Government money for church maintenance

[Roses]

I'm aware of it, of course, but we were spared it in my church when I was a child.

Lucky you, I assume you weren't unfortunate enough to be forced to attend a Pentecostal church, as I was.

[ProfessorDavey]

and full rates for church and hall.

No you don't - from the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act 1956:

'Exemption of churches, etc. from rates.
(1)No non-domestic rate shall be levied on any premises to the extent that they consist of—
(a)a building occupied by a religious body and used for the purpose of religious worship;
(b)a church hall, chapel hall or similar premises used in connection with a building such as is referred to in paragraph (a) above for the purposes of the religious body which occupies that building; or
(c)any premises occupied by a religious body and used by it—
(i)for carrying out administrative or other activities relating to the organisation of the conduct of religious worship in a building such as is referred to in paragraph (a) above; or
(ii)as an office or for office purposes, or for purposes ancillary to its use as an office or for office purposes.'

Just as in England churches in Scotland are completely exempt from business rates, which applies to other non-domestic premises. Indeed you wont even find churches on the Valuation Agency list of properties with rateable value.

[ProfessorDavey]

In return for the tax rebates, we provide services to the community which far exceed them; hall space for community groups at little or no charge; food bank, lunch club, nursery group at less than a quarter of the rate charged by a private group - with no indoctrination, obviously.

So do all sorts of other charitable and community organisations, and their 'bang per buck' in terms of overall income and its proportion spent on such community activities will be way higher than yours as they are expending the vast majority of their income on supporting the provision of worship, which, lets face it, is the primary purpose of a church - all these other aspects are secondary.

Yet, of course, all these other charitable and community organisations will have to pay business rates on their premises (perhaps with a charitable reduction, but not to zero) yet the church is completely exempt.

If you want to support a food bank, give your money to a charity whose primary purpose is to provide a food bank, as they will put probably 80-90p in the £ toward that (the rest being administrative and fundraising costs) don't give your money to a church where most of that money will be sucked up by expenditure that has nothing to do with those broader community goals, albeit with a few pence of trickle down per £.

[Anchorman]

Perhaps you haven't looked hard enough: https://www.bios.org.uk/downloads/biosgran.pdf I know this document is largely England focused but I find it hard to believe that things are so different in Scotland. And again I come back to the issue of bespoke tax breaks - compared to a community Arts Base using exactly the same building and with the same obligations on preserving heritage a church is likely to be about £10k better off a year due to being completely exempt from business rates.

Trust mer, we have indeed looked 'hard enough' - exhausivly, in fact. "The gulag" - 121 George Street, Edinburgh - CofS HQ - has invwestigated all options north of the Border. As for tax breaks? Again, the situation here is different. Yes, each congregation is registered with OSCR (The Scottish charity bods). Dependant on the local authority tules, churches are subject to full water rates. Like all charities )religious or otherwise) they enjoy exemption from business rates - unless that charity is a profit making set up. Some churches run self-help businesses to get homeless back into work - since they do so in their own premises, and, despite all revernue being ploughed back into the homeless charity (run in conjunction with Shelter Scotland) they have to pay full business rates. The Kirk's law department threw a wobbly over that.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dependant on the local authority tules, churches are subject to full water rates.

I wasn't talking about water rates, I was talking about business rates.

Like all charities )religious or otherwise) they enjoy exemption from business rates - unless that charity is a profit making set up.

Factually incorrect - charities are eligible for business rates relief of up to 80%, and that may not cover parts of the building that may be deemed to be 'commercial' in operation, for example a cafe or shop. By contrast churches are completely exempt from business rates - there isn't even a mechanism to charge them as churches and their ancillary buildings aren't even on the VOAs ratings list. So not only would a church not pay a penny in business rates while other charities may only get up to 80% rebate, a cafe in a church building, or a gift shop in a cathedral, for example would be completely business rates free, while a cafe or a gift shop in a museum run by a charity might incur full business rates.

[ProfessorDavey]

... nursery group at less than a quarter of the rate charged by a private group ...

Really?!?

Given that most most church hall nurseries are only open for a few hours and there is government funding so that parents receive 15 hours a week (16 hour per week I think in Scotland) in nursery free, then I'm struggling to see how that free provision in your nursery can less 'less than a quarter of the rate charged by a private group' which will also, of course, be free.

And how exactly is that linked to your church building. Maybe, as you claim you provide the space free to that group, but seeing as the main costs (about 80-90%) for a nursery is staff costs then the cost of rent makes very little difference to the amount a nursery needs to charges (and see above they have to provide 15-16 hours a week free to parents, with government funding).

Now perhaps that reason the costs are low is because it is run by volunteers (that would certain reduce running costs massively) but if so why has that anything to do with the church - those volunteers could run the nursery anyway (and indeed many do).