What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?

[jeremyp]

Never said experts need to be ignored, I discount their evidence for reasons already given, the predictions on previous issues similar to Brexit.

The FT polled over a hundred economic experts. Mor than 70% said leaving the EU would damage the economy and only 7% said that we would be better off by leaving the EU.

Do you discount the evidence of more than 70 economic experts? In your answer bear in mind that their predictions seem to be coming true right now.

[Nearly Sane]

Never said experts need to be ignored, I discount their evidence for reasons already given, the predictions on previous issues similar to Brexit.

Never claimed you mentioned organisations I presumed you meant what Davey has previously cited.

My post doesn't state you did say experts could be ignored. Indeed it specifically contrasts up your position to Gove's.

As to the second part here is post in reply to me.


'Its impossible to do analysis in economics as well as we can do it in other disciplines. All of these organisations you cite have a neo-liberal agenda are you a neo-liberal?'


So which organisations did I cite?

[jakswan]

My post doesn't state you did say experts could be ignored. Indeed it specifically contrasts up your position to Gove's.

As to the second part here is post in reply to me.

'Its impossible to do analysis in economics as well as we can do it in other disciplines. All of these organisations you cite have a neo-liberal agenda are you a neo-liberal?'

So which organisations did I cite?

I'm lost, Davey claimed that Gove didn't discount various studies based on his own analysis but based on dogma. He also posted in such a way that suggested that Gove has a position in which all experts should be ignored which misrepresents Gove's position.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm lost, Davey claimed that Gove didn't discount various studies based on his own analysis but based on dogma. He also posted in such a way that suggested that Gove has a position in which all experts should be ignored which misrepresents Gove's position.

Why are you talking about Prof Davey's posts when it was in reply t me you talked about the organisations I had cited?

[jeremyp]

He also posted in such a way that suggested that Gove has a position in which all experts should be ignored which misrepresents Gove's position.

Gove said that the British public had had enough of experts. Can you explain to me how that is not implying that all experts should be ignored?

[jakswan]

Gove said that the British public had had enough of experts. Can you explain to me how that is not implying that all experts should be ignored?

You seriously think he was suggesting that all experts should be ignored all of the time?

[ProfessorDavey]

You seriously think he was suggesting that all experts should be ignored all of the time?

He was, to my mind, clearly indicating that experts on economic matters making their opinions known on the likely effect of brexit on the economy should be ignored. And of course the reason being that he didn't like what they were saying and the predictions they were making, which, by the way are already looking pretty accurate.

But his dismissal is also, in my view, dangerous as it provides a kind of take it or leave it view to experts, evidence and data - accept if it backs up your opinion, reject if it doesn't. As a scientist that deeply worries me, expert opinion, evidence and data should be used to inform decisions, not to justify decisions already taken.

[Nearly Sane]

You seriously think he was suggesting that all experts should be ignored all of the time?

What do you think he was suggesting?

[L.A.]

You seriously think he was suggesting that all experts should be ignored all of the time?

I think it was a sound-bite that served his purpose at the time.

[jakswan]

He was, to my mind, clearly indicating that experts on economic matters making their opinions known on the likely effect of brexit on the economy should be ignored.

Yep make sure you let Jeremy know.

And of course the reason being that he didn't like what they were saying and the predictions they were making, which, by the way are already looking pretty accurate.

So you know his reasons over than his stated reasons, mind reading still?

But his dismissal is also, in my view, dangerous as it provides a kind of take it or leave it view to experts, evidence and data - accept if it backs up your opinion, reject if it doesn't. As a scientist that deeply worries me, expert opinion, evidence and data should be used to inform decisions, not to justify decisions already taken.

I think people should be free to make their own minds, he stated why he discounted their views in this case, Galileo did much the same.

[ProfessorDavey]

So you know his reasons over than his stated reasons, mind reading still?

Do you seriously think that were it that case that pretty well all economics experts had said that brexit would be great for the economy that he'd have been claiming that we've had enough of experts Jakswan?

Come on sometimes you really do need to get into the real world.

[jakswan]

Do you seriously think that were it that case that pretty well all economics experts had said that brexit would be great for the economy that he'd have been claiming that we've had enough of experts Jakswan?

Come on sometimes you really do need to get into the real world.

I do not know, do you seriously think if most econdmic experts were preciting Brexit Cameron, you, most Bremainers would be claiming he had enough of experts?

[Hope]

I do not know, do you seriously think if most econdmic experts were preciting Brexit Cameron, you, most Bremainers would be claiming he had enough of experts?

That, of course, assumes that most Remainers wanted to remain for the sake of remaining, jaks.  On the other hand, I was open to persuasion, even though I would have to say that I have been on the Remain side of centre ever since the idea of a referendum was mooted.  I have long felt that the EU is seriously flawed, but I have also long felt that change is more likely with the UK in the club; but had the experts come out in enough force to explain what the benefits of an exit would be, I'd have been happy to voted the other way to what I did.

[jeremyp]

You seriously think he was suggesting that all experts should be ignored all of the time?

No I don't. I seriously think he was suggesting that we should ignore the experts that were telling us he was wrong all of the time.

I'm sure, if he could find an expert that agreed with him, he would be extolling that expert's virtues no matter what their record on the ERM or the banking collapse was.

[jeremyp]

I do not know, do you seriously think if most econdmic experts were preciting Brexit Cameron, you, most Bremainers would be claiming he had enough of experts?

I think, if the experts had been predicting that Britain's economy would benefit from leaving the EU, there would have been far fewer Bremainers.

[L.A.]

No I don't. I seriously think he was suggesting that we should ignore the experts that were telling us he was wrong all of the time.

I'm sure, if he could find an expert that agreed with him, he would be extolling that expert's virtues no matter what their record on the ERM or the banking collapse was.

As I pointed out in #58 it was just a short snappy way of discarding the obvious truth - i.e.' a sound bite'