story must surely be wrong.
I find you argument to be somewhat naïve. You seem to imply that it is possible to be a recognised theological scholar, whose speciality is the Old Testament, without have a good understanding and working knowledge of the archaeological data pertaining to the period covered by your expertise.  But that is a contradiction in terms.  All OT scholars know that it is essential to keep up to date with the findings of those whose speciality is archaeology and to be able to understand and evaluate the significance of these. 

So while I am not able to personally quote the actual archaeological sources, I can state with confidence that when the scholars responsible for the commentaries and articles in the ESV Bible state that arguments based on archaeological data and findings are included by proponents of both an early and a late date for the Exodus to support their position, then these scholars would certainly have access to these findings and possess the ability to evaluate them. Furthermore they would be able to distinguish between the recognised archaeologist and the many charlatans who keep cropping up.   
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 19, 2017, 02:12:54 PM
I find you argument to be somewhat naïve. You seem to imply that it is possible to be a recognised theological scholar, whose speciality is the Old Testament, without have a good understanding and working knowledge of the archaeological data pertaining to the period covered by your expertise.  But that is a contradiction in terms.  All OT scholars know that it is essential to keep up to date with the findings of those whose speciality is archaeology and to be able to understand and evaluate the significance of these. 

So while I am not able to personally quote the actual archaeological sources, I can state with confidence that when the scholars responsible for the commentaries and articles in the ESV Bible state that arguments based on archaeological data and findings are included by proponents of both an early and a late date for the Exodus to support their position, then these scholars would certainly have access to these findings and possess the ability to evaluate them. Furthermore they would be able to distinguish between the recognised archaeologist and the many charlatans who keep cropping up.   

Sorry. This doesn't wash. You will need to present something more solid than your belief in people. Can you link to what you think is the valid archeological evidence?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 19, 2017, 02:21:54 PM
 DaveM: Sorry, but I DO keep up with the latest research and scholarship on the period roughly covered by the Exodus, assuming it took place between c 1800-1000 BC. My speciality is in the ate Ramesside period and third intermediate period of Egypt - when Pi-Ramesse ('Ramses') was abandoned and Tanis became the northern capital. I wish I'd had more experience in the field, but the limited experience I have had, plus the articles published by authors such as Redford, Ikram, El  Mahdy, Dodson, Kemp, Rijks, the EES,, the MMA,not to mention the recent work from Poland, Austria and Russia, back up the conventional view of the convoluted history of Northern (lower) Egypt at this time. As yet, Egyptologists have found no evidence for a large slave population - Semitic or otherwise - near Piramesse. Unless the Hebrew slaves walked thirty miles each day before they started work on 'Ramses' - they did not exist as the Exodus claims they did.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Walter on March 19, 2017, 03:09:57 PM
DaveM

Soppy thinking old chap .
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 19, 2017, 04:25:18 PM
I find you argument to be somewhat naïve. You seem to imply that it is possible to be a recognised theological scholar, whose speciality is the Old Testament, without have a good understanding and working knowledge of the archaeological data pertaining to the period covered by your expertise.  But that is a contradiction in terms.  All OT scholars know that it is essential to keep up to date with the findings of those whose speciality is archaeology and to be able to understand and evaluate the significance of these. 

So while I am not able to personally quote the actual archaeological sources, I can state with confidence that when the scholars responsible for the commentaries and articles in the ESV Bible state that arguments based on archaeological data and findings are included by proponents of both an early and a late date for the Exodus to support their position, then these scholars would certainly have access to these findings and possess the ability to evaluate them. Furthermore they would be able to distinguish between the recognised archaeologist and the many charlatans who keep cropping up.   

Nope: not even close, your are indulging in special pleading that your preferred theologians understand the archaeology: or more accurately the absence of archaeology. The only contradiction here is that if theology assumes the Exodus story is historical fact then the theology is quite simply wrong.

So, do any professional archaeologists working for secular universities (such as accredited academic departments who publish in specialist archaeological journals) claim evidence that supports what the OT says?
 
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: DaveM on March 19, 2017, 05:21:27 PM
DaveM: Sorry, but I DO keep up with the latest research and scholarship on the period roughly covered by the Exodus, assuming it took place between c 1800-1000 BC. My speciality is in the ate Ramesside period and third intermediate period of Egypt - when Pi-Ramesse ('Ramses') was abandoned and Tanis became the northern capital. I wish I'd had more experience in the field, but the limited experience I have had, plus the articles published by authors such as Redford, Ikram, El  Mahdy, Dodson, Kemp, Rijks, the EES,, the MMA,not to mention the recent work from Poland, Austria and Russia, back up the conventional view of the convoluted history of Northern (lower) Egypt at this time. As yet, Egyptologists have found no evidence for a large slave population - Semitic or otherwise - near Piramesse. Unless the Hebrew slaves walked thirty miles each day before they started work on 'Ramses' - they did not exist as the Exodus claims they did.
Hi AM.  I am not sure why but from your posts I sense that you feel that I have questioned and am being critical of your knowledge and understanding of archaeology during the period under question.  I do not understand what I said to create this impression.  If I did so then I certainly apologise.  It was certainly not my intention.  Perhaps you would be so kind as to point out to me which particular statement(s) in my posts created this impression.

My initial involvement in this thread was simply to provide some information to Spud to the effect that there are sincerely held different views on this topic, and these by deeply committed Christians.  I used the ESV commentary as an example.  There are many areas in Scripture, not central to the faith, where this type of situation applies.  I will cite one other, totally unrelated to the present topic, as an example.

The majority of Christians view the early chapters of Genesis as not being literal historical truth but rather teaching great truths, a theological treatise to coin a phrase often used by Hope.  But consider the following quote.

“It is fashionable nowadays to regard the story of Adam and Eve as ‘myth’, not history. But the Scripture itself will not allow us to do this. There may well be some figurative elements in the first three chapters of Genesis. We would not want to dogmatise, for example, about the precise nature of the seven days, the serpent, the tree of life or the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But this does not mean we doubt that Adam and Eve were real people who were created good but fell through disobedience into sin. The best argument for the historicity of Adam and Eve is not scientific (e.g. the homogeneity of the human race) but theological. The biblical Christian accepts Adam and Eve as historical not primarily because of the Old Testament story, but because of New Testament theology. In Romans 15:12-19 and 1 Cor 15:21, 22, and 45-49 the apostle draws an analogy between Adam and Christ which depends for its validity on the historicity of both. Each is presented as the head of a race – fallen humanity owing its ruin to Adam and redeemed humanity owing its salvation to Christ. Death and condemnation are traced to Adam’s disobedience, life and justification to Christ’s obedience. The whole argument is built on two historical acts – the self-willed disobedience of Adam and the self-sacrificing obedience of Christ.”

So a theological position which demands that Adam and Eve were real, historical individuals, initially sinless, who then sinned thus bringing death and condemnation into the world.  Is this the misguided rantings of a wooden biblical literalist of the six day YEC brigade?  Certainly not!

The above is a quote lifted verbatim from the writings of the late John RW Stott - a man recognised as probably the most influential conservative evangelical of his time. A man included by Time magazine in the year 2000 as amongst its list of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century.

So here is a person who believed in an historical Adam, and by implication an historical Abraham and an historical Moses. Yet I doubt he could ever be accused of being a man who compartmentalised his brain so that his faith was not impacted by logic. But his belief in the primacy of Scripture was such that he was prepared to stick his neck out and proclaim what he believed irrespective of the amount of flak that anthropologists and others might throw at him.

Indeed it was this same John RW Stott who published a little booklet entitled, ‘Balanced Christianity’ with the sub-title, ‘ A Call to Avoid Unnecessary Polarisation’ in which he quoted the famous epigram, ‘In essentials unity; in non-essentials liberty; in all things charity (love)’. This has probably always been, and still is, one of  the biggest single challenges to the Christian Church.

With that I will bow out of this thread as I feel I have said all I can usefully (or otherwise) say.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Nearly Sane on March 19, 2017, 05:27:14 PM
Sounds exactly like Stott  compartmentalized his brain and that you are using personal incredulity as your justification to think that he didn't.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 19, 2017, 05:45:48 PM
In addition, Dave, what you say here via this quote sounds like a fallacious argument from both authority and tradition. Exodus may well be a useful tale for faith purposes but those presuming that Adam, Eve and Moses are historical people are simply presuming.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 19, 2017, 06:15:40 PM
DaveM: Sorry, but I DO keep up with the latest research and scholarship on the period roughly covered by the Exodus, assuming it took place between c 1800-1000 BC. My speciality is in the ate Ramesside period and third intermediate period of Egypt - when Pi-Ramesse ('Ramses') was abandoned and Tanis became the northern capital. I wish I'd had more experience in the field, but the limited experience I have had, plus the articles published by authors such as Redford, Ikram, El  Mahdy, Dodson, Kemp, Rijks, the EES,, the MMA,not to mention the recent work from Poland, Austria and Russia, back up the conventional view of the convoluted history of Northern (lower) Egypt at this time. As yet, Egyptologists have found no evidence for a large slave population - Semitic or otherwise - near Piramesse. Unless the Hebrew slaves walked thirty miles each day before they started work on 'Ramses' - they did not exist as the Exodus claims they did.
Aren't we missing the elephant in the room, here? Mud bricks made with straw? See links in #95. Jim, you did say something about these, that there are lots of them. What exactly do you mean by no evidence for a slave population? Pots and pans with 'made by Hebrews' written on them?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 19, 2017, 06:45:50 PM
Any group of people leaves evidence of their occupation obver a period of time, Spud. I'm all too aware of the lack of mud brick remains due to the poor quality of water-looged soils (though in passing, there are quite a few remnants of mud brick dwellings at Qantir/Piramesse/Ramses, made in typical Egyptian fashion, I.E, some of purely mud-and dung, others mud, and a few with reed straw). But peop;le who lived in settlements - as a putative half million slAaves did - would leave substantial traces of occupation; Middens, remnants of bones, Brewhouses, Granaries, Cemetaries, detritus, etc. I've taken part in a midden excavation at Tanis - the Northern Capital which replaced Piramesse - and such middens contain valuable clues as to the identity and everyday life of the populus. No such massive middens are located near PirRamesse - except for those of a typical Egyptian nature, containing organic remains, pottery fragments used as bases for shopping lists, graffiti, curses, etc - nothing unusual. Cemetaries excavated by the EEF show typical peasant and low ranking burials, with bodies accompanied by 'djed; or'Bes' amulets indicating adherance to Egyptian beliefs. I wish no disrespect to DaveM: I don't dismiss an Abraham, Joseph or a Moses - but I do dispute the Exodus as it appears today, not as theology, but in any way accurate as history. So far you have provided no evidence to contradict that point of view.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 21, 2017, 11:56:58 AM
Any group of people leaves evidence of their occupation obver a period of time, Spud. I'm all too aware of the lack of mud brick remains due to the poor quality of water-looged soils (though in passing, there are quite a few remnants of mud brick dwellings at Qantir/Piramesse/Ramses, made in typical Egyptian fashion, I.E, some of purely mud-and dung, others mud, and a few with reed straw). But peop;le who lived in settlements - as a putative half million slAaves did - would leave substantial traces of occupation; Middens, remnants of bones, Brewhouses, Granaries, Cemetaries, detritus, etc. I've taken part in a midden excavation at Tanis - the Northern Capital which replaced Piramesse - and such middens contain valuable clues as to the identity and everyday life of the populus. No such massive middens are located near PirRamesse - except for those of a typical Egyptian nature, containing organic remains, pottery fragments used as bases for shopping lists, graffiti, curses, etc - nothing unusual. Cemetaries excavated by the EEF show typical peasant and low ranking burials, with bodies accompanied by 'djed; or'Bes' amulets indicating adherance to Egyptian beliefs. I wish no disrespect to DaveM: I don't dismiss an Abraham, Joseph or a Moses - but I do dispute the Exodus as it appears today, not as theology, but in any way accurate as history. So far you have provided no evidence to contradict that point of view.

Copy that, Jim. Do we know where the Hyksos went after they were driven out of Egypt? Presumably large numbers of them went somewhere, and would have left evidence.

Bruce Gore has an interesting lecture entitled, "Exodus and the 18th Dynasty" available on YouTube. He says that the king who came to the throne and did not know Joseph (Exodus 1) was likely to have been Ahmose I. Iirc this was the king who completed the process of driving out the Hyksos at the transition between the 17th and 18th dynasty. Bruce says that the Hebrews were not driven out with the Hyksos, but continued to live in Northern Egypt. But because they were associated with the Hyksos, it was feared that should the latter attack again, the Hebrews might side with them.

Another interesting idea is that Amenhotep II's second campaign in Canaan was carried out with the purpose of capturing a large number of slaves to replace the Hebrews, who had left Egypt earlier in the same year (1446 BC). The number was apparently 89,000, far more than ever before taken.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 21, 2017, 12:10:46 PM
Spud

You speak of Bruce Gore as if he were a accredited archaeologist: is he?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 21, 2017, 01:15:53 PM
Spud. The Hyksos, like the later 'Sea Peoples' were Semites in origin. When Ahmose I expelled the last of them (probably a smaller number than he claimed, in typical Egyptian boasting mode) they returned to Canaan - the pottery remains and other material from that area match up exactly with those of Tel-el-Dab'a (The Hyksos main base in Egypt). The later 'Sea Peoples' who menaced the Mediterranean coast, four centuries later, were similarly kicked out and settled on the Canaanite coast. The Egyptians called them 'Palestinu' - and the Hebrew word was 'Philistine'. They've been there a VERY long time....... As for the military campaigns - firstly, they didn't begin under Amenhotep II - but under Ahmose himself, who kept on fighting well into what is now southern Syria (as confirmed by inscription in the area) The purpose was simply to crush any potential resurgence of the Hyksos incursion, and the comparatively few POWs bear witness to this,. Later campaigns were basically looting raids for as much material as the Egyptians could gather. They particularly needed access to the vast forestland of Lebanon, so they established client states and trading ports in the area, bringing back captives - as well as more portable evidence of their victory (They cut off the hands and phalluses of their victimes - a lot more portable than corpses....)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 21, 2017, 04:28:44 PM
Very interesting Jim, thanks.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 23, 2017, 07:52:46 AM
Spud

You speak of Bruce Gore as if he were a accredited archaeologist: is he?
Missed this post yesterday. He seems to know his stuff. I've listened to several of his talks; he treats the Bible as a historical document, rather than as mythology, and tries to overlay the history of Israel on what is known about Egypt.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 23, 2017, 08:00:43 AM
Missed this post yesterday. He seems to know his stuff. I've listened to several of his talks; he treats the Bible as a historical document, rather than as mythology, and tries to overlay the history of Israel on what is known about Egypt.

That doesn't answer the question though: is he sufficiently qualified to assess the archaeology/history?

Since we've established that there is no evidence for the Exodus story as told in the NT, and there would be if it were true, do you think that guy's approach to the Bible might be flawed or biased?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: floo on March 23, 2017, 01:45:14 PM
Which parts of the Bible can be actually verified as factual? I expect some can, but not much of it. 
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 23, 2017, 05:06:52 PM
Which parts of the Bible can be actually verified as factual? I expect some can, but not much of it. 


See earlier posts in this thread.
However, quite a lot of the 'historical' OT, and some of Isaiah, Jeremiah and bits of the minor prophets which deal with external events contemporary with the writers can be verified by extra-Biblical sources.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 24, 2017, 10:05:01 PM
That doesn't answer the question though: is he sufficiently qualified to assess the archaeology/history?

Since we've established that there is no evidence for the Exodus story as told in the NT, and there would be if it were true, do you think that guy's approach to the Bible might be flawed or biased?
He very kindly replied to an email I sent him . His MA is in history. It isn't quite as simple as you make out: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He says in his talks that the modern state of Egypt, being predominantly Muslim, does not easily grant permission for research that might favour Jews and Christians. Also, as Jim himself said on page 1, there wouldn't be much evidence for slaves living near the original site of Piramesse because mud brick dwellings simply wouldn't survive. So research has to focus more on the style of the o.t. documents, and whether details in the stories such as bricks made with straw agree with what is known from archaeological studies.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Gordon on March 24, 2017, 10:31:59 PM
He very kindly replied to an email I sent him . His MA is in history. It isn't quite as simple as you make out: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I didn't say it was simple, and the absence of evidence (aside from being a cliche) can of course mean exactly that: if the claim were true there would be evidence, there is no evidence therefore....

Quote
He says in his talks that the modern state of Egypt, being predominantly Muslim, does not easily grant permission for research that might favour Jews and Christians.

That may well be what he says: thing is, is what he says reasonable? If so then presumably these constraints will be a known factor within the relevant archaeological circles - so do the archaeologists report theological interference?

Quote
Also, as Jim himself said on page 1, there wouldn't be much evidence for slaves living near the original site of Piramesse because mud brick dwellings simply wouldn't survive.

iirc Jim noted there would be other evidence if a large group of people were on the move for long periods of time, so perhaps limiting your consideration to mud-bricks is too limited. Hopefully Jim will comment further.

Quote
So research has to focus more on the style of the o.t. documents, and whether details in the stories such as bricks made with straw agree with what is known from archaeological studies.

That sounds like theology, Spud, and not archaeology.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 25, 2017, 09:46:42 AM
He very kindly replied to an email I sent him . His MA is in history. It isn't quite as simple as you make out: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He says in his talks that the modern state of Egypt, being predominantly Muslim, does not easily grant permission for research that might favour Jews and Christians. Also, as Jim himself said on page 1, there wouldn't be much evidence for slaves living near the original site of Piramesse because mud brick dwellings simply wouldn't survive. So research has to focus more on the style of the o.t. documents, and whether details in the stories such as bricks made with straw agree with what is known from archaeological studies.
- Sorry, Spud, but Bruce's reply shows his poor historical and archeological insights. Digs in the Delta since the incredible finds of Montet in the 1930's (which, by the way, are very poorly dealt with in English language media, considering the incredible intact royal tombs he found) and '40's, through the sixties and into today continue apace - As I write this, I know of the following well researched, professional digs in the central and Eastern Delta - encouraged by the Department of Antiquities of the Egyptian government: Leipzig University. Warsaw University. UCL (London) Sydney University Egypt Exploration Society/Fund. University of Edinburgh Durham University. To save my fingers, this site https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/monumental-building-complex-discovered.html#iKtFakxL1zFqrklu.97 covers a vlog from Qantir, and the homepage will keep you in touch with the latest archaeology from most parts of the world. There are a few others - I'm not sure if the Metropolitan Museum of Art is still active there at present. Yes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - that's a given. But the absence of any non-Egyptian population, slave or otherwise, in the precincts of Qantir/Piramesse is a very significant factor. Putting it simply, a population of approaching half a million souls with livestock leaves evidence no matter where it goes. There is none. Narda. zilch. The Scriptures, far from confirming the history of the period, deny it - that's why many evangelicals support their editing.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 25, 2017, 03:57:25 PM
Gordon & Anchorman,
I'm sure you are right about the Egyptian authorities allowing archaeology to be carried out. Re: your statement in #4 that, "Unfortunately, with the rise and fall of the Nile in that area, any remnants of mud brick structures are lost completely, so we can't study them." This applies to the region in which the original city of Rameses was built, is that right? How much of the Delta region in general would this statement apply to? Thanks.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 25, 2017, 04:46:16 PM
Gordon & Anchorman,
I'm sure you are right about the Egyptian authorities allowing archaeology to be carried out. Re: your statement in #4 that, "Unfortunately, with the rise and fall of the Nile in that area, any remnants of mud brick structures are lost completely, so we can't study them." This applies to the region in which the original city of Rameses was built, is that right? How much of the Delta region in general would this statement apply to? Thanks.

-
While we can't recover the majority of mud brick structures, Spud, there ARE a few tantalising remains at Qantir, Sais,  Bubastis and Tanis.
All these sites have other evidence of occupancy - foundations, foundation deposits, stonework, midden heaps, pottery shards. ostraca, cemeteries, etc - the usual finds which indicate settlement.
Even villages which have left no trace as far as mud brick dwellings are concerned leave traces such as midden heaps, cemeteries, evidence of enclosures for livestock, etc.
The nuts and bolts of everyday life.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 25, 2017, 07:09:21 PM
-
While we can't recover the majority of mud brick structures, Spud, there ARE a few tantalising remains at Qantir, Sais,  Bubastis and Tanis.
All these sites have other evidence of occupancy - foundations, foundation deposits, stonework, midden heaps, pottery shards. ostraca, cemeteries, etc - the usual finds which indicate settlement.
Even villages which have left no trace as far as mud brick dwellings are concerned leave traces such as midden heaps, cemeteries, evidence of enclosures for livestock, etc.
The nuts and bolts of everyday life.

I've looked at the four sites you mentioned, and the finds you describe sound interesting. I'm just a bit confused as to how many other places in the region have yielded ancient remains - it's a huge area which could easily support a couple of million people. There seem to be hundreds, if not thousands more villages, so could there be a lot more discoveries yet to be made? If you are saying that archaeological 'digs' have been done in all of them and yielded just scanty remains, then that would obviously seem to be an indication that the numbers claimed in the Pentateuch are not accurate.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 25, 2017, 10:11:01 PM
I've looked at the four sites you mentioned, and the finds you describe sound interesting. I'm just a bit confused as to how many other places in the region have yielded ancient remains - it's a huge area which could easily support a couple of million people. There seem to be hundreds, if not thousands more villages, so could there be a lot more discoveries yet to be made? If you are saying that archaeological 'digs' have been done in all of them and yielded just scanty remains, then that would obviously seem to be an indication that the numbers claimed in the Pentateuch are not accurate.


-
The central and Eastern Delta has yielded a very rich harvest of finds.
The Delta became strategically important from the Middle Kingdom onwards, and has been excavated by many groups in the last century and a half - and those excavations went into overdrive when Montet made the aforesaid discoveries at Tanis (which, incidentally, he thought was Piramesse because of the Rammeside statues)
With the positive identification of qantir and the digs at the various military forts on the Egypt/Sinai border established by New Kingdom kings, we have a pretty good idea of all major sites in the Eastern/Central Delta.
While of course there will be settlements as yet undiscovered, they cannot be major sites in the Pharonic times.
Again, any settlement yet to be uncovered would have to be relatively near Piramesse if it was to be a 'slave settlement' (assuming such a thing existed).
No such settlement has been found anywhere near the site - despite extensive surveys conducted by the University of Tel Aviv in the last decade for that purpose.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Khatru on March 30, 2017, 11:07:45 AM
Anchorman

But you have to admit that such archaeology (stone prisms and the like), whilst they may corroborate certain historical OT details, don't go very far to substantiate the invention of angels (siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib) or pillars of fire in the desert.

I think it's pretty safe to say that archaeology is no friend to the Bible, particularly in regard to the Bible's claims of magical goings on.

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 30, 2017, 01:36:20 PM
Hi Jim, just to say I have found the survey of all currently known sites, and the plan is to look through some of them.

http://deltasurvey.ees.ac.uk/dsintro.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 30, 2017, 03:21:58 PM
Hi Jim, just to say I have found the survey of all currently known sites, and the plan is to look through some of them.

http://deltasurvey.ees.ac.uk/dsintro.html

-
The EES are a very reputable outfit, Spud - one of the oldest and most respected in the field - the founder, the great Amelia Edwards was the one inspired to hire Flinders Petrie,perhaps the greatest of all the early Egyptologists, (and a committed Christian, by the way)
I took part in a dig at Tanis sponsored by the EES in 1980 - and that was partly responsible for my taking a serious interest in the third Intermediate and Late Periods of Egypt.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on March 31, 2017, 09:28:06 AM
I think it's pretty safe to say that archaeology is no friend to the Bible, particularly in regard to the Bible's claims of magical goings on.




-
If you look at the earliest posts on the thread, Khatru, you'll find that archaeology confirms quite a bit of the Old Testament (at least from Kings onward). I, and many other Christians, accept the view that the Pentateuch cannot be seen as history due to editing in antiquity.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on March 31, 2017, 11:29:01 PM
Jim, I know what you mean. I was quite inspired when I came across the Aldreth Causeway just up the road from my grandparents' house. William the conqueror nearly didn't get to capture the then isle of Ely when lots of his men fell off into the marsh.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on March 31, 2017, 11:34:54 PM

 I, and many other Christians, accept the view that the Pentateuch cannot be seen as history due to editing in antiquity.



Unfortunately, Anchorman, there is only one of you and damn few of the "many other Christians" and far too many of the "the Bible is the true history and I will brook no argument against this statement" Christians on this forum!


And I, for one, not being any of those listed above, appreciate your honesty!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 01, 2017, 08:17:04 AM
Unfortunately, Anchorman, there is only one of you and damn few of the "many other Christians" and far too many of the "the Bible is the true history and I will brook no argument against this statement" Christians on this forum!


And I, for one, not being any of those listed above, appreciate your honesty!

Owl, many of the sites listed in the Delta are either overbuilt or have been destroyed by agriculture.



-
The central and Eastern Delta has yielded a very rich harvest of finds.
The Delta became strategically important from the Middle Kingdom onwards, and has been excavated by many groups in the last century and a half - and those excavations went into overdrive when Montet made the aforesaid discoveries at Tanis (which, incidentally, he thought was Piramesse because of the Rammeside statues)
With the positive identification of qantir and the digs at the various military forts on the Egypt/Sinai border established by New Kingdom kings, we have a pretty good idea of all major sites in the Eastern/Central Delta.
While of course there will be settlements as yet undiscovered, they cannot be major sites in the Pharonic times.
Again, any settlement yet to be uncovered would have to be relatively near Piramesse if it was to be a 'slave settlement' (assuming such a thing existed).
No such settlement has been found anywhere near the site - despite extensive surveys conducted by the University of Tel Aviv in the last decade for that purpose.

Jim,

I've ​read about about Tanis and about Piramesse, which was the original capital before the branch of the Nile it was near silted up. It's interesting that the Bible doesn't mention Tanis but does mention Rameses, as though that original city was still in existence at the time of writing.

Do you know if the inhabitants of Piramesse have been identified? It's apparently still being mapped, and covers about 1500 hectares.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 01, 2017, 09:26:11 AM
Owl, many of the sites listed in the Delta are either overbuilt or have been destroyed by agriculture. Jim, I've​read about about Tanis and about Piramesse, which was the original capital before the branch of the Nile it was near silted up. It's interesting that the Bible doesn't mention Tanis but does mention Rameses, as though that original city was still in existence at the time of writing. Do you know if the inhabitants of Piramesse have been identified? It's apparently still being mapped, and covers about 1500 hectares.
- Tanis has always been my destination of choice in Egypt, Spud. The reason you don't see inscriptions mentioning both cities is staggeringly simple - but almost beyond belief - but this is no April Fool. When Piramesse began to silt up because the Nile shifted its' course toward the end of the Ramesside period, the entire stonework - obelisks, Temples, statues, collossi by the dozen, were removed stone by stone and rebuilt at Djanet. This feat rivals the pyramids in its complexity, but is largely ignored. All that remains of Pirammesse are foundations and bits of flooring, etc. Many saw the 'divided' dyn XXI as weak - but the movement of an entire massive city belies that. Not only that, the stunning royal necropolis which Montet found has some of the most incredible gold and silverwork - surpassing in many ways, the tomb of Tutankhamun. So what happened to the inhabitants of Piramesse? By around 1000 there wasn't much of a city to inhabit, unless you were part of the removal project. Tanis became the northern Capital, with all the admin facilities relocated there, lock stock and barrel. Because Montet wrote in French and Egypt was administered by Britain at the time - and the small matter of the second world war got in the way - the finds at Tanis are far less publicised than they deserve to be. The golden masks - yes, plural - solid silver coffins, brilliantly executed intricate gold and silversmithing show an artistry which is superb. Google 'Psusennes I', 'Silver Pharoah', "Sheshonq II' (son of the Biblical Shishak), and Tanis treasures. You'll maybe get an idea of what I'm banging on about.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on April 02, 2017, 04:18:56 PM

Owl, many of the sites listed in the Delta are either overbuilt or have been destroyed by agriculture.



Spud

My post read:

Quote
Unfortunately, Anchorman, there is only one of you and damn few of the "many other Christians" and far too many of the "the Bible is the true history and I will brook no argument against this statement" Christians on this forum!


And I, for one, not being any of those listed above, appreciate your honesty!


Would you please explain how your comment is relevant to my post.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 05, 2017, 04:27:29 AM
- Tanis has always been my destination of choice in Egypt, Spud. The reason you don't see inscriptions mentioning both cities is staggeringly simple - but almost beyond belief - but this is no April Fool. When Piramesse began to silt up because the Nile shifted its' course toward the end of the Ramesside period, the entire stonework - obelisks, Temples, statues, collossi by the dozen, were removed stone by stone and rebuilt at Djanet. This feat rivals the pyramids in its complexity, but is largely ignored. All that remains of Pirammesse are foundations and bits of flooring, etc. Many saw the 'divided' dyn XXI as weak - but the movement of an entire massive city belies that. Not only that, the stunning royal necropolis which Montet found has some of the most incredible gold and silverwork - surpassing in many ways, the tomb of Tutankhamun. So what happened to the inhabitants of Piramesse? By around 1000 there wasn't much of a city to inhabit, unless you were part of the removal project. Tanis became the northern Capital, with all the admin facilities relocated there, lock stock and barrel. Because Montet wrote in French and Egypt was administered by Britain at the time - and the small matter of the second world war got in the way - the finds at Tanis are far less publicised than they deserve to be. The golden masks - yes, plural - solid silver coffins, brilliantly executed intricate gold and silversmithing show an artistry which is superb. Google 'Psusennes I', 'Silver Pharoah', "Sheshonq II' (son of the Biblical Shishak), and Tanis treasures. You'll maybe get an idea of what I'm banging on about.
Thanks for this, Jim. In the Septuagint, Genesis 46:28 is translated,

" all the souls of the house of Jacob who came with Joseph into Egypt, were seventy-five souls. 28 And he sent Judas before him to Joseph, to meet him to the city of Heroes, into the land of Ramesses. 29 And Joseph having made ready his chariots, went up to meet Israel his father, at the city of Heroes"


Keil & Delitzsch comment on this,  that "Raemses (cf. Genesis 47:11) was the ancient Heroopolis....." and, " if Heroopolis belonged to the γῆ Ῥαμεσσῆ, or the province of Raemses, which formed the centre of the land of Goshen that was assigned to the Israelites, this city must have stood in the immediate neighbourhood of Raemses, or have been identical with it. Now, since the researches of the scientific men attached to the great French expedition, it has been generally admitted that Heroopolis occupied the site of the modern Abu Keisheib in the Wady Tumilat, between Thoum equals Pithom and the Birket Temsah or Crocodile Lake; and according to the Itiner. p. 170, it was only 24 Roman miles to the east of Pithom, - a position that was admirably adapted not only for a magazine, but also for the gathering-place of Israel prior to their departure (Exodus 12:37)."

I looked up the Wadi Tumilat, which is apparently a canal. But I couldn't find "Keisheib". Any ideas on that?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 05, 2017, 09:03:28 AM
Some of the Hebrew words for Egyptian towns are so obscure that we can't find the Egyptian equivalent. Same with 'Heropolis' - probably a corruption of the Greek Hieropolis, of which there are at least a dozen candidates, and of cours. Hierokonpolis. Incidentally; why Greek? There were certainly Greek trading ports in the Delta for centuries before Alexander the Great - but the Egyptians themselves wouldn't have used Greek words.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 09, 2017, 07:21:50 PM
Spud,

Would you please explain how your comment is relevant to my post.
It's one reason why it's not dishonest to say that the Hebrews definitely were in Egypt in the numbers claimed by the Bible despite the lack of evidence. There may have been evidence which has since been destroyed.

An example: no evidence for the movement of some of the huge Egyptian armies through the desert towards Canaan except for what the inscriptions tell us. Yet we believe the inscriptions.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 09, 2017, 08:32:39 PM
Not entirely true, Spud. The camps of the troops of Thutmose III, Ramesses II, Merenptah etc have been identified - on the basis of burned hearth remains, discarded pottery with the names of the kings inscribed on them, a few burials - Egyptian style - of troops who, presumably, died during the shorrt rout march through Sinai, stelae erected by the 'victorious' kings of Egypt in Palestine, Syria, and as far as the Tigris and Orontes rivers. So, quite a bit of evidence outside Egypt for these military expeditions - while none INSIDE Egypt for a 'slave' population in the Delta.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 10, 2017, 08:38:10 AM
Ok Jim, will take that as true. Any comment on the overbuilding/destruction by agriculture of many of the archaeological sites that have been listed in the Delta?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 10, 2017, 09:11:38 AM
The very fact that we can note the destruction of remains by agriculture shows that we acknowledge those remains, Spud. A building, unless pulverised by modern hi-teck equipment, will always leave traces odf its' location: the colour of the soil indicating where a fire was: remnants of pots, small bits of metal, bone, etc. Even though the mudbricks themselves have long since disintegrated, traces of the foundation, walls, etc will be apparent with the judicious use of a trowel and a good pair of eyes. Magnify the numbers to include not one building, but a village or town, and the number of remnants testify to the location and existance of a population in a specific area. Add the fact that different populations at different times used different styles and techniques in making pots, and, thanks to Flinders Petrie (again), we can date the time when the pot was made, and roughly show the ethnic origin of the potter.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 10, 2017, 12:03:40 PM
I know archaeology is a very accurate and complex science, Jim. I've watched a programme called Time Team once or twice, so I am aware that entire villages can be mapped out using aerial surveying and minimal digging of trenches. I was interested that the city of Piramesse is still being mapped, using special equipment, and this is likely to take 20 years. I guess we should take your word for it that the evidence is complete enough to rule out 2 million Hebrews in the Delta, though.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 10, 2017, 01:10:08 PM
At the time of the construction of Piramesse, the Delta supported about two million of a population in total. So, no, no chance of a Hebrew slave population of two million plus enough grazing animals to sustain them. It would take around a millenium to get the Delta productive enough to sustain such numbers.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: trippymonkey on April 10, 2017, 03:28:28 PM
As far as I know,NONE of the Egyptians enemies have ever mentioned half of Egypt upping & leaving, no ?!?!?!!?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 13, 2017, 01:42:00 PM
Just found this:
Quote
A section of Papyrus Brooklyn 35.1446 contains a list of 95 servants, many of whom are specified as "Asiatic" or coming from western Asia (i.e. Canaan). The servants with foreign names are given Egyptian names, just as Joseph was when he was a household servant under Potiphar (Genesis 41:45). The majority of the names are feminine because domestic servants were typically female, while the male servants often worked in construction or agricultural tasks. Approximately 30 of the servants have names identified as from the Semitic language family (Hebrew is a Semitic language), but even more relevant to the Exodus story is that several of these servants, up to ten, actually have specifically Hebrew names. The Hebrew names found on the list include: Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem (2 Kings 15:14); Ashera, a feminine form of Asher, the name of one of the sons of Jacob (Genesis 30:13); Shiphrah, the name of one of the Hebrew midwives prior to the Exodus (Exodus 1:15); ‘Aqoba, a name appearing to be a feminine form of Jacob or Yaqob, the name of the patriarch (Genesis 25:26); ‘Ayyabum, the name of the patriarch Job or Ayob (Job 1:1); Sekera, which is a feminine name either similar to Issakar, a name of one of the sons of Jacob, or the feminine form of it (Genesis 30:18); Dawidi-huat a compound name utilizing the name David and meaning “my beloved is he” (1 Samuel 16:13); Esebtw, a name derived from the Hebrew word eseb meaning “herb” (Deuteronomy 32:2); Hayah-wr another compound name composed of Hayah or Eve and meaning “bright life” (Genesis 3:20); and finally the name Hy’b’rw, which appears to be an Egyptian transcription of Hebrew (Genesis 39:14). Thus, this list is a clear attestation of Hebrew people living in Egypt prior to the Exodus, and it is an essential piece of evidence in the argument for an historical Exodus. Although it appears that the Israelites were centered around the northeast Nile Delta area—the regions of Goshen and Rameses and the cities of Rameses, Pithom, and On—this document is from the area of Thebes to the south and includes household servants like Joseph in his early years rather than building and agricultural slaves of the period of Moses. Thus, the list appears to be an attestation of Hebrews in Egypt in their earlier period of residence in the country, prior to their total enslavement, and perhaps shows that a group may have migrated south or was taken south for work. While remains of material culture such as pottery, architecture, or artifacts may be ethnically ambiguous, Hebrew names and possibly even the word or name Hebrew clearly indicates that there were Hebrews living in Egypt. Although rather obscure, the list includes the earliest attestation of Hebrew names that has ever been recovered in Egypt, and it demonstrates that Hebrews were in Egypt prior to the 1440s BC just as the story in the book of Exodus records.
http://www.apxaioc.com/article/hebrews-egypt-exodus-evidence-papyrus-brooklyn
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 13, 2017, 05:21:35 PM
Not really evidence, more assumption. No-one disputes the Semitic origin of a lot of Egyptian names - the 14th and 15th dynasty 'Hyksos' kings were Semite in origin, and many of the inscriptions they left are in Semitic tongue(s). The eighteenth dynasty king Thutmose III had three Semitic wives (buried in the Valley of the Kings) one of whom, Merti, translates perfectly as Martha. No-one suggests she was connected to the Hebrew Exodus in any way. Even the Name YHWH is found during the time of Amenhotep III in several inscriptions; one at Luxor and two in Nubia. Again, no connection with an exodus in any Biblical sense.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 14, 2017, 08:48:35 AM
I don't think it is claiming more than that Hebrews were in Egypt before the supposed time of the Exodus, Jim.

Another interesting idea is this:

Quote
It was in the fifth year of his reign that the Delta was attacked by a formidable combination of foes. The Libyans threatened it on the west: on the north, bands of sea-pirates from the coasts of Asia Minor and the islands of the Mediterranean attacked it by sea and land. A mutilated inscription of Meneptah tells us how the tents of the invaders had been pitched on the outskirts of the land of Goshen, within reach of the Bedâwin shepherds who fed their flocks there, and how the troops of the Pharaoh, pressed at once by the enemy and by the disaffected population of Goshen, had been cooped up within the walls of the great cities, afraid to venture forth. The fate of the invasion was sealed, however, by a decisive battle in which the Egyptians almost annihilated their foes. But the land of Goshen was left empty and desolate; the foreign tribes who had dwelt in it fled into the wilderness under the cover of the Libyan invasion. The pressure of the invasion had forced the Pharaoh to allow his serfs a free passage out of Egypt, quite as much as the "signs and wonders" which were wrought by the hand of Moses. Egypt was protected on its eastern side by a line of fortifications, and through these permission was given that the Israelites should pass. But the permission was hardly [pg 50] given before it was recalled. A small body of cavalry, not move than six hundred in number, was sent in pursuit of the fugitives, who were loaded with the plunder they had carried away from the Egyptians. They were a disorganised and unwarlike multitude, consisting partly of serfs, partly of women and children, partly of stragglers from the armies of the Libyan and Mediterranean invaders. Six hundred men were deemed sufficient either to destroy them or to reduce them once more to captivity....

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/12976/12976-h/12976-h.htm

No mention of the Libyan invasion in the book of Exodus, although it's interesting that no sooner had the Israelites left Egypt than they were attacked by the Amalekites. Could the latter have been among the groups that joined the Libyans? Again it's just conjecture though.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 14, 2017, 09:49:06 AM
An interesting idea, yes, but typical of a romantic interpretation of events. First 'Goshen' is a Hebrew word with no Egyptian equivalent, so we don't know where exactly the editors of the Pentateuch thought it was. Secondly, Mernpta did not anihilate his enemies. Oh, I know he says this on his Karnak inscription - trouble is, though, every Egyptian king said the same thing  - there's even a depiction of Tutankhamun smiting 'Asiatics' and slaughtering them - despite the fact that this dates from his year 2, when he was about ten years old. Merenptah's father, Ramesses II,claimed the Battle of Kadesh as a massive triumph for the Egyptians - when at best it was an ignominious draw. The evidence is that the Lybians settled in the Western Delta. They later assimilated Egyptian customs, and, indeed, rose to rule the country in the Third Intermediate and part of the Late periods. The Canaanites, far from being anihilated, continued their campaigns on both land and sea as the 'Palistinu' - sea peoples' who were successful in establishing Phonecia as a state, but repelled from Egypt by Ramesses III - and settled with his blessing on the coast of Canaan - to become the Philistines (and later Palestinians). Don't take the propaganda on the walls of Egyptian Temples as historical fact without examining the other available evidence. Merenptah may have seen himself as a warrior king - but at most he was trying to consolidate the ground his father claimed.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 14, 2017, 01:15:58 PM
When you say, the Lybians settled in the Delta, do you mean that they didn't literally invade?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 14, 2017, 01:31:15 PM
When you say, the Lybians settled in the Delta, do you mean that they didn't literally invade?

-
There were a few minor incursions in the Western Delta, which was relatively unpopulated at the time, from as early as the rule of Hoemheb. These weren't really something to write home about - at least Ramesses II, who had everything else he did written down in umpteen places - didn't rank the skirmishes he had with the 'Meshwesh' as serious enough to crush them.
Merenptah simply imposed order in the Western Delta, took a few sons of local chiefs as hosytage (and vrought them up at court, beginning the 'Egyptianisation' in the process, flattened a few hamlets, and put his own staff officer, Ptahsebenakht, in charge as governor of the 'nome' or district.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 14, 2017, 09:20:56 PM
An interesting idea, yes, but typical of a romantic interpretation of events.
It does fit with Merneptah's predecessor Ramesses II building the city of Piramesse, which Exodus 1 says the Hebrews were involved with.

Do you know which inscription, if any, this comes from: "A mutilated inscription of Meneptah tells us how the tents of the invaders had been pitched on the outskirts of the land of Goshen, within reach of the Bedâwin shepherds who fed their flocks there, and how the troops of the Pharaoh, pressed at once by the enemy and by the disaffected population of Goshen, had been cooped up within the walls of the great cities, afraid to venture forth." ?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 14, 2017, 09:35:27 PM
It does fit with Merneptah's predecessor Ramesses II building the city of Piramesse, which Exodus 1 says the Hebrews were involved with.

Do you know which inscription, if any, this comes from: "A mutilated inscription of Meneptah tells us how the tents of the invaders had been pitched on the outskirts of the land of Goshen, within reach of the Bedâwin shepherds who fed their flocks there, and how the troops of the Pharaoh, pressed at once by the enemy and by the disaffected population of Goshen, had been cooped up within the walls of the great cities, afraid to venture forth." ?

-
Since 'Goshen' is not an Egyptian term, nor an are defined in Egyptian script, it must be an over interpreted  view of the campaigning of Merenptah found on the walls of his pylon or termenos wall at Karnak, and given a 'biblical' gloss.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on April 14, 2017, 09:56:50 PM
Cheers Jim. It's been very educational discussing this with you  :)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 15, 2017, 10:10:32 AM
Cheers Jim. It's been very educational discussing this with you  :)

-
My geekieness was started by a primary school teacher, Spud.
Our class were asked to do projects - you know the thing - and, as I was a fan of spaceflight, I chose that. My teacher said that that was a hobby, not a challenge - so I'll give you something.
The rest was archaeology!


(That teacher's still a very good friend of mine - despite everything.....)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on April 25, 2017, 09:36:41 AM
Dunno if you are logged into this site, Spud, but here's an interesting take on Egyptian fortifications in the Eastern Delta in the Ramesside era. I've been using it to dig out some stuff on the decline of the twentieth dynasty, but there is info on the strategic deployment of pharonic troops around the putative time of the Exodus....if such there was. http://www.academia.edu/9165672/_Forts_Pharaonic_Egypt_pp._2724-30_in_R._Bagnall_et._al._eds._Encyclopedia_of_Ancient_History_2013_overview_2_501_words_
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on May 01, 2017, 02:15:14 PM
- Spud: If there are no remains for a population of 600,00 - middens, cemetaries, breweries, townships, etc - then there was no such population. You might be able to lose a village of a few hundred inhabitants - or a town with a few thousands; but a population of over half a million would be impossible to lose - the traces would be far too obvious. There are no such traces in the Qantir region - absolutely none.
A few posts ago it was shown that Semitic possibly Hebrew names were found on a list of servants, from further south. Maybe the Israelites were spread throughout Egypt and assembled in Rameses for the Exodus?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on May 01, 2017, 06:20:29 PM
A few posts ago it was shown that Semitic possibly Hebrew names were found on a list of servants, from further south. Maybe the Israelites were spread throughout Egypt and assembled in Rameses for the Exodus?


- Interesting hypothesis - but you'd have to find settlements with predominantly Semitic populations from c1500-1100 in Egypt, Spud.
We haven't found any so far.
Only by the twenty-sixth dynasty do we find the hard-pressed Sait dynasty kings recruiting Jewish mercenaries - who established a functioning Temple to YHWH at Abu (Elephantine).
They were put there to guard against a resurgant Kushite threat.
This not only shows the weakened state of Egypt, but a well established faith in YHWH, and a recreation of the Solomon Temple in Jerusalem, albeit on a very small scale, is significant proof of this.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on May 02, 2017, 05:29:29 AM
Interesting, Jim.
The idea goes against the Exodus account, anyway, which says that the Israelites were still living in Goshen.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on May 02, 2017, 08:25:16 AM
Interesting, Jim.
The idea goes against the Exodus account, anyway, which says that the Israelites were still living in Goshen.

That would be the Goshen for which there's no equivalent in Egyptian, and for which no-one has yet found so much as an ostracon?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on May 03, 2017, 05:46:55 AM
That would be the Goshen for which there's no equivalent in Egyptian, and for which no-one has yet found so much as an ostracon?
Rameses is an Egyptian word, so 'the land of Rameses' is in a sense an equivalent of Goshen, I'd have thought. Whoever edited Genesis, in  47:11 seems to be using a current name for a known locatiion, as also in 35:19.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on May 03, 2017, 08:59:36 AM
 Ramesses" - or, for that matter, "Ramses" aren't Egyptian words - well, not entirely. "Ramesses" is the Greek form of the personal name of Paramesu, whom we know as Ramesses II (Although most Egyptian statuary bears his 'official' name, Usermaatre Setepenre.) The Biblical 'Ramses' is simply a linguistic variant of "Per-ramesse" / "Piramesse" - vowels being a bit iffy in hieroglyphs. The words can be traced to a common linguistic root - unlike Goshen, which has no equivalent place name in the Eastern Delta. The only vague similarity would be with Buhen - but since that was a heavily fortified border fort town throughout the New Kingdom, it can be dismissed easily as a candidate.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on May 10, 2017, 08:35:48 AM
Ramesses" - or, for that matter, "Ramses" aren't Egyptian words - well, not entirely. "Ramesses" is the Greek form of the personal name of Paramesu, whom we know as Ramesses II (Although most Egyptian statuary bears his 'official' name, Usermaatre Setepenre.) The Biblical 'Ramses' is simply a linguistic variant of "Per-ramesse" / "Piramesse" - vowels being a bit iffy in hieroglyphs. The words can be traced to a common linguistic root - unlike Goshen, which has no equivalent place name in the Eastern Delta. The only vague similarity would be with Buhen - but since that was a heavily fortified border fort town throughout the New Kingdom, it can be dismissed easily as a candidate.

Hm, so imagine the conversation between Jacob and the Pharaoh:

Jacob: we're shepherds, please can we live in Goshen?
Pharaoh: uh, live where?

The author of Genesis 47:11 may have been aware that the name Goshen needed explaining. For some reason he repeats the phrase, "in the best part of the land" which in verse 6 is followed by, "let them live in Goshen" but adds, "...the district of Rameses".
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on May 10, 2017, 09:19:41 AM
Hm, so imagine the conversation between Jacob and the Pharaoh:

Jacob: we're shepherds, please can we live in Goshen?
Pharaoh: uh, live where?

The author of Genesis 47:11 may have been aware that the name Goshen needed explaining. For some reason he repeats the phrase, "in the best part of the land" which in verse 6 is followed by, "let them live in Goshen" but adds, "...the district of Rameses".



Again, this argues for a judicious editing of what was the original, Spud.
Whatever the Egyptians were, they were humans.
If we assume that the builder of 'Ramses' was Ramesses II - and since he constructed Piramesse, he can be the only candidate, if there is one - then there's a problem.
Piramesse was a heavily militerised city fortress - that was why Ramesses put it where he did; to defend against incursions from the Eastern desert, Sinai and beyond.
Would he risk surrounding his crack cavalry and infantry with tens - hundreds of thousands of the very foriegners he was trying to prevent COMING to the Delta in the first place?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 03, 2017, 01:42:07 PM

Again, this argues for a judicious editing of what was the original, Spud.
Whatever the Egyptians were, they were humans.
If we assume that the builder of 'Ramses' was Ramesses II - and since he constructed Piramesse, he can be the only candidate, if there is one - then there's a problem.
Piramesse was a heavily militerised city fortress - that was why Ramesses put it where he did; to defend against incursions from the Eastern desert, Sinai and beyond.
Would he risk surrounding his crack cavalry and infantry with tens - hundreds of thousands of the very foriegners he was trying to prevent COMING to the Delta in the first place?



Bumped
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 04, 2017, 01:19:26 PM

Bumped
Jim,
The settling of the Hebrews in Goshen happened centuries before that, though.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 04, 2017, 03:00:48 PM
Jim,
The settling of the Hebrews in Goshen happened centuries before that, though.


Aaaaaargh!
That would be the Goshen we cannot find on a map and for which there's no evidence of anything like a large settlement, then?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 04, 2017, 08:06:53 PM
So I went onto YouTube to look for a talk on the Pharaoh of the Exodus, and ended up watching a video on how to play Steve Vai's diminished seventh guitar lick from the film Crossroads*. Does it matter that there is no evidence for a place called Goshen?
* Which I will not be attempting...
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 04, 2017, 08:32:51 PM
What matters is that there is no evidence for a Semitic slave population in the Delta; no evidence for a 'Pharaoh of the Exodus; (unless you count the whacky sites which go on about Akhenaten), no evidence for a lost Egyptian army (had such an army been 'lost', you can beet your local pyramid salesman that every local tribe, territory, statelet and chieftan from Syria to the fourth Nile cataract would have thrown off Egyptian influence at once, sure in the knowledge that the Egyptians would have no army to bring them back to order)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on August 05, 2017, 01:33:23 AM
So I went onto YouTube to look for a talk on the Pharaoh of the Exodus, and ended up watching a video on how to play Steve Vai's diminished seventh guitar lick from the film Crossroads*.
As I recall, he still wasn't good enough to win the duel.

Quote
Does it matter that there is no evidence for a place called Goshen?
Yes if you are trying to establish the historical accuracy or otherwise of the Pentateuch.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 05, 2017, 09:04:27 AM
As I recall, he still wasn't good enough to win the duel.
Something about Eugene's classical guitar training helping him beat Butler (acted by Steve Vai)? Haven't watched the film but its now on my list. Apparently Eugene mimed his solo which was performed by Steve Vai anyway!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 05, 2017, 09:49:06 AM
What matters is that there is no evidence for a Semitic slave population in the Delta; no evidence for a 'Pharaoh of the Exodus; (unless you count the whacky sites which go on about Akhenaten), no evidence for a lost Egyptian army (had such an army been 'lost', you can beet your local pyramid salesman that every local tribe, territory, statelet and chieftan from Syria to the fourth Nile cataract would have thrown off Egyptian influence at once, sure in the knowledge that the Egyptians would have no army to bring them back to order)

'Goshen' could be a later Hebrew name for the province of Rameses, which is mentioned in Genesis 47:11 as the specific location? The only issue is that you can't find any archaeological evidence for Semite slaves in the area.

Akhenaten is too late for the Exodus. Thutmoses III seems most likely. According to Wiki his firstborn son died around 1455-1444 the time of the tenth plague.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 05, 2017, 09:54:31 AM
What 'province of Rameses'? Egypt was historically divided into 'nomes' (No, there wasn't an elf service'). Originally there were fourteen, but the number varied through three thousand years. The area where the city of Piramesse was located was part of the 'nome' of Djenet - Tanis - and the Bible already has a name for that area - "Zoan".
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 06, 2017, 04:54:05 AM
What 'province of Rameses'? Egypt was historically divided into 'nomes' (No, there wasn't an elf service'). Originally there were fourteen, but the number varied through three thousand years. The area where the city of Piramesse was located was part of the 'nome' of Djenet - Tanis - and the Bible already has a name for that area - "Zoan".
Sorry, my mistake. Joseph settled his father and brothers in 'the land of Rameses'. The word 'land' here (erets) implies a region or country. It is used to describe Canaan, for example. Also, 'Rameses' in this verse appears to be a different word from the word that describes one of the cities built by the people of Israel ('Raamses'),  although Strong's concordance lists both words under the same entry, 7486. One is a land, the other is a city.

Yes, Zoan is translated 'Tanis' by the Septuagint.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Beyoncé Castle on August 06, 2017, 08:04:09 AM
The stories in the Bible from the Two Kingdom period (after the reign of Solomon) have some external corroboration. For example, there is some Assyrian documentation relating to how they destroyed the Northern Kingdom. There are some Babylonian documents relating to the downfall of Judah.

Furthermore, there is archaeological evidence that the Noerthern Kingdom existed as a political entity at the time the Bible says it did. Similarly for Judah in the period after the Northern Kingdom was destroyed.
That's just history, though, with no miraculous element. Much of what's recorded in the later OT, from about David onwards, is probably true, and you don't have to be a conservative Christian or Jew to believe so.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 06, 2017, 09:18:11 AM
'Goshen' could be a later Hebrew name for the province of Rameses, which is mentioned in Genesis 47:11 as the specific location? The only issue is that you can't find any archaeological evidence for Semite slaves in the area.

Akhenaten is too late for the Exodus. Thutmoses III seems most likely. According to Wiki his firstborn son died around 1455-1444 the time of the tenth plague.
   

In which case, Moses was either
A) referring to the Egypt of his day - thus putting the Exodus at the time of Ramesses II 0 which, given the Merenptah stela, doesn't make sense:
B( ignorant of the history of the country in which he was raised - there was NO  'Ramesses' 400 years earlier when Joseph entered Egypt.
Ramesses is a name which originated in the Delta and indicates a non Egyptian (Lybian) element in the ancestry, which would not be surprising:
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on August 07, 2017, 09:02:51 AM

Why has this been moved?

The whole argument is about references in the Christian Bible and was started by Sassy in an attempt to claim PROOF of the Exodus led by the Christian Moses!

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 07, 2017, 09:14:59 AM
Why has this been moved?

The whole argument is about references in the Christian Bible and was started by Sassy in an attempt to claim PROOF of the Exodus led by the Christian Moses!

Because none of the discussion has been about Christianity and Moses was Jewish
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 07, 2017, 08:40:56 PM
In which case, Moses was either
A) referring to the Egypt of his day - thus putting the Exodus at the time of Ramesses II 0 which, given the Merenptah stela, doesn't make sense:
B( ignorant of the history of the country in which he was raised - there was NO  'Ramesses' 400 years earlier when Joseph entered Egypt.
Ramesses is a name which originated in the Delta and indicates a non Egyptian (Lybian) element in the ancestry, which would not be surprising:

What do you think about the difference in spelling between the name of the city they built (Raamses) and the name of the land Joseph settled his family in (Rameses)?

These seem to be two different place names. I'm not sure how the Hebrew works, but your point about a Lybian origin is interesting.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 07, 2017, 09:25:26 PM
What do you think about the difference in spelling between the name of the city they built (Raamses) and the name of the land Joseph settled his family in (Rameses)?

These seem to be two different place names. I'm not sure how the Hebrew works, but your point about a Lybian origin is interesting.



Not a lot - since both are translated versions of a mistranslation - or misunderstanding - by those who either wrote or edited the Pentateuch. Had Moses written it at the time, he would have used neither word.
He would have used "Per-Ramesse" as the name of the city, and "Usermaatre-setepenre Mery-Amun as the throne name of the king - the name by which Paramessu was known after his accession.
"Ramesses" is the Hellenised form of "Paramessu" [- the king's birth name which was only used in private correspondance or as an adjunct to his prenomen.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 08, 2017, 09:59:14 AM
What matters is that there is no evidence for a Semitic slave population in the Delta

Barnes says that the Israelites were prevented from leaving Egypt, rather than enslaved:

Exodus 1:10:
"Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land."

Barnes: "The Pharaohs apprehended the loss of revenue and power, which would result from the withdrawal of a peaceful and industrious race."

Exodus 1:11:
"Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens."

Barnes: "Taskmasters - The Egyptian "Chiefs of tributes." They were men of rank, superintendents of the public works, such as are often represented on Egyptian monuments, and carefully distinguished from the subordinate overseers. The Israelites were employed in forced labor, probably in detachments, but they were not reduced to slavery, properly speaking, nor treated as captives of war. Amosis had special need of such laborers, as proved by the inscriptions."
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 08, 2017, 10:49:27 AM
 "revenue  and power"? Barnes, therefore, had no idea how the Egyptian economy in the New Kingdom worked, then. "revenue" meant agriculture - dependent on the annual inundation. Everyone who was not of the 'middle class' or higher, worked the land - everyone : soldier, sailor, builder - the lot - as soon as the Nile receded. The idea was to get the seed in ASAP. That took around six weeks, then people went back to their trade (unless permanently employed by royal or priestly warrant on tomb or temple construction. Even houses were abandoned half way through to get the planting done. The idea of keeping a reserve force to do this kind of thing is ludicrous - uneconomic for starters. And since there is no evidence of anything unusual in the Egyptian workforce which constructed Piramesse, where were the Hebrews? Where were their settlements? Their burials or rubbish dumps? So far, Spud, you have not given even the slightest evidence which would substantiate your ideas.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on August 09, 2017, 09:25:58 AM

 "revenue  and power"? Barnes, therefore, had no idea how the Egyptian economy in the New Kingdom worked, then. "revenue" meant agriculture - dependent on the annual inundation. Everyone who was not of the 'middle class' or higher, worked the land - everyone : soldier, sailor, builder - the lot - as soon as the Nile receded. The idea was to get the seed in ASAP. That took around six weeks, then people went back to their trade (unless permanently employed by royal or priestly warrant on tomb or temple construction. Even houses were abandoned half way through to get the planting done. The idea of keeping a reserve force to do this kind of thing is ludicrous - uneconomic for starters. And since there is no evidence of anything unusual in the Egyptian workforce which constructed Piramesse, where were the Hebrews? Where were their settlements? Their burials or rubbish dumps? So far, Spud, you have not given even the slightest evidence which would substantiate your ideas.


Could this be because there is not even the slightest evidence which would substantiate your (Spud's) ideas?

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 10, 2017, 07:29:09 PM
Recycling par excellance. Here's a fragment - from Israel - with the cartouche of  Hequaiunu Usermaatre Mery-Amun Ramesses (III) 1182-1151. It was built into a Roman building - but must have been left over from his expulsion of the 'Palestinu' ("Sea Peoples") and his pursuing them into Canaan - inadvertantly setting up the 'Philistines' on the Canaan coast in the process. This cannot be earlier than his year 7 (c1178 BC) https://www.flickr.com/photos/archer10/33893326303
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on August 10, 2017, 07:40:02 PM
Why has this been moved?

The whole argument is about references in the Christian Bible and was started by Sassy in an attempt to claim PROOF of the Exodus led by the Christian Moses!
In her OP Sassy made no claim that Moses was a Christian.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on August 10, 2017, 10:02:55 PM

In her OP Sassy made no claim that Moses was a Christian.


This is Sasssy we are talking about and in her world if it is in the Bible, as Exodus is (including Exodus 22:18), it is Christian history!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 11, 2017, 04:24:17 AM


Not a lot - since both are translated versions of a mistranslation - or misunderstanding - by those who either wrote or edited the Pentateuch. Had Moses written it at the time, he would have used neither word.
He would have used "Per-Ramesse" as the name of the city, and "Usermaatre-setepenre Mery-Amun as the throne name of the king - the name by which Paramessu was known after his accession.
"Ramesses" is the Hellenised form of "Paramessu" [- the king's birth name which was only used in private correspondance or as an adjunct to his prenomen.
I'm confused because this would imply that the city built by the Hebrews along with Pithom was Piramesse. Yet Psalm 78:12 talks about God's miracles in Zoan, which according to numbers 13:22 was built around the same time as Hebron and thus seems to imply the Hyksos capital of Avaris.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 11, 2017, 05:12:05 AM
What was happening at the site on which Piramesse was built before it became Piramesse?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 11, 2017, 08:35:02 AM
I'm confused because this would imply that the city built by the Hebrews along with Pithom was Piramesse. Yet Psalm 78:12 talks about God's miracles in Zoan, which according to numbers 13:22 was built around the same time as Hebron and thus seems to imply the Hyksos capital of Avaris.


     Sorry - blasted Greeks get everywhere.
"Avaris" is the Greek name for the city the Egyptians called "Hutwaret".
The place has been excavated umpteen times - and there's no suggestion the place was ever called 'Ramses' or anything like it.
After the Hyksos were expelled, the place was pretty much ruined - until Thutmose III built a fort there a century later.
Then there's not a lot of activity until Ramesses  III rebuilt the fort in preparation for his campaign against the 'Sea Peoples!" - and after that, it fell into disuse, replaced by Djanet (Tanis) as Delta capital.

 
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 11, 2017, 08:39:49 AM
What was happening at the site on which Piramesse was built before it became Piramesse?

Nothing!
Ramesses II built the city because there was a perceived threat from the Hittites - and it was built to house the northern charit corps, as well as being an administrative capital.
Kings tended to do that - build new cities where none existed - Ij-Tawy, Akhetaten, Piramesse, Djanet, Bubastis - all examples of the concept.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 13, 2017, 11:00:39 PM
Jim,
Just checking in with a clue I came across today. When Caleb and his friends explored the promised land, they said in their report that there were Hittites living in the hill country in Canaan. Could this indicate that it was before the time when Egypt was in control of Canaan? The passage is Numbers 13.

I also realised that Avaris was just a mile down the road from Piramesse - a slightly important detail!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 14, 2017, 08:45:28 AM
 I doubt any serious Hittite military presence in Canaan, Spud. Akheperkare Thutmose (I) conducted several expansionist campaigns in the area around 1540-1525 BC, and established Egyptian rule over most of Palestine - in an effort to eradicate any future Hyksos invasion of the Delta. Of course, there might have been Hittite trading posts there, just as the Egyptians had trading posts in Hittusa. Besides, it would be several decades before the expansion of the Hittites made them a power in the area, and by tat time, Egypt had annexed most of Syria and penetrated what is now southern Iraq (inadvertently forcing the statelets there to coalesce into what would become Assyria) By the time Egyptian power in Palestine began to wane, around 1130, the Hittite empire had long ceased to exist.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on August 15, 2017, 08:45:13 AM
I doubt any serious Hittite military presence in Canaan, Spud. Akheperkare Thutmose (I) conducted several expansionist campaigns in the area around 1540-1525 BC, and established Egyptian rule over most of Palestine - in an effort to eradicate any future Hyksos invasion of the Delta. Of course, there might have been Hittite trading posts there, just as the Egyptians had trading posts in Hittusa. Besides, it would be several decades before the expansion of the Hittites made them a power in the area, and by tat time, Egypt had annexed most of Syria and penetrated what is now southern Iraq (inadvertently forcing the statelets there to coalesce into what would become Assyria) By the time Egyptian power in Palestine began to wane, around 1130, the Hittite empire had long ceased to exist.
I agree with that. They must have just been living among the other groups. There were three phases between the Exodus and King David: the 40 years of wondering in the desert, followed by the invasion of Canaan and taking of cities occupied by various groups, then the wars against the Philistines. It is interesting that as you say there's no mention in the Pentateuch, Joshua or Judges, of the battles going on between the Egyptians, Hittites and Mitanni. But the Assyrian take-over of much of the region is well documented later in the Bible.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on August 15, 2017, 08:55:01 AM
Which only adds to the theory that the Pentateuch was edited later in history. Incidentally, the fact that 'Philistines' (Egyptian 'Palestinu' - 'Sea Peoples') are mentioned puts the storiies of the fight against them toward the end of Ramesses III's reign, or that of his ineffective successor, Ramesses IV; since Ramesses III expelled the 'Sea Peoples' from the coast of Egypt, where they had tried to invade - just as they had invaded many Eastern Mediterranean territories, destabilising the area for decades to come. The invaders settled along the coast of what is now Israel. creating yet another mini state - Philistia.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 07, 2017, 12:09:25 AM
Quote
The invaders settled along the coast of what is now Israel. creating yet another mini state - Philistia.
Do we know when this was in relation to their invasion of Egypt? Genesis says that the Philistines lived in Gerar at the time of Abraham.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 07, 2017, 01:59:57 PM
I'd say 1176 or 1175 BC would be the best candidates for the culmination of the "Sea Peoples" crisis.
The remnant were driven off to settle on the Canaanite coast (many of this disparate group being of Canaanite descent anyway) and the name the Egyptians gave them "Plstn" which we tansliterate as "Palestinu" was further refined by the writers/editors of the Pentatwuch to "Philistines".
I don't normally use Wiki, but this link gives a reasonable view of the timelines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Reign_of_Ramesses_III
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 07, 2017, 06:18:18 PM
Thanks for the link, a bit of reading for me to do. It's interesting that the Philistines are mentioned just after the exodus, when the Israelites went a different route so as to avoid their territory. They must have been living in south west Canaan before Rameses III ?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 07, 2017, 07:07:19 PM
So you are presuming that some sort of exodus took place round about the end of Ramesses II's time or shortly thereafter - based on what evidence, please?
I  could site evidence that the DNA of populations in what became Israel dating from the 7th century BC differ in no significant way from the population in the same area eight centuries earlier.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: trippymonkey on September 08, 2017, 12:58:48 PM
Because none of the discussion has been about Christianity and Moses was Jewish

Ironically so was Jesus ?!!?!?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 08, 2017, 04:23:58 PM
So you are presuming that some sort of exodus took place round about the end of Ramesses II's time or shortly thereafter - based on what evidence, please?
I  could site evidence that the DNA of populations in what became Israel dating from the 7th century BC differ in no significant way from the population in the same area eight centuries earlier.
I think Ramesses II is too late, I was presuming on around 1446 BC. So do you think the Philistines didn't live along the coast of Canaan at that time (1446 BC)?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 08, 2017, 04:27:30 PM
From GotQuestions.org there are two Bible references stating that the Philistines originated in Caphtor, i.e. Crete:
Amos 9:7, Jeremiah 47:4
https://www.gotquestions.org/Philistines.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on September 08, 2017, 06:56:48 PM
From GotQuestions.org there are two Bible references stating that the Philistines originated in Caphtor, i.e. Crete:
Amos 9:7, Jeremiah 47:4
https://www.gotquestions.org/Philistines.html


Honestly Spud, when are you going to realise that the Bible is NOT a factual historical record no matter how much you try to make it so and want it to be so?

This thread has shown time after time that you are talking nonsense and arguing for something that archeology has proven did not happen!

I will give you marks for persistance and deduct twenty times as many for persistant ignorance of factual evidence against you presented by someone who argues from fact and not from fiction or faith!

From my perspective, and I am not Christian, you have become what is usually described, in polite society, as a crashing bore who is intent on wasting as much of Anchorman's time and patience, for which he has my utmost admiration, as possible.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 08, 2017, 08:36:47 PM
I think Ramesses II is too late, I was presuming on around 1446 BC. So do you think the Philistines didn't live along the coast of Canaan at that time (1446 BC)?




Early on on this thread, I showed why 1446 was untenenable as a possible date for Exodus.
Equally, there is no evidence for a Philistine nation before Ramesses III repulsed their attempted colonisation of the Delta.
After that, evidence of the Greco/Phoenican style pottery associated with the Sea Peoles/Palestinu starts to turn up in quantity in settlements on the coast of Canaan. It seems pretty clear that the establishment of their state starts around then.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 08, 2017, 08:39:45 PM
From GotQuestions.org there are two Bible references stating that the Philistines originated in Caphtor, i.e. Crete:
Amos 9:7, Jeremiah 47:4
https://www.gotquestions.org/Philistines.html



Dunno where that comes from.
The Sea Peoples were an amalgum of peoples - some Greek, others Lybian and Canaanite, with other Mediterranean ifluences. They seem to have coalesced with the disinegration of the Hittite state.
Power abhors a vacuum, it seems.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 09, 2017, 03:04:20 PM


Early on on this thread, I showed why 1446 was untenenable as a possible date for Exodus.
Equally, there is no evidence for a Philistine nation before Ramesses III repulsed their attempted colonisation of the Delta.
After that, evidence of the Greco/Phoenican style pottery associated with the Sea Peoles/Palestinu starts to turn up in quantity in settlements on the coast of Canaan. It seems pretty clear that the establishment of their state starts around then.
If that is the case then the timespans listed in Judges fit nicely with a date of around the mid-1400s BC for the Exodus. I've counted 364 years listed in the book of Judges, beteeen the death of Joshua and when the Philistines came on the scene to oppress Israel. This continued for 40 years, then Samson led Israel against them for 20 years. The Philistines would have begun their assault in about 1042 by this calculation.

By the way I hope I am not annoying you by discussing this, please say if you've had enough...
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 09, 2017, 06:47:06 PM
Calculate away!
However, there is no evidence that any Delta city was being built around tht time.
Avaris/Hutwaret had been destroyed eighty years earlier - staratification deposits confirm this - and was unoccupied.
Thutmose III built a fort/palace next to the ruins, but that would be slightly too late for your calculations, and, besides, wouldn;t require much labour to construct it; these fort/palaces were normally consturucted in jig-time by the army.
The next major city to be built in Egypt - and a capital city at that - would be around 1355, in Middle Egypt, by Akhenaten(and we have located the burial ground of those who built it...which contained the usual Egyptian pots, bowles, 'bes-amulets'...and a collection of Egyptians who seem to have been overworked and underfed, but with no signs of violence)
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 14, 2017, 09:36:14 AM
Dunno if this is any use to you, Spud, but I was doing something else unrelated to the topic when I remembered this page from University College London.
The whole site's worth a look as well.
It gives a reasonable overview of Piramesse ('Ramses')
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/qatar/research/qantir-piramesse
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 14, 2017, 12:53:27 PM
Hi Jim, thanks - having a look now.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 16, 2017, 03:06:43 PM
Jim,

That was a very interesting article about Piramesse.

I think I have found something concrete to add to the pool of data on this subject, small but perhaps relevant. In Numbers 11:21 Moses is speaking with God about the people, who were moaning. Moses says to God, "Here am I among 600,000 men on foot, and you say, 'I will give them meat to eat for a whole month!'"
Earlier, in verse 4 of the same chapter, the mixed multitude who left Egypt with the Israelites are said to have been craving other food than the manna they were eating.
Apparently then, the mixed multitude were included in the 600,000 men that Moses mentions in verse 21.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 16, 2017, 05:30:11 PM
What has that todo with Qantir/Piramesse?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 16, 2017, 05:56:27 PM
Nothing - by "this subject" I meant the thread, in general, not Piramesse.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 16, 2017, 08:21:42 PM
Then we're back to square one - no evidence for the numbers hinted at in Exodus or Numbers, noevidence for such numbers in the whole of Egypt, never mind the Eastern Delta, no evidence for a slave population constructing a northern capital......
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 19, 2017, 12:18:40 PM
Hi Jim, I know I said "nothing" but that may not be the case. If the descendants of Jacob numbered seventy men when he moved to Egypt, and 'the children of Israel' numbered 600,000 men (a figure that is intended to be read literally because it is repeated later) a few centuries later, there must have been other people in Jacob's household who were circumcised and thus counted as Israelites. Intermarriage with Egyptians and Canaanites could have facilitated such a rapid population growth. Whatever race an individual was, he/she would have been identified with Israel through the covenant of circumcision. It would follow that any traces of them left today would not easily be distinguished as 'Israelites' but would be interpretted loosely as 'Semitic' or 'Egyptian', etc.
This does indeed seem to be how the evidence has been interpreted, so that the first signs of a distinct Israelite nation does not appear until centuries later, with for example the mention of them on the Merneptah Stele. I might be wrong- what do you think?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 19, 2017, 01:17:38 PM
That Merenptah gave a passing mention to Israel as a small tribe suggests a pre-existant population there - a population established enough to be worth mentioning on a Temple inscription in Egypt.
So, either that population had never LEFT Canaan, or the exodus, had it happened during or after the building of Piramesse (less than twenty yrars earlier), was much, much smaller than what the Pentateuch describes, and possibly an enforced migration of a minor Semitic tribe from the Eastern Delta back to the area where the rest of that tribe already lived.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on September 19, 2017, 03:12:27 PM

That Merenptah gave a passing mention to Israel as a small tribe suggests a pre-existant population there - a population established enough to be worth mentioning on a Temple inscription in Egypt.
So, either that population had never LEFT Canaan, or the exodus, had it happened during or after the building of Piramesse (less than twenty yrars earlier), was much, much smaller than what the Pentateuch describes, and possibly an enforced migration of a minor Semitic tribe from the Eastern Delta back to the area where the rest of that tribe already lived.


Do you not get the feeling that you are going to do yourself a serious mischief continually banging your head against the concrete wall of Spud's refusal to accept that the Biblical "history" of the Exodus is actually anything but History?

Unless of course you call it Historical fiction or Historical myth, rather like Robin Hood and the Loch Ness Monster?

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 19, 2017, 04:13:49 PM
Do you not get the feeling that you are going to do yourself a serious mischief continually banging your head against the concrete wall of Spud's refusal to accept that the Biblical "history" of the Exodus is actually anything but History?

Unless of course you call ir Historical fiction or Historical myth, rather like Robin Hood and the Loch Ness Monster?



I've never actually dismissed the entire Exodus story as fiction - or even myth, Owlswing:
I've argued that there was a judicious editing of some earlier documents around the early sixth or late fifth centuries - incorporating ideas and peoples contemporary with that time, and throwing in bits of remembered iral history to a core story.
There's nothing to stop a high ranking Hebrew/Canaanite leader who had held high rank at court rebelling and taking his tribe - or some of it - from Egypt, pursued by a nomarch or army group.
That Semitic people already existed in the Delta, I think I've shown.
That they even existed at court - some becoming  minor wives of kings - I've also shown.
The scenario I described is not beyond the bounds of possibility.
The scenario as written down in the Pentatech we have today, however, is.


Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on September 19, 2017, 05:55:23 PM

The scenario as written down in the Pentatech we have today, however, is.


That is the only thing that I was referring to - the bit Spud keeps going on abouit and trying to prove - the exit of the 600,000.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 21, 2017, 11:04:07 AM
That is the only thing that I was referring to - the bit Spud keeps going on abouit and trying to prove - the exit of the 600,000.
You have read the book of Numbers, I hope? It tells us how many there were in each clan, and the figures add up to 600,000. We can be sure this figure is accurate because it I s firmly reiterated several times.

Jim, I wanted to emphasize that I don't hold to the theory that Rameses II was the 'Exodus pharaoh'. Neither that the Israelites built Piramesse for him. I think Exodus 1:11 may be referring to Avaris, but need to look into it more.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Trentvoyager on September 21, 2017, 11:07:34 AM
Quote
and the figures add up to 600,000. We can be sure this figure is accurate because it I s firmly reiterated several times.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

Yep - works for me.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 21, 2017, 11:38:00 AM
You have read the book of Numbers, I hope? It tells us how many there were in each clan, and the figures add up to 600,000. We can be sure this figure is accurate because it I s firmly reiterated several times.

Jim, I wanted to emphasize that I don't hold to the theory that Rameses II was the 'Exodus pharaoh'. Neither that the Israelites built Piramesse for him. I think Exodus 1:11 may be referring to Avaris, but need to look into it more.




So why on earth would Exodus refer to Hutwaret (Avaris/tell el dab'a( as "Ramses"?
If you're going with an earlier date for Exodus (for which you've provided no evidence), then you can only mean dyn XVIII and the reign of Amenhotep II.
We've already been there: Egypt had pushed out into Canaan already - and further. An escaping tribe would have been wasting its' time settling there if it wanted to get out of Egypt,.
Even if you add on the proverbial forty years, that makes things even worse - because Egypt's borders had stretched to what is now Turkey.
And if you want to go into semantics, why would an Egyptian king of the mid eighteenth dynasty, who was either tied to, or promoting, the cult of Amun of Thebes name a city for Ra of Heliopolis?
We already know Amenhotep II built minor shrines to Amun at Hutwaret, and further north at Bubastis, Xois, etc. He even left dedications to Amun in the Sinai and what is now southern Israel.
There's evidence of him enhancing the Re temple at Heliopolis and Memphis, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 21, 2017, 12:23:34 PM
Jim, there was nothing Egypt could do at the time because its army no longer existed.

I don't know which pharaoh it was but I'm new to Egyptian history; maybe it will become clear at some point.

The reason I think the city named Rameses in Ex.1:11 may refer to Hutwaret is because the Pentateuch wasn't written until later, perhaps after Piramesse had been built and while it was still in existence. Hence also the reference to the Land of Rameses in Genesis. Plus the fact that the non-Pentateuchal references to the exodus, written still later, speak of Zoan (Tanis), which was the then primary city, the others being uninhabited.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 21, 2017, 01:18:43 PM
Jim, there was nothing Egypt could do at the time because its army no longer existed.

I don't know which pharaoh it was but I'm new to Egyptian history; maybe it will become clear at some point.

The reason I think the city named Rameses in Ex.1:11 may refer to Hutwaret is because the Pentateuch wasn't written until later, perhaps after Piramesse had been built and while it was still in existence. Hence also the reference to the Land of Rameses in Genesis. Plus the fact that the non-Pentateuchal references to the exodus, written still later, speak of Zoan (Tanis), which was the then primary city, the others being uninhabited.

 

You're really clutching at straws, Spud.
There is virtually no time at which the army of Egypt no longer existed - from around 2000 BC onward.
Indeed, the New kingdom (Dyn XVIII-XX) was founded by kings from Thebes in the preceding dyn XVII who had to have a well organised, standing force to fight against, and eventually expel, the Hyksos.
The Egyptian professional corps of chariotry was feared throughout the Middle East.
Even in the decline of the New Kingdom, in the Ramesside period (following the death (assassination) of Ramesses III, Egypt maintained a standing military force.
The kings of the dyn XXI and XXII dynasties, albeit with limited power, maintained armies in the Delta.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 21, 2017, 01:27:14 PM
 

You're really clutching at straws, Spud.
There is virtually no time at which the army of Egypt no longer existedf - from around 2000 BC onward.
Indeed, the New kingdom (Dyn XVIII-XX) was founded by kings from Thebes in the preceeding dyn XVII wo had to have a well organised, standing force to fight against, and eventually expel, the HYksos.
The Egyptian prrofessional corps of chariotry was feared throughout the Middle East.
Even in the decline of the New Kingdom, in the Ramesside period (following the death (assassination) of Ramesses III, Egypt maintained a standing military force.
The kings of the dyn XXI and XXII dynasties, albeit with limited power, maintained armies in the Delta.

I suspect Spud was taking the time after they were all drowned, according to the Bible,  as when they didn't have an army.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 21, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Aaaaaaargh!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 21, 2017, 02:08:54 PM
Jim, there was nothing Egypt could do at the time because its army no longer existed.

I don't know which pharaoh it was but I'm new to Egyptian history; maybe it will become clear at some point.

The reason I think the city named Rameses in Ex.1:11 may refer to Hutwaret is because the Pentateuch wasn't written until later, perhaps after Piramesse had been built and while it was still in existence. Hence also the reference to the Land of Rameses in Genesis. Plus the fact that the non-Pentateuchal references to the exodus, written still later, speak of Zoan (Tanis), which was the then primary city, the others being uninhabited.

 


Whoops!
So you're arguing that the Exodus happened centuries BEFORE Piramesse was built, and that those who wrote/edited it knew of Piramesse?
So, that rules Moses out as the author, then........
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on September 21, 2017, 05:13:05 PM
I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

Yep - works for me.


Nice one Trent - how's things in your neck of the non-Christian woods?



Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 21, 2017, 05:40:39 PM
Whoops!
So you're arguing that the Exodus happened centuries BEFORE Piramesse was built, and that those who wrote/edited it knew of Piramesse?
Yes, that's correct.
Quote
So, that rules Moses out as the author, then.......
Moses did of course write some of the Pentateuch though.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 21, 2017, 05:45:31 PM
Deuteronomy 31:9, "So Moses wrote down this law and gave it to the Levitical priests, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel."
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 21, 2017, 05:50:39 PM
I came across this comment on YouTube:
"the hebrews entered egypt after prophet Josef become the ruler of the occupied north of egypt ( by the hyksos ) , the sons of isreal lived as a noble ppl for less than 60 years n the north occupied egypt & once the pharaohs reclamed it back they were enslaved"
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Nearly Sane on September 21, 2017, 05:54:30 PM
I came across this comment on YouTube:
"the hebrews entered egypt after prophet Josef become the ruler of the occupied north of egypt ( by the hyksos ) , the sons of isreal lived as a noble ppl for less than 60 years n the north occupied egypt & once the pharaohs reclamed it back they were enslaved"

And???


I saw a YouTube comment that said 'shhunn kill bastrad nigggers, wimpos'
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 21, 2017, 06:27:39 PM
I came across this comment on YouTube:
"the hebrews entered egypt after prophet Josef become the ruler of the occupied north of egypt ( by the hyksos ) , the sons of isreal lived as a noble ppl for less than 60 years n the north occupied egypt & once the pharaohs reclamed it back they were enslaved"



Nice quote.
No evidence to back it up - and, by the way, it doesn't correspond with Genesis. Joseph is supposed to have entered Egypt, become an official - even vizier - under the king - and helped his family out when it came to famine relief.
There's a problem there - well, more than one. If Joseph was around during the Second Intermediate period, then there was no united Egypt to be vizier of. Even the Hyksos controlled Delta had three - sometimes five - separate statelets at the same time, not to mention the break up of Middle Egypt. Indications are that this started with a series of low Nile floods at the end of dyn XII - hence famine in Egypt itself - and with the breakup of cenral authority, the irrigation canals which enabled such superabundant harvests when the Nile rose correctly, were niot maintained, suggesting that food was pretty scarce at this time.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 23, 2017, 05:54:09 PM
I know, it's annoying that he didn't state why he thought that, but it seems to be an example of how you can treat the biblical account as history, and try to reconcile it with other findings. Even though he might be wrong, he has the right approach.

There may be parts of the book of Exodus that are not meant to be historically accurate, for example the ten plagues are arranged in three groups of three, plus the last one. But the numbers of people involved do seem to be intended as accurate.

Assuming by the breakup of Middle Egypt' you mean the end of the Middle Kingdom, around 1650 BC, yes I had read about the probable cause of that being famine and breakup of central authority. You may have linked to it in this thread. Maybe those periods of famine are the same as those described in Genesis? If so, then it would make sense that Jacob's move to Egypt occurred during the same famines, before the Hyksos arrived. Happy to be rebutted on that.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on September 23, 2017, 06:39:56 PM
You have read the book of Numbers, I hope? It tells us how many there were in each clan, and the figures add up to 600,000.

It doesn't matter what the Bible says. The physical evidence contradicts the assertion that there were 600,000 Israelites.

Can you not imagine the rubbish that these people would leave behind? For example, if each one lived to be 60 years old, there would be 10,000 deaths every year. They were in the wilderness for 40 years, where are the 400,000 skeletons? Where are the animal bones? The broken pottery? the remains of the dwelling places? the fire pits?

Please stop quoting the Bible as though it was divine knowledge. The numbers in it are fictitious.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 23, 2017, 07:30:21 PM
 vThere are three periods in Egyptian history when central state control was lessened - we call them "Intermediate Periods".
The second of these, from the middle of the thirteenth dynasty until the reunification of Egypt under Ahmose I of dyn XVIII, is the one we're on about.

The last king to have even a tenuous rule over the whole land was Neferhotep I of the mid dyn XIII, and by that time his power, though acknowledged, was greatly weakened.
We know a lot more than we used to about it - for example, the Hyksos controlled Delta was not ruled by one king, though there may have been an 'overking' ruling separate small settlements.
Middle Egypt - from what is now Cairo to Luxor - split apart, and several 'kings' all calling themselves 'Lord of the Two 'lands' ruled at any one time.
Two years ago, we found proof of an unknown dynasty ruling from Abydos at this time.
In other words, there were no 'good times'; no surplus of grain - and no high official of a king of a united Egypt, be he Egyptian or Hebrew.
Whenever the Joseph story took place, it had to be much earlier than the thirteenth dynasty - which would, of course, wreck the figures laid down in Exodus - showing - again - that those who edited it had no access to
 Egyptian source material, and whatever 'history' is in the Pentateuch simply cannot tally with what we know of the period through painstaking research.
The Second Intermediate Period - like the third - has always fascinated me; possibly because it was so obscure; no gold or sensational gems to gasp at - but there is abundant archeaology, and more is being found each year relating to it - and creating a far more complex story than we once thought existed.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 24, 2017, 08:50:40 AM
It doesn't matter what the Bible says. The physical evidence contradicts the assertion that there were 600,000 Israelites.

Can you not imagine the rubbish that these people would leave behind? For example, if each one lived to be 60 years old, there would be 10,000 deaths every year. They were in the wilderness for 40 years, where are the 400,000 skeletons? Where are the animal bones? The broken pottery? the remains of the dwelling places? the fire pits?

Please stop quoting the Bible as though it was divine knowledge. The numbers in it are fictitious.
1 Corinthians 10:5

Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Animals-Eating-People

See for example,
Ezekiel 29:5

"I will abandon you to the wilderness, you and all the fish of your rivers; You will fall on the open field; you will not be brought together or gathered I have given you for food to the beasts of the earth and to the birds of the sky.

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 24, 2017, 09:05:29 AM
Deuteronomy 29:5

Yet the Lord says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God.”
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 29, 2017, 09:35:46 AM
Just came across this on Academia; a paper on the Egyptian population in the Hyksos city of Avaris before the expulsion of the Hyksos.
Pretty technical, but worth a read, Spud.

https://www.academia.edu/30954738/THE_EGYPTIAN_COMMUNITY_IN_AVARIS_DURING_THE_HYKSOS_PERIOD_Egypt_and_the_Levant_26_2016_263-274
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on October 10, 2017, 09:35:59 PM
Just found this:
Probably the earliest extant document from the Palestinu / Philistines (Sea Peoples)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/archaeologists-decipher-ancient-stone-turkey-invasion-mysterious-sea-people-luwain-hieroglyphic-a7992141.html
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on October 11, 2017, 02:10:02 PM
Steady on Jim! Only just finished reading the abstract for the previous one!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on October 17, 2017, 12:59:00 PM
Just came across this on Academia; a paper on the Egyptian population in the Hyksos city of Avaris before the expulsion of the Hyksos.
Pretty technical, but worth a read, Spud.

https://www.academia.edu/30954738/THE_EGYPTIAN_COMMUNITY_IN_AVARIS_DURING_THE_HYKSOS_PERIOD_Egypt_and_the_Levant_26_2016_263-274

Thanks for this. I've read a few pages of it. It says that the Egyptians who lived at Avaris before the immigration of Canaanites to the area during the 12th and 13th Dynasty were themselves immigrants from the Near East, though by that time fully Egyptianised.

I'm up to the bit that says, "To our surprise, however, there is now new evidence that the Egyptians at Avaris were able, to some extent, to keep their identity and also stayed in the oldest part of the settlement as a block together. "

This wouldn't go against the Genesis/Exodus account which says that the descendants of Jacob became Egyptianised, but lived in a separate region and kept their identity.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on October 17, 2017, 04:40:22 PM
The problem, though, is that the Hyksos, though 'egyptianised' - to an extent - kept their own identity as well. as their radically different burial customs show - and their adherance to Reshep, and Baal, incorporating them into pre-existaht Egyptian deities such as Set, Sobek and Ptah.
No sign of any mention of YHWH, or anything approaching our concept of monotheism in what we've found at Avaris.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on December 21, 2017, 10:52:57 AM
Just found this paper whilst looking for something else. It concerns the "Sea Peoples", who became the Philistines. https://www.academia.edu/683111/The_Sea_Peoples_from_Cuneiform_Tablets_to_Carbon?auto=download&campaign=weekly_digest#
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on July 08, 2018, 10:19:08 AM
Spud: Been doing some stuff on the Second Intermediate period recently, and this link came up. It might interest you: http://etc.ancient.eu/interviews/egyptian-relations-canaan/
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on July 10, 2018, 12:55:32 PM
Spud: Been doing some stuff on the Second Intermediate period recently, and this link came up. It might interest you: http://etc.ancient.eu/interviews/egyptian-relations-canaan/
Thanks Jim, looks interesting. I will check it out.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 09, 2018, 11:50:25 PM
More stuff about the Delta - but a find which sheds light on an unbroken history of Egypt dating back a thousnd years before the Pharonic time (c4100 BC) This shows that remains can survive the chaotic flood and damp conditions of the Delta....and that, if remains such as THIS survived, thensurely 'slave camps' of putative captive populations should have left traces on a vastly more identifiable scale. It also shows that there was no flood in the last seven or so millenias which destroyed the cultures which would evolve to form the Nile civilisation. https://www.sciencealert.com/ancient-egypt-tell-el-samara-neolithic-village-5-000-bce-predate-pharaohs
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on October 06, 2018, 11:36:07 AM
More stuff about the Delta - but a find which sheds light on an unbroken history of Egypt dating back a thousnd years before the Pharonic time (c4100 BC) This shows that remains can survive the chaotic flood and damp conditions of the Delta....and that, if remains such as THIS survived, thensurely 'slave camps' of putative captive populations should have left traces on a vastly more identifiable scale. It also shows that there was no flood in the last seven or so millenias which destroyed the cultures which would evolve to form the Nile civilisation. https://www.sciencealert.com/ancient-egypt-tell-el-samara-neolithic-village-5-000-bce-predate-pharaohs

Just out of interest, do you know if that is bedrock those holes are bored into? What is the depth of the holes and what were they used for?

Not sure if Exodus mentions any slave camps. It seems that up until the start of their 'slavery' the Israelites had been normal citizens who had homes and land of their own. So they wouldn't need to be kept in camps, as they'd still have been living in these homes, just under intense pressure from the rest of the population.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on October 06, 2018, 12:26:29 PM
Just out of interest, do you know if that is bedrock those holes are bored into? What is the depth of the holes and what were they used for?

Not sure if Exodus mentions any slave camps. It seems that up until the start of their 'slavery' the Israelites had been normal citizens who had homes and land of their own. So they wouldn't need to be kept in camps, as they'd still have been living in these homes, just under intense pressure from the rest of the population.



Bedrock?
In the Delta? were bedrock used in the Delta in ancient times, it wouldbe a waste of time - the many tributaries of the Nile shifted constantly (hence the abandonment of Piramesse 'Ramses' arounf 1050 BC)
And as far as 'owning land'? When Egypt was controlled by one central authority, as in the New Kingdom, all land was owned either by the king or by a temple to which the king had granted it. people, even the higher ranks of nobility, held lands at the king or temple's discretion. There was but one exception - Dier-el-Medina near Luxor, which was an enclosed community for highly skilled artisans and craftsmen who worked in the royal necropolis or on temple projects.
Records show land - albeit only a house - being inherited through several generations by craftsmen...whose inheritance lasted only as long as their skills.
Any Delta settlement around 12-800 BC was owned by the state, or by the temple authorities of Ptah of Memphis, Re of Heliopolis, or Amun of Tanis, etc.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on October 06, 2018, 04:31:32 PM
So are you saying that it isn't rock?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on October 06, 2018, 08:46:46 PM
So are you saying that it isn't rock?
I don't know! But if it is rock, it would probably be compacted sandstone - the same that has been identified off Alexandria. If you're really interested in the complex geology of the Delta, try http://sp.lyellcollection.org/content/41/1/99
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Beyoncé Castle on January 24, 2019, 11:13:15 PM
In the general index, this thread is described as "Archaeologists Disco". The mind boggles.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 13, 2019, 07:35:22 AM
I wasn't aware that the Septuagint adds about 650 years in total to the ages of the descendants of Noah through Shem. This would allow about 500 years before the tower of Babel for the population to increase so that there enough people to build the first pyramid in 2450 BC.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 13, 2019, 09:11:59 AM
I wasn't aware that the Septuagint adds about 650 years in total to the ages of the descendants of Noah through Shem. This would allow about 500 years before the tower of Babel for the population to increase so that there enough people to build the first pyramid in 2450 BC.
   


Was that before or after the started the incredible Neolithic complex at Brodgar in Orkney, Stonehenge five centuries later in England, the town of Jericho in Palestine, the civilisations in Akkad, Ur, Sumer, North Eastern China, India, etc, which date to around the same time?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on September 13, 2019, 07:31:06 PM
I wasn't aware that the Septuagint adds about 650 years in total to the ages of the descendants of Noah through Shem. This would allow about 500 years before the tower of Babel for the population to increase so that there enough people to build the first pyramid in 2450 BC.

Oh, hadn't you heard? That problem was solved ages ago. It turns out that Genesis isn't literally true. We found out that the modern human has been around for possible 200,000 years.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 13, 2019, 08:30:43 PM
I wasn't aware that the Septuagint adds about 650 years in total to the ages of the descendants of Noah through Shem. This would allow about 500 years before the tower of Babel for the population to increase so that there enough people to build the first pyramid in 2450 BC.
   




Another wee point.
How log do you think it took a sophisticated administration system to evolve? A system which could build hundreds of boats capable of floating massive stone blocks downriver, unloading and transporting them? A system capable of sophisticated agricultural and catering management, breeding livestock, producing beer, bread, vegetables on an industrial scale? decades? Mopre like centuries.
And remember, the first pyramid was not that of the dyn IV king Khufu at Giza; it was that of Netjerikhet Djoser at Saqqara, eigght-odd years erlier - and that undertaking, with its' stone courtyard and buildings, was in many ways more sophisticated thahn the later model.
Even that wasn't the first major undertaking. Sixty years earlier still, in the riegn of Khasekhemwy, a massive structure surrounding his 'mastaba' tomb shows a degree of organisation and sophistication which indicates a very highly developed administration. So that pushes your dates back at least 160 years...assuming of course tyhat the administration in question developed out of thin air, which it manifestly did not.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 14, 2019, 09:29:20 AM
   




Another wee point.
How log do you think it took a sophisticated administration system to evolve? A system which could build hundreds of boats capable of floating massive stone blocks downriver, unloading and transporting them? A system capable of sophisticated agricultural and catering management, breeding livestock, producing beer, bread, vegetables on an industrial scale? decades? Mopre like centuries.
And remember, the first pyramid was not that of the dyn IV king Khufu at Giza; it was that of Netjerikhet Djoser at Saqqara, eigght-odd years erlier - and that undertaking, with its' stone courtyard and buildings, was in many ways more sophisticated thahn the later model.
Even that wasn't the first major undertaking. Sixty years earlier still, in the riegn of Khasekhemwy, a massive structure surrounding his 'mastaba' tomb shows a degree of organisation and sophistication which indicates a very highly developed administration. So that pushes your dates back at least 160 years...assuming of course tyhat the administration in question developed out of thin air, which it manifestly did not.
If I recall correctly, that chap Rohl thinks Egyptian chronology is off by about 200 years, so that by using his revised chronology the first pyramid is around 2450 BC, which would allow 500 years for the population to increase and for technology known from before the flood to be redeveloped.
The other assumption with this is that the limestone from which the pyramids were constructed was deposited in the flood. Maybe it was still soft and could be mixed with chemicals to harden it once poured into moulds? Solved, the riddle of how the pyramids were made!
https://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/are-pyramids-made-out-of-concrete-1/
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 14, 2019, 10:12:43 AM
If I recall correctly, that chap Rohl thinks Egyptian chronology is off by about 200 years, so that by using his revised chronology the first pyramid is around 2450 BC, which would allow 500 years for the population to increase and for technology known from before the flood to be redeveloped.
The other assumption with this is that the limestone from which the pyramids were constructed was deposited in the flood. Maybe it was still soft and could be mixed with chemicals to harden it once poured into moulds? Solved, the riddle of how the pyramids were made!
https://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/are-pyramids-made-out-of-concrete-1/
   






David Rohl's calculations are based with a Bible in one hand, a 1930's chronology in the other, balanced by speculation on hise forehead.
The dates of the Step Pyramid are anchored by carbon dating in the last five years. The same dating - by two different universities - gave 'anchor points' plus or minus fifty years that will verify the 'accepted chronology'. Thus we can be confident that the pyramids cannot have been more than fifty years plus or minus their construction dates -through science.
Add on the actual evidence of inscriptions giving latest possible regnal years, and you can narrow that down to plus or minus twenty years for the third dynasty. The margin of error decreases  with the years, leading to plus or minus ten years by the time of Tutankhamun, and three by the time of Sheshonq I (Biblical 'Shishak' )

There is not a reputable Egyptologist who will back up Rohl's 'new Chronology'.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 14, 2019, 09:36:37 PM
 Knew I'd find a link to this.
I can provide a link to the academic research as well.
It confirms that the 'accepted chronology' of Egypt is more or less correct.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10345875
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on September 16, 2019, 08:40:55 AM
 This just landed in my news feed. It sort of confirms the Egyptian texts concerning the origins of the Philistines. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190703150509.htm
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 19, 2019, 01:49:25 PM
This just landed in my news feed. It sort of confirms the Egyptian texts concerning the origins of the Philistines. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190703150509.htm
So Mizraim was the father of some Europeans, as well as Egyptians, then?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on September 19, 2019, 01:54:47 PM
Knew I'd find a link to this.
I can provide a link to the academic research as well.
It confirms that the 'accepted chronology' of Egypt is more or less correct.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10345875
Some samples more than 4500 years old, that is 2500 BC. So if the Flood was just over 3000 BC, that leaves about, say, 3 centuries until the tower of Babel then 2 centuries for Egypt to get started.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on December 28, 2019, 06:15:17 PM
 Not particularly related to the topic, but this gives an insight into what passed for diplomacy in the Levant and Israel in the eighth  century BC.
http://www.asor.org/anetoday/2019/12/Israelite-and-Judahite-Ambassadors-to-Assyria?fbclid=IwAR0fRVEC66S33BQ19GaXxIzH_dBgfQmCE_jxXHpD2UoG9CoIZPjnqjSPN1I
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on December 28, 2019, 06:26:05 PM
Some samples more than 4500 years old, that is 2500 BC. So if the Flood was just over 3000 BC, that leaves about, say, 3 centuries until the tower of Babel then 2 centuries for Egypt to get started.
Just noticed this....Sorry, Spud, but that's nonsense. We can clearly trace the development of what became a united Egypt around 3100 BC, to the three, then two, proto-states which created it. Even before then, we can trace the evolving cultures which led to the formation of settlements and towns along the Nile Valley from c7,000BC onward - and that process of evolving is not interrupted by any hiatus which would indicate a massive extinction of either humans or animals - indeed, given the finds at Nabta Playa, quite the reverse [- a cattle culture with early farming two thousand years earlier than we first thought - and that cattle culture was the basis for the Upper (Southern) Egyptian statelets. If you're interested in the predynastic settlement of the Nile Valley, have a look at https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:AARR.0000005518.81411.43
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 18, 2020, 07:31:57 PM
Just noticed this....Sorry, Spud, but that's nonsense. We can clearly trace the development of what became a united Egypt around 3100 BC, to the three, then two, proto-states which created it. Even before then, we can trace the evolving cultures which led to the formation of settlements and towns along the Nile Valley from c7,000BC onward - and that process of evolving is not interrupted by any hiatus which would indicate a massive extinction of either humans or animals - indeed, given the finds at Nabta Playa, quite the reverse [- a cattle culture with early farming two thousand years earlier than we first thought - and that cattle culture was the basis for the Upper (Southern) Egyptian statelets. If you're interested in the predynastic settlement of the Nile Valley, have a look at https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:AARR.0000005518.81411.43




I was looking at the first few chapters of Numbers, where it records how many males from each clan there were. It was strange that from a straightforward reading, over about 4 generations down to Moses and Aaron, Levi is said to have had about 8,000 descendents.  Something's afoot there. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 18, 2020, 07:49:35 PM



I was looking at the first few chapters of Numbers, where it records how many males from each clan there were. It was strange that from a straightforward reading, over about 4 generations down to Moses and Aaron, Levi is said to have had about 8,000 descendents.  Something's afoot there. Any ideas?
       


Since this has no link to the fact that not a single shred of evidence exists outside the (editede) Pentateuch, why ask here?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 18, 2020, 09:52:18 PM
       


Since this has no link to the fact that not a single shred of evidence exists outside the (editede) Pentateuch, why ask here?
I quoted your post to get your attention, sorry if it's off topic.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Beyoncé Castle on January 19, 2020, 07:34:54 AM



I was looking at the first few chapters of Numbers, where it records how many males from each clan there were. It was strange that from a straightforward reading, over about 4 generations down to Moses and Aaron, Levi is said to have had about 8,000 descendents.  Something's afoot there. Any ideas?
Odd, but ptobably not impossible. a man can have hundreds of children if he's got many wives and concubines, as powerful men in antiquity often did.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 19, 2020, 08:51:57 AM
Odd, but ptobably not impossible. a man can have hundreds of children if he's got many wives and concubines, as powerful men in antiquity often did.
So the odd thing is that Exodus 6:16-20 states that Moses and Aaron were Levi's great grandchildren. Thus in that particular line, there were four generations between the Levi going down to Egypt with Jacob, and Moses leaving Egypt at the Exodus.
Yet when we get to Numbers 3:27-28 we find that Kohath, Levi's second son and Moses' grandad, had 8,600 descendants when Moses counted them.
Good point about having many wives. That could explain the above. But crumbs, though!
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 19, 2020, 09:23:28 AM
I quoted your post to get your attention, sorry if it's off topic.
 



Oh, it interests me, Spud;
However, given that we only have the internal evidence of the Pentateuch for numbers, names, familial relationships, etc, and, given that it has already been shown that the historicity of the Pentateuch is suspect, and that many scholars accept it as having been at least heavily edited at the time of the Exile, I don't see the relevance of the passage in relation to hard evidence.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 19, 2020, 04:46:59 PM
 



Oh, it interests me, Spud;
However, given that we only have the internal evidence of the Pentateuch for numbers, names, familial relationships, etc, and, given that it has already been shown that the historicity of the Pentateuch is suspect, and that many scholars accept it as having been at least heavily edited at the time of the Exile, I don't see the relevance of the passage in relation to hard evidence.
Well if we can decide which of the two passages is correct (the one where Levi has at most a few hundred great grandchildren or the one where he has at the time of Moses 22,000 descendants) then we could correlate your archaeological findings appropriately.

For example, I came across one theory that the word in Numbers for 'thousands' should actually be translated 'chiefs'.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 19, 2020, 06:35:06 PM
Well if we can decide which of the two passages is correct (the one where Levi has at most a few hundred great grandchildren or the one where he has at the time of Moses 22,000 descendants) then we could correlate your archaeological findings appropriately.

For example, I came across one theory that the word in Numbers for 'thousands' should actually be translated 'chiefs'.
   



How can you correlate the numbers in the Pentateuch with the findings from archaeology when there ARE no findings from archaeology?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on January 19, 2020, 08:02:49 PM
Well if we can decide which of the two passages is correct (the one where Levi has at most a few hundred great grandchildren or the one where he has at the time of Moses 22,000 descendants) then we could correlate your archaeological findings appropriately.

For example, I came across one theory that the word in Numbers for 'thousands' should actually be translated 'chiefs'.

I don't understand why you are having difficulty with this "problem". There's no reason to suspect that either number given in the Pentateuch is correct. In fact, the only evidence anywhere that the Exodus happened comes from the Pentateuch (as far as I am aware). As soon as you admit the possibility that the Pentateuch is unreliable, that's it for the evidence.

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 21, 2020, 06:23:03 PM
How can you correlate the numbers in the Pentateuch with the findings from archaeology when there ARE no findings from archaeology?
Low numbers fits with no archaeological findings. However, the four-generation genealogy from Levi to Moses is in the same book, Exodus, as the estimated number of 600,000. So they are clearly serious about both.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 21, 2020, 06:36:06 PM
Low numbers fits with no archaeological findings. However, the four-generation genealogy from Levi to Moses is in the same book, Exodus, as the estimated number of 600,000. So they are clearly serious about both.
   




......or those who edited the Pentateuch were serious about editing it.
Remember, they were trying to preserve the integrety of a fragmented nation; bolstering numbers and 'amplification' of events, even relating events/places which did not happen at the time the editors placed them in - was a tool in their armament.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 22, 2020, 12:55:13 PM
......or those who edited the Pentateuch were serious about editing it.
Remember, they were trying to preserve the integrety of a fragmented nation; bolstering numbers and 'amplification' of events, even relating events/places which did not happen at the time the editors placed them in - was a tool in their armament.
This doesn't sound like something the people of God would do. When it says such and such an army had 400,000 men, this isn't an exact number but probably an estimation, and there isn't anything dishonest about rounding up. The numbers listed for the Israelites in the book of Numbers are exact though, and it would be deceitful to have invented them.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 22, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
This doesn't sound like something the people of God would do. When it says such and such an army had 400,000 men, this isn't an exact number but probably an estimation, and there isn't anything dishonest about rounding up. The numbers listed for the Israelites in the book of Numbers are exact though, and it would be deceitful to have invented them.
   


Whilst, of course, unique, the Israelites were typical of cultures of their time, Spud.
They exaggerated hugely.
As I've posted - frequently - on this thread, the numbers cannot add up. The population of the eastern Delta around 1000 was less than 400,000, never mind the whole of Egypt, which cannot have had more than two million.
You cannot rely on any numbers here; you might as well rely on Ramesses II's boast of sending twenty thousand chariots to the battle of Qadesh and winning a crushing victory against the Hittites, when the reality was, at most, six hundred  chariots and the result was more like a score draw.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on January 22, 2020, 07:32:23 PM
Low numbers fits with no archaeological findings. However, the four-generation genealogy from Levi to Moses is in the same book, Exodus, as the estimated number of 600,000. So they are clearly serious about both.

Are you claiming the 600,000 figure is accurate?

A group that size could not possibly move about without leaving archaeological evidence. For example, assume everybody lived to be exactly 70 years of age (three score years and ten). That would mean twenty three people dying every day. Where are the bodies?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 22, 2020, 08:49:00 PM
In case you were under the impression that the Sinai desert was some vast unpopulated no mans land, Spud, just ripe for a vast nomadic tribe to camp in, then think again. From before the Pyramid age, trade routes were common in the area,. By the Middle Kingdom -c2100-1900, Egypt already had trading colonies at Byblos, reached by guarded trade routes. By the Nwe Kingdom, Egypt ruled the area right up to, and including, bits of what is now Turkey. A well policed series of military outposts and forts built by the likes of Amenhotep II, Thutmose III, Sety I, Ramesses II,even Shoshenq I, are well attested. Here's a site linking to Chicago uni excavations in the area. It's out of date, though, as a massive fortress complex was discovered only last year, with evidence of occupation from Thutmose III untill Ramesses VI -three centuries and more, covering the time when Exodus is set. https://www.jstor.org/stable/25066962?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnvISGiJjnAhWDtXEKHXFXCWc4ChAWMAF6BAgJEAE&seq=1
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Harrowby Hall on January 25, 2020, 10:59:56 AM
Are you claiming the 600,000 figure is accurate?

 Where are the bodies?

And where is th coprolite?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: jeremyp on January 25, 2020, 02:18:00 PM
And where is th coprolite?

Even worse. That 600,000 discounts the children and livestock and other hangers on.We must be talking about more than  million individuals living things.

And yet there is no trace of them.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on January 27, 2020, 04:29:46 PM
In case you were under the impression that the Sinai desert was some vast unpopulated no mans land, Spud, just ripe for a vast nomadic tribe to camp in, then think again. From before the Pyramid age, trade routes were common in the area,. By the Middle Kingdom -c2100-1900, Egypt already had trading colonies at Byblos, reached by guarded trade routes. By the Nwe Kingdom, Egypt ruled the area right up to, and including, bits of what is now Turkey. A well policed series of military outposts and forts built by the likes of Amenhotep II, Thutmose III, Sety I, Ramesses II,even Shoshenq I, are well attested. Here's a site linking to Chicago uni excavations in the area. It's out of date, though, as a massive fortress complex was discovered only last year, with evidence of occupation from Thutmose III untill Ramesses VI -three centuries and more, covering the time when Exodus is set. https://www.jstor.org/stable/25066962?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnvISGiJjnAhWDtXEKHXFXCWc4ChAWMAF6BAgJEAE&seq=1

The Hyksos dynasty might have been a period when Egyptian hegemony over Canaan would have lapsed, making it theoretically possible for Israel to invade. Wasn't the Exodus traditionally associated with the Hyksos (Josephus etc)?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on January 27, 2020, 05:36:50 PM
The Hyksos dynasty might have been a period when Egyptian hegemony over Canaan would have lapsed, making it theoretically possible for Israel to invade. Wasn't the Exodus traditionally associated with the Hyksos (Josephus etc)?
If you trawl through this thread, you'll note that: 1) the Hyksos never ruled the whole of Egypt, therefotre there was no vizierate of the whole of Egypt for Joseph to occupy. 2) Even the bit of Egypt the Hyksos controlled was not unified. Two, three - even at one point four kinglets ruling parts of Lower Egypt simultaneously...we found a whole 'dynasty' ruling from Abydos, calling themselves 'Lord of the Two lands' but who were less than local chieftains at best. Evejn the areas controlled by the Hyksos were never totally secure, and relied on importing goods from the Levant and trade with the princelings who would later form the Theban Kingdom which would expel the Hyksos. The seventy or so years whehn the Hyksos actually ruled were known for erratic Nile flooding - too low or too high, never really stable, meaning that the storehouses - in the temples - which held the grain for emergencies - were certainly never in a position to export to other area, nor dole out supplies to needy petitioners. Famine in Egypt is well known; surfiet is not. Whenever the Exodus happenhed, you can rule out the 'hyksos period straight away. Besides this, given their religious practices - a syncretism between imported Canaanite deities such as Reshep, Astarte, Ball, etc, and the Eastern desert Egyptian deity St, the las thing the Hyksos would tolerate would have been some monotheists.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on February 03, 2020, 02:23:13 PM
 An anchor...well, my username IS 'Anchorman'. This looks to me to date to around the reigns of Thutmose II, Hatshepsut or Thutmose III, in the early to mid Eighteenth dynasty. I'm comparing it with similar examples from the British Museum and the Louvre. It shows the expansionist policy of the eighteenth dynasty kings AS THEY CREATED AN Empire in the Turkey/Syria/Palestine area. It also indicates the Egyptian hegemony over what is now Israel around 1550 BC; showing that no distinctive non-Egyptianised culture would be allowed to thrive under the Thutmosid dynasty. https://khentiamentiu.blogspot.com/2020/02/mysterious-egyptian-artifact-from.html?spref=fb&fbclid=IwAR1DUYVyHkCiY8GzlVvH82lZcSx-qx8wpTG4a-QilpfIfgzly_ehGqL6G9g
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on June 29, 2020, 03:08:13 PM
An anchor...well, my username IS 'Anchorman'. This looks to me to date to around the reigns of Thutmose II, Hatshepsut or Thutmose III, in the early to mid Eighteenth dynasty. I'm comparing it with similar examples from the British Museum and the Louvre. It shows the expansionist policy of the eighteenth dynasty kings AS THEY CREATED AN Empire in the Turkey/Syria/Palestine area. It also indicates the Egyptian hegemony over what is now Israel around 1550 BC; showing that no distinctive non-Egyptianised culture would be allowed to thrive under the Thutmosid dynasty. https://khentiamentiu.blogspot.com/2020/02/mysterious-egyptian-artifact-from.html?spref=fb&fbclid=IwAR1DUYVyHkCiY8GzlVvH82lZcSx-qx8wpTG4a-QilpfIfgzly_ehGqL6G9g
Not related to this post, but while browsing various verses relating to 'bond service' I came across this:

"So Joshua did this and delivered them from the hands of the Israelites, and they did not kill the Gibeonites. 27On that day he made them woodcutters and water carriers, as they are to this day, for the congregation of the LORD and for the altar at the place He would choose." Joshua 9:27

Here is the Pulpit Commentary's note on that verse:

Quote
And for the altar (see note on ver. 21). In the place which he should choose. This phrase, and especially the use of the imperfect tense, implies that Solomon's temple was not yet built. The ark of God, and the tabernacle which contained it, had several resting places before its final deposition in the temple (see note on Joshua 24:1). And the grammatical construction just referred to also implies that there was more than one place. It is also clear, from the language of 2 Samuel 21:1-6, that this narrative was already in existence when that chapter was penned. It is equally clear that the author of this passage knew nothing of that (see Introduction).
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/pulpit/joshua/9.htm

So would you agree that the book of Joshua was written before Solomon's temple was built?
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on June 29, 2020, 07:16:32 PM
Not related to this post, but while browsing various verses relating to 'bond service' I came across this: "So Joshua did this and delivered them from the hands of the Israelites, and they did not kill the Gibeonites. 27On that day he made them woodcutters and water carriers, as they are to this day, for the congregation of the LORD and for the altar at the place He would choose." Joshua 9:27 Here is the Pulpit Commentary's note on that verse: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/pulpit/joshua/9.htm So would you agree that the book of Joshua was written before Solomon's temple was built?
Since I have already stated - on numerous occasions - that I believe the Pentateuch - and probably Jusges and Joshua - were edited or rewritten during the exile, we cannot anchor those events in history. Only with Samuel and Kings can we glimpse something approaching history, when the events in Israel/Judah coincide with events outside their borders.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on July 01, 2020, 08:19:16 AM
Since I have already stated - on numerous occasions - that I believe the Pentateuch - and probably Jusges and Joshua - were edited or rewritten during the exile, we cannot anchor those events in history. Only with Samuel and Kings can we glimpse something approaching history, when the events in Israel/Judah coincide with events outside their borders.
Sure. There is more to dating the book of Joshua than just one verse, but that verse might be evidence that the particular passage about the Gibeonites was written earlier than the time of the Kings.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on July 01, 2020, 08:37:29 AM
Sure. There is more to dating the book of Joshua than just one verse, but that verse might be evidence that the particular passage about the Gibeonites was written earlier than the time of the Kings.
   



Why?
Where's your evidence, either in documentary or archaeology, other than the Scriptures?
You've been shown that, up untill the time of the kings, there is little or no evidence to confirm the historicity of the text.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Spud on July 01, 2020, 04:11:47 PM
   



Why?

Because the author of Joshua 9:27 refers to the permanent place for the altar as if it hadn't yet been chosen.
Quote
Where's your evidence, either in documentary or archaeology, other than the Scriptures?
I only have various ideas based on potential 'windows' for the Exodus. You have rejected all the evidence I have given. But the above verse suggests at least part of Joshua was written in the form we have it. There is also 1:8, a reference to "this book of the Law" (Genesis-Deuteronomy) suggesting that those books existed at the time of writing of Joshua.

Quote
You've been shown that, up untill the time of the kings, there is little or no evidence to confirm the historicity of the text.
I know you would like extra-biblical evidence to confirm its historicity - who wouldn't? But the Jews believed that God rescued their ancestors from Egypt not on the basis of evidence, but by faith.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Littleroses on July 01, 2020, 04:44:33 PM
Verifiable evidence is much more reliable than faith, which can lead you up the garden path.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on July 01, 2020, 04:50:44 PM
Because the author of Joshua 9:27 refers to the permanent place for the altar as if it hadn't yet been chosen. I only have various ideas based on potential 'windows' for the Exodus. You have rejected all the evidence I have given. But the above verse suggests at least part of Joshua was written in the form we have it. There is also 1:8, a reference to "this book of the Law" (Genesis-Deuteronomy) suggesting that those books existed at the time of writing of Joshua.
I know you would like extra-biblical evidence to confirm its historicity - who wouldn't? But the Jews believed that God rescued their ancestors from Egypt not on the basis of evidence, but by faith.

Spud;
This thread was started by Sass to show a putative chariot discovered in the Red sea...evidence which is simply hogwash.
Whilst faith is, of course, vital, the fact - repeat, fact - that there is no evidence to confirm the events portrayed in all the books of the Pentateuch must make them very unreliable as far as real historic events goes.
You bang on about numbers, tribes, stats, etc, containd within the first seven books of the OT - yet t5he Bible is not evidence for the Bible, Spud - far from it; indeed there is much to show that what we now have may not be what was written down before the Exile.
Since there is no extra-Biblical evidence to confirm, or even to locate, the events described, they cannot be examined scientifically or with the eye of the historian.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on July 01, 2020, 07:57:09 PM

Spud;
This thread was started by Sass to show a putative chariot discovered in the Red sea...evidence which is simply hogwash.
Whilst faith is, of course, vital, the fact - repeat, fact - that there is no evidence to confirm the events portrayed in all the books of the Pentateuch must make them very unreliable as far as real historic events goes.
You bang on about numbers, tribes, stats, etc, containd within the first seven books of the OT - yet t5he Bible is not evidence for the Bible, Spud - far from it; indeed there is much to show that what we now have may not be what was written down before the Exile.
Since there is no extra-Biblical evidence to confirm, or even to locate, the events described, they cannot be examined scientifically or with the eye of the historian.


I am no biblical scholar, but whilst I was in the British Library doing some research into the history of my religion and some practices within that religion I came upon the belief that Exodus 22:18 - Thou shalt not allow a witch to live - was, in fact, a deliberate re-writing of the original OT by King James VI/I whose wife Anne of Denmark's ship suffered a severe storm on her way to England.

When the Septuagint, the translation from Hebrew into Greek was taking place the scholars discovered that Hebrew was a seriously colloquial language and some words might have more than half-a-dozen meanings, contradicting each other.

In Exodus 22:18 the word translated aS 'WITCH' in the Greek at the time of translation meant 'a maker of potions'. This was used as it was the closest the Greeks could come to the word used in the Hebrew bible which had no direct translation into the Hebrew of the time of translation so the Hebrew word meaning 'someone who communed with spirits' was deemed the closest possible and was translated as 'a maker of potions'.

James was a rabid anti-witch fanatic and was convinced that Francis, 5th Earl of Bothwell, kept an active witch coven in East Lothian and that they had raised a storm to kill both the King and his Queen, thus, in the King James version, 'poisoner' became 'witch' to give James' execution of 300 'witches' for their part in the 'plot' was sanctioned by God.

This is not my version of events but that of a Rabbi who I went to for help with the translation puzzle.

How accurate is the translation in the rest of the King James version? I don't know - but if this is the case with 22:18 who knows what else was mixed up in the Hebrew/Greek translation of the Septuagint?   

 
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on July 01, 2020, 09:21:26 PM
I am no biblical scholar, but whilst I was in the British Library doing some research into the history of my religion and some practices within that religion I came upon the belief that Exodus 22:18 - Thou shalt not allow a witch to live - was, in fact, a deliberate re-writing of the original OT by King James VI/I whose wife Anne of Denmark's ship suffered a severe storm on her way to England.

When the Septuagint, the translation from Hebrew into Greek was taking place the scholars discovered that Hebrew was a seriously colloquial language and some words might have more than half-a-dozen meanings, contradicting each other.

In Exodus 22:18 the word translated aS 'WITCH' in the Greek at the time of translation meant 'a maker of potions'. This was used as it was the closest the Greeks could come to the word used in the Hebrew bible which had no direct translation into the Hebrew of the time of translation so the Hebrew word meaning 'someone who communed with spirits' was deemed the closest possible and was translated as 'a maker of potions'.

James was a rabid anti-witch fanatic and was convinced that Francis, 5th Earl of Bothwell, kept an active witch coven in East Lothian and that they had raised a storm to kill both the King and his Queen, thus, in the King James version, 'poisoner' became 'witch' to give James' execution of 300 'witches' for their part in the 'plot' was sanctioned by God.

This is not my version of events but that of a Rabbi who I went to for help with the translation puzzle.

How accurate is the translation in the rest of the King James version? I don't know - but if this is the case with 22:18 who knows what else was mixed up in the Hebrew/Greek translation of the Septuagint?   

 
     
Most Scholars, whilst recognising the poetry of the KJV, won't use it as an an accurate translation.
James VI positively influenced the translators in order to bolster his 'divine right of kings' idea.
This negates its usefulness when trying to be accurate.
Of course, given the shifting sands of English as a language, the translators have had to 'move with the times' when dealing with modernity - but on the whole, have kept to the sense of the original, giving footnotes where necessary.
I can't believe the Hebrew concept of witchcraft and that of seventeenth century 'thinking man' were the same.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on July 02, 2020, 09:51:43 AM
     
I can't believe the Hebrew concept of witchcraft and that of seventeenth-century 'thinking man' was the same.


I know I am, yet again, showing my ignorance but, in what way?

Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Anchorman on July 02, 2020, 10:23:54 AM
I know I am, yet again, showing my ignorance but, in what way?


   
Well, if, as most assume, the Pentateuch was edited  during exile, what was 'witchcraft'? Much of the seventeenth century persecution was aimed at 'wise women' who were little more than herbalists, with much more being spurious add on to 'get rid' of annoying or feuding neighbours.
Healing in the sixth century BC would have been bound up with religion; my knowledge of Assyrio-Babylonian religious healing is scanty at best, but if it was anything like that of Egypt, it depended on available drugs, unlikely ingredients, statues and recitation of prayers.
Whether that was 'witchcraft' - Wicca - I'm not sure.
We know little of Hebrew medical practice at this  time; presumably it was similar to other cultures of the day.
Necromancy, however, is a bit unusual - most of the cultures in that area were happy that the soul in whatever form(s) left this plane of existence and only returned to scoff whichever funeral feast or offerings the relatives left in the tomb or outside it.
That the concept of raising spirits was considered witchcraft was almost unique to the Hebrew culture, and had no parallel in Babylon as far as I know.
Title: Re: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red
Post by: Owlswing on July 02, 2020, 11:43:34 AM
   
Well, if, as most assume, the Pentateuch was edited during exile, what was 'witchcraft'? Much of the seventeenth-century persecution was aimed at 'wise women' who were little more than herbalists, with much more being spurious add on to 'get rid' of annoying or feuding neighbours.

Healing in the sixth century BC would have been bound up with religion; my knowledge of Assyria-Babylonian religious healing is scanty at best, but if it was anything like that of Egypt, it depended on available drugs, unlikely ingredients, statues and recitation of prayers.

Whether that was 'witchcraft' - Wicca - I'm not sure.

We know little of Hebrew medical practice at this  time; presumably, it was similar to other cultures of the day.

Necromancy, however, is a bit unusual - most of the cultures in that area were happy that the soul in whatever form(s) left this plane of existence and only returned to scoff whichever funeral feast or offerings the relatives left in the tomb or outside it.

That the concept of raising spirits was considered witchcraft was almost unique to the Hebrew culture, and had no parallel in Babylon as far as I know.


Sorry, but I was merely pointing out that 22:18 in English is a translation that is probably highly inaccurate. Nothing more than that, and thus it is quite possible that there are (many?) more incidents of inaccurate translation for the same reason. So, the Bible in English may bear little resemblance to the Bible, in places, in either Greek or Hebrew.

As to the rest, I am well aware of the nature of the witch-hunts of the 14th to 17th centuries, referred to by some witches as The Burning Times, having been given the task of writing as essay, 40,000 words of it, on the matter as my 'Year-and-a-day' task prior to my initiation into my Coven.

As to your mention of Wicca, Wicca did not exist until Gerald B Gardner invented it in the 1950's, and gave it a faked history to give it authenticity. His followers still claim Wicca (capital W) is the only true path of witchcraft and require that witches who do not follow the Gardnerian Rules refer to themselves with a lower-case w and are quite forceful in their methods of dealing with those who break the 'Rule'!