Religion and Ethics Forum

Religion and Ethics Discussion => Jewish Topic => Topic started by: trippymonkey on July 28, 2017, 03:28:29 PM

Title: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: trippymonkey on July 28, 2017, 03:28:29 PM
WELLL It seems like more BS surrounding this 'infallible' religion & book..... Whatcha all feel ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/bible-canaanites-wiped-out-old-testament-israelites-lebanon-descendants-discovered-science-dna-a7862936.html
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: floo on July 28, 2017, 03:31:08 PM
Whoops, god didn't do a very good job of getting rid of the Canaanites if that is the case.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: trippymonkey on July 28, 2017, 03:34:19 PM
INDEED !?!?!?
Very sloppy work to be sure, eh ???
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: DaveM on July 28, 2017, 03:50:51 PM
INDEED !?!?!?
Very sloppy work to be sure, eh ???
Perhaps not so sloppy after all.  Quote from Judges 3:1-6

Now these are the nations that the Lord left, to test Israel by them, that is, all in Israel who had not experienced all the wars in Canaan. It was only in order that the generations of the people of Israel might know war, to teach war to those who had not known it before. These are the nations: the five lords of the Philistines and all the Canaanites and the Sidonians and the Hivites who lived on Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal-hermon as far as Lebo-hamath. They were for the testing of Israel, to know whether Israel would obey the commandments of the Lord, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. So the people of Israel lived among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. And their daughters they took to themselves for wives, and their own daughters they gave to their sons, and they served their gods.       
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: trippymonkey on July 28, 2017, 03:58:11 PM
OH DEAR.
I can so easily see you're one of those apologists for the Bible ?!!?!?

KNOW WAR - TEACH WAR ?!!?!?
WTF ?????
This ridiculous book is dragging ITSELF down the sewers !!!!
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Udayana on July 28, 2017, 04:03:41 PM
WELLL It seems like more BS surrounding this 'infallible' religion & book..... Whatcha all feel ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/bible-canaanites-wiped-out-old-testament-israelites-lebanon-descendants-discovered-science-dna-a7862936.html

hmm .. I find the effort to relate the study to bible mythology rather bizarre  as the only mention of Israel in the paper is:

Quote
This suggests that people from the highly differ-
entiated urban culture on the Levant coast and inland peo-
ple with different modes of subsistence were nevertheless
genetically similar, supporting previous reports that the
different cultural groups who inhabited the Levant during
the Bronze Age, such as the Ammonites, Moabites, Israel-
ites, and Phoenicians, each achieved their own cultural
identities but all shared a common genetic and ethnic
root with Canaanites.

So, genetically, we are unable to tell "Israelites" from "Canaanites" anyway.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Anchorman on July 28, 2017, 04:08:13 PM
Since most scholars - even Biblical scholars - would accept that the Pentateuch has been edited - severely - since the sixth century, its' value as history is negated (not so its' value as theology) Most archaeologists have realised the situation in bronze age Palestine from c 1380-1200 for many decades - the warring superpowers of Egypt/Mitanni/Naharin and Hatti vied for suzreignty over the statelets for centuries. The Canaanites formed a confederacy with other tribes - including Mycenaen Greeks and Phonecians - to menace the Mediterranian coast in the twelfth century. The Egyptian name for them was "Palestinu" -Sea peoples. Recognise the derivation of the name, anyone?
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: DaveM on July 28, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
OH DEAR.
I can so easily see you're one of those apologists for the Bible ?!!?!?

KNOW WAR - TEACH WAR ?!!?!?
WTF ?????
This ridiculous book is dragging ITSELF down the sewers !!!!
I rest my case and claim first prize.  :)
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: SusanDoris on July 28, 2017, 04:31:10 PM
Nice link. Gradually, science evidence replaces myth.  A pity it doesn't work faster.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: DaveM on July 28, 2017, 04:35:50 PM
Since most scholars - even Biblical scholars - would accept that the Pentateuch has been edited - severely - since the sixth century, its' value as history is negated (not so its' value as theology) Most archaeologists have realised the situation in bronze age Palestine from c 1380-1200 for many decades - the warring superpowers of Egypt/Mitanni/Naharin and Hatti vied for suzreignty over the statelets for centuries. The Canaanites formed a confederacy with other tribes - including Mycenaen Greeks and Phonecians - to menace the Mediterranian coast in the twelfth century. The Egyptian name for them was "Palestinu" -Sea peoples. Recognise the derivation of the name, anyone?
Just out of interest.  Would the above also apply to the Book of Judges?  Do most scholars also take the view that it has been heavily edited?  If so what are the reasons for their views?  Thanks
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: floo on July 28, 2017, 05:16:22 PM
Perhaps not so sloppy after all.  Quote from Judges 3:1-6

Now these are the nations that the Lord left, to test Israel by them, that is, all in Israel who had not experienced all the wars in Canaan. It was only in order that the generations of the people of Israel might know war, to teach war to those who had not known it before. These are the nations: the five lords of the Philistines and all the Canaanites and the Sidonians and the Hivites who lived on Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal-hermon as far as Lebo-hamath. They were for the testing of Israel, to know whether Israel would obey the commandments of the Lord, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. So the people of Israel lived among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. And their daughters they took to themselves for wives, and their own daughters they gave to their sons, and they served their gods.     

Your god is a psycho if any of that had credibility.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Anchorman on July 28, 2017, 07:18:18 PM
Just out of interest.  Would the above also apply to the Book of Judges?  Do most scholars also take the view that it has been heavily edited?  If so what are the reasons for their views?  Thanks

TBH, I haven't checked.
However, assuming a putative migration -exodus in Egypt sometime between c1380 and 1200 - which allows time for a kingdom to be set up - which is confirmed both in Kings and in extra-Biblical sources, then, if the Pentateuch were accurate history, the failure to mention Mitanni, Naharin, the Phoenician-Mycaenina-Canaan 'alliance', the coastal hiatus throughout the area, are glaring, ov
bvious ommissions.

By the time of the Judges and the later divided kingdom, Naharin and Mitanni had ceased to function, Hatti was hopelessly divided and Egypt was weakened, divided and on a long spiral downhill.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Anchorman on July 29, 2017, 10:17:50 AM
And, as for the Canaanites? They're still here! http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/summer-2017/article/modern-day-lebanese-descend-from-the-canaanites-suggests-genetic-study
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Phyllis Tyne on July 29, 2017, 05:40:07 PM
Nice link. Gradually, science evidence replaces myth.  A pity it doesn't work faster.
It's a pity it seems to let new atheist hyperbole unscathed.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Alien on August 02, 2017, 07:02:05 PM
So basically the bible doesn't teach that the Canaanites were wiped out by the Israelites then. Pity the various newspapers who misreported the bible didn't check up. Not surprised though.

Hiya everyone.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: jeremyp on August 02, 2017, 07:19:54 PM
hmm .. I find the effort to relate the study to bible mythology rather bizarre  as the only mention of Israel in the paper is:

So, genetically, we are unable to tell "Israelites" from "Canaanites" anyway.
Indeed, the true significance is that it corroborates the archaeology in that there never was an Israelite invasion of Canaan and that the Jews were just another tribe that lived in the area.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Alien on August 03, 2017, 10:55:56 AM
Indeed, the true significance is that it corroborates the archaeology in that there never was an Israelite invasion of Canaan and that the Jews were just another tribe that lived in the area.
Really? I've seen that claim. Would you kindly link to the website which convinced you this conclusion is true (if it was a website). Ta.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: floo on August 03, 2017, 11:12:17 AM
The Jewish authors of the OT wanted it to appear their tribe was chosen by their god to be more important than any other!
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 03, 2017, 11:27:05 AM
Really? I've seen that claim. Would you kindly link to the website which convinced you this conclusion is true (if it was a website). Ta.
Nice to see you.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Anchorman on August 03, 2017, 01:39:40 PM
The Jewish authors of the OT wanted it to appear their tribe was chosen by their god to be more important than any other!


Given the times and places of the authors of the various texts which made up the OT, that is a sweeping generalisation.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Alien on August 05, 2017, 04:53:57 PM
Nice to see you.
Cheers. You too.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: jeremyp on August 05, 2017, 11:36:39 PM
Really? I've seen that claim. Would you kindly link to the website which convinced you this conclusion is true (if it was a website). Ta.
I suggest you try The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Spud on August 06, 2017, 04:11:21 AM
The Amarna tablets are interesting. They speak of an invasion of Canaan by 'the Habiru' whom some think were the Hebrews.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Anchorman on August 06, 2017, 09:23:35 AM
The Amarna tablets are interesting. They speak of an invasion of Canaan by 'the Habiru' whom some think were the Hebrews.
And that 'some' would be wrong, having little knowledge of the lingyuistic variations in the cuneform of the Assyrian, Mittanian, Hittites and Egyptian. Those would be the same 'some' who equate Akhenaten with some monotheist proto-messiah - or even with Joseph or Moses. Three superb books on the period, written in the past decade, give a very good overview of the situation, and the last two analyse the Amarna letters. "Akhenaten: Egypt's false prophet" by Nicholas Reeves, and "Amarna Sunrise" and its' sequal "Amarna Sunset" both by Aidan Dodson.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Harrowby Hall on August 06, 2017, 09:42:46 AM
Would somebody explain to me why this is being discussed in the Christian Section of this forum? This has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

Why don't the mods move it to the Jewish section where it belongs?
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Alien on August 07, 2017, 10:15:17 PM
I suggest you try The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein.
I read that a few years ago. Have a butcher's at http://denverseminary.edu/resources/news-and-articles/the-bible-unearthed/
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Alien on August 07, 2017, 10:16:23 PM
Would somebody explain to me why this is being discussed in the Christian Section of this forum? This has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

Why don't the mods move it to the Jewish section where it belongs?
Well, it is in the Christian Old Testament, though here in the Jewish section is also appropriate.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: jeremyp on August 08, 2017, 08:01:28 PM
I read that a few years ago. Have a butcher's at http://denverseminary.edu/resources/news-and-articles/the-bible-unearthed/
I don't really hope for an unbiased examination at a web site called the Denver Seminary, but I'll give it a go.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: jeremyp on August 08, 2017, 08:21:52 PM
I read that a few years ago. Have a butcher's at http://denverseminary.edu/resources/news-and-articles/the-bible-unearthed/

Yep, as I thought, the main problem with the article is it is an appeal to what is possible rather than what is possible.

The article also confuses the dating of the events of Genesis with the claimed date of writing the events and is occasionally self contradictory. To pick one low hanging fruit:

Quote
Even if the number of Israelites was considerably smaller than 600, 000 warriors, it would be impossible for the Israelites to pass through the desert without a trace (pp. 62-63) [claims The Bible Unearthed]. However, that is exactly what many tribes have done for millennia. The only traces of purely nomadic peoples are group burial sites, religious memorials, and written inscriptions.

So the article claims that nomadic people leave no trace but also claims they leave burial sites, religious memorials and written inscriptions. Which is it? In any case, if the Israelites had been in the wilderness for 40 years, surely some people would have been buried and they weren't exactly shy about building altars - at least not according to the Bible.



Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: Spud on August 11, 2017, 08:05:07 PM
INDEED !?!?!?
Very sloppy work to be sure, eh ???
Joshua 21:43

And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. 44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
Title: Re: Canaanites NOT destroyed 'utterly' ?!?!!?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 11, 2017, 08:18:16 PM
 :o :o ::) ::)