Veganism

[jeremyp]

If you're going to base your diet on compassion, the question should be "is what I'm about to eat capable of suffering?".

How do we determine if an organism is capable of suffering?

That excludes all vertebrates,

Does it? What evidence do you you have that all vertebrates are capable of suffering?

and probably dairy products as well

If you offered a dairy cow a choice between the suffering that goes along with being a dairy cow (whatever suffering that may be - maybe none) or never having existed at all, what answer would that cow give do you think?

[jeremyp]

I meant the vegetarian sausages, etc.

But you said a vegan product, which includes potatoes, unless animals are involved in their farming as they were before mechanisation arrived.

[ad_orientem]

I've always wondered why so many vegetarian/vegan products try to mimic meat products.

[Robbie]

I've often thought the same, why do veggie/vegan foods have to mimic meat? 

These are very nice:  https://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/asda-compare-prices/Frozen_Vegetarian/Goodlife_Cauliflower_And_Cheddar_Sausages_4_per_pack_252g.html but they are not disguised as meat, they're just something different.

[Steve H]

When I can find a vegan product I can afford, then I will decide!

Just buy fruit and veg!

[Udayana]

...
If you offered a dairy cow a choice between the suffering that goes along with being a dairy cow (whatever suffering that may be - maybe none) or never having existed at all, what answer would that cow give do you think?

Not sure what point you are making - assuming that the cow could give an answer, on what basis would it give one outside the range of answers that a human would give?

[ad_orientem]

Not sure what point you are making - assuming that the cow could give an answer, on what basis would it give one outside the range of answers that a human would give?

How much do we know about how a cow thinks?

[jeremyp]

Not sure what point you are making - assuming that the cow could give an answer, on what basis would it give one outside the range of answers that a human would give?

I've no idea what answer a cow might give but I do know that if somebody said "would you prefer never to have lived or live the life you have lived with all the suffering that was in it, I'd definitely go for the latter, as, I suspect, would the majority of humans that have ever existed.

[Udayana]

I've no idea what answer a cow might give but I do know that if somebody said "would you prefer never to have lived or live the life you have lived with all the suffering that was in it, I'd definitely go for the latter, as, I suspect, would the majority of humans that have ever existed.

Ah, I see - but that cannot justify any suffering that could be avoided, for humans or cows.

[Steve H]

How do we determine if an organism is capable of suffering?

Common sense.

Does it? What evidence do you you have that all vertebrates are capable of suffering?

I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

If you offered a dairy cow a choice between the suffering that goes along with being a dairy cow (whatever suffering that may be - maybe none) or never having existed at all, what answer would that cow give do you think?

Now you're just being silly.

[Bramble]

If you offered a dairy cow a choice between the suffering that goes along with being a dairy cow (whatever suffering that may be - maybe none) or never having existed at all, what answer would that cow give do you think?

I suspect one of the benefits of being a cow rather than a human is that such questions would never arise. The sinologist A. C Graham once wrote that 'the fundamental error is to suppose that life presents itself with issues which must be formulated in words so that we can envision alternatives and find reasons for preferring one to the other.' Much shite lurks up that particular avenue.

[Robbie]

Cows do suffer when their calves are taken away from them for veal. That is not done so early now thankfully but cows have been known to wander off in grief looking for their calf.
https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/factory-farming/cows/hidden-lives-cows/

[Sriram]

We really must stop thinking of animals as lacking in emotional pain and suffering. We all know of dogs that exhibit almost human like emotions in terms of love, sympathy, care and loyalty.  Other animals, certainly cows, also show these traits.

[Udayana]

Scallop news:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-51411680/scallop-fishermen-don-t-want-to-damage-the-environment

Scallops are going to die of old age and "just lie there rotting" because of a lack of progress on plans to allow more fishing in a spot off the Welsh coast, a fisherman has said.

Why die of old age and lie there rotting when you could be food for the starving brexit hit Welsh?

[Udayana]

Cows do suffer when their calves are taken away from them for veal. That is not done so early now thankfully but cows have been known to wander off in grief looking for their calf.
https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/factory-farming/cows/hidden-lives-cows/

We've always been ovo-lacto vegetarian but veal production has been a good reason to go vegan.

I've cut down on milk but my wife went vegan last month. Rather annoyingly, she won't now crack the eggs for our (or now, my) usual weekly omelette - defying logic, she does actually cook it though! 

[Aruntraveller]

defying logic, she does actually cook it though!

Aww...true love.