Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 564285 times)

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7175 on: January 03, 2016, 11:26:53 PM »
As I said before,
God is that which exists.

For anything to exist, there must be something which exists, and that is where you will find God.

That's just a cop out you said start with nothing.

I can just as easily assert the universe just exists. At least we can see it and be aware of it.
Who says it came from nothing?
Perhaps the universe in some sense is eternal.

You just give your God special exemptions and a free pass to the question of where God came from.

What created your God?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7176 on: January 04, 2016, 12:25:14 AM »
Of course I understood what he was writing about.
Then why does everything you have ever written about evolution scream otherwise?
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7177 on: January 04, 2016, 12:27:01 AM »
I agree that nobody can define the source of existence, but surely any sane person can accept that there must be an ultimate source of all existence.
Deepity alert!

Apart from your desire to say something that superficially seems profound, what is an ultimate source of existence, exactly?
Confucius say: only when mosquito land on testicles does man learn to solve problem without violence.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7178 on: January 04, 2016, 06:14:00 AM »
Wow! Well done, mate! That told 'im!  :)

But Alan is programmed to reject any criticism of his "God", so he'll just come back with "God" knows best!
Definitely agree!
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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7179 on: January 04, 2016, 07:49:50 AM »
I agree that nobody can define the source of existence, but surely any sane person can accept that there must be an ultimate source of all existence.

Surly any sane person doesn't try to make up stories to explain anything they don't understand or haven't yet  found the answers.

For over 150 years now there hasn't been a need for any serious revision of Darwins theory, which  is a wee bit of a better idea than any idea based on the thoughts of little more than a group of probably ignorant desert dwelling, bronze age goat herders, peasants, certainly ignorant by today's standards.   

Incidentally I have read those books you speak of and like Shakes, that incidentally's pissing me off with his consistent and persistent reading of my mind, I also wonder how you've managed to interpret them in the way you have, and then have the effrontery to start referring to, "any sane person" in your posts.

ippy

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7180 on: January 04, 2016, 08:28:41 AM »

Who says it came from nothing?

The concept of anything existing in an eternal state is too much for my brain to take in.  It is easy to say, but (for me at least) impossible to imagine.  Some physicisits maintain that time began with the Big Bang, and that time will end when the universe is completely burnt out, but what exists outside these limits?  We only know what exists in this universe, but what is outside? 
I know this does not answer your question - I am just rambling on a bit with my own thoughts.  But my faith tells me that God is eternal.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7181 on: January 04, 2016, 08:32:34 AM »
Deepity alert!

Apart from your desire to say something that superficially seems profound, what is an ultimate source of existence, exactly?
God
The truth will set you free

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7182 on: January 04, 2016, 08:36:03 AM »
Then why does everything you have ever written about evolution scream otherwise?
Perhaps my brain is wired differently to Dawkins (and yours)  ;)
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Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7183 on: January 04, 2016, 08:41:14 AM »
Some physicisits maintain that time began with the Big Bang, and that time will end when the universe is completely burnt out, but what exists outside these limits?  We only know what exists in this universe, but what is outside? 

This might not be a valid question, but even if it is the only sensible answer given the extent of current knowledge is 'don't know'.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7184 on: January 04, 2016, 09:27:52 AM »
God
But that's simply assertion on your part (as usual).
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7185 on: January 04, 2016, 09:37:53 AM »
Perhaps my brain is wired differently to Dawkins (and yours)  ;)
That's never been anything but crystal clear, Alan - you think that faith is a valid concept, and that assertion and fallacy take the place of rational argument.
Confucius say: only when mosquito land on testicles does man learn to solve problem without violence.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7186 on: January 04, 2016, 10:16:07 AM »
I agree that nobody can define the source of existence,

Then why do you keep defining "God", who you insist is the source of all, as this, that or the other?

Quote
but surely any sane person can accept that there must be an ultimate source of all existence.

And any sane person will accept that as yet we know nothing about that source.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7187 on: January 04, 2016, 10:17:35 AM »
The concept of anything existing in an eternal state is too much for my brain to take in.  It is easy to say, but (for me at least) impossible to imagine.  Some physicisits maintain that time began with the Big Bang, and that time will end when the universe is completely burnt out, but what exists outside these limits?  We only know what exists in this universe, but what is outside? 
I know this does not answer your question - I am just rambling on a bit with my own thoughts.  But my faith tells me that God is eternal.

But why can't the universe of which our little universe may be just a little bubble be eternal with no god?

You seem happy to just assert an unseen god into eternal existence, but have problems with a very visible universe that we are aware exists, being eternal.

Does this just say something about your desires rather than what is likely to be true?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

bluehillside

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7188 on: January 04, 2016, 10:56:08 AM »
Vlunderer,

Quote
Bilgeside

As usual you are converting my maybes into fundamentalist, brook no argument, pronouncements.....now I'm not saying that should come with some kind of admission into a therapeutic institutions but that help is probably available for your condition.

Now....The point is Shaker is saying that the universe isn't caused and it isn't uncaused.
He must be alluding therefore to a third way. I just want to know what it is.

On balance I think the evidence is that it did have a beginning although theism has worked perfectly well during the Hoyle steady state hypothesis because there is always the question why something and not nothing.

So there we have it.

The real problem for people like yourself is for the universe to be uncaused would require nature to have abandoned naturalism's dependence on cause and effect. People like yourself would have to concoct a supernatural explanation for the universe namely uncausedness.

Also if you can apply the quality of being uncaused to one thing you cannot disallow it for say, a God.
That suits your detractors Bilgeside because it gets rid of a load of Dawkinsian arguments like....who created God.

Indeed whatever third way to explain the universe Shaker comes up with.....That could equally apply to God.

Finally for you to eliminate causation AND noncausation you would have to shuffle like Outrider shuffled and even someone above your intellectual payscale like him ended up turdpolishing.....he couldn't quite convince that he wasn't actually arguing for uncreated matter.

Any way, Ladies and Gentlemen....I present to you....The Hillside cosmological shuffle...TAKE IT BLUE!

Oh dear. I knew I couldn’t fix stupid, but I had hoped to educate it a little.

Seems some people are pathologically undeducable though…

This’ll be wasted on you, but the cosmological argument begins with “Everything that had a beginning…”. Before you get to “caused/uncaused” you need to demonstrate that there was a beginning to which the caused/uncaused question could apply. One of the stupidities of the argument is that when someone says “causation isn’t relevant unless you can show a “before”” the less bright will say something like, “ha, but everything else has a beginning and a cause so how come you’re doing special pleading for the universe then?”

It’s the “had a beginning” bit that’s problematic for you here though. How do you know that the universe did have a beginning? How would before this "beginning" even mean anything when time and space are part of the same continuum (called “spacetime”)?

Maybe the universe is infinite. Maybe time isn’t linear in any case. Maybe there was a “before” and a quantum borrowing event occurred. Maybe, maybe, maybe…

The point is that you don’t know, and nor does anyone else – all we have is competing hypotheses. Just assuming though a “before” and therefore introducing the question of causation is Paley’s watch-level thinking: “a watch is complex and designed; an animal is complex, therefore it must have been designed too”/ “stuff I observe came into being by a causal agency; I observe the universe, therefore the universe must have come into being and had a causal agency too”.

No doubt you’ll continue to miss the point entirely with yet more trolling, but there it is nonetheless. Establish your premise first and only then will the question be a valid one.

Good luck with that!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 10:57:55 AM by bluehillside »
Science is itself a process based on methodological naturalism, i.e. treating the world as if metaphysical naturalism was the case ...but without actually taking a stand on matters philosophical (outside of method). (RationalWiki)

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7189 on: January 04, 2016, 11:00:23 AM »
The concept of anything existing in an eternal state is too much for my brain to take in.

Mine too, and I suspect everyone else's - our brains have evolved to deal with the situation inside this universe, and our thoughts are predicated on a language developed from that subjective view of time as a moving point of reference, regardless of the reality.

We are not equipped to intuitively grasp what's going on at that level, that's why we have to rely on things like mathematical modelling and allegories.

Quote
It is easy to say, but (for me at least) impossible to imagine.  Some physicisits maintain that time began with the Big Bang, and that time will end when the universe is completely burnt out, but what exists outside these limits?  We only know what exists in this universe, but what is outside?

I'm not sure that anyone thinks time will end with the heat-death of the universe - although it would be effectively meaningless by then in the absence of anything sentient to care about it.

We know nothing about what's outside the universe - we don't even know that concepts like 'exist' (which are, to a degree, implicitly temporal) are applicable.

Quote
I know this does not answer your question - I am just rambling on a bit with my own thoughts.  But my faith tells me that God is eternal.

So, if you can't grasp eternal for physical realities, why is god different? I can, in a limited fashion, see reality as an infinite space in which small events sequentially build to bigger, more significant ones such as the emergence of species, but I can't see any way to envision an immense complexity existing in perpetuity.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7190 on: January 04, 2016, 11:41:48 AM »

So, if you can't grasp eternal for physical realities, why is god different?

The fact that we are able to even contemplate these things indicates that we are more than mere matter.

from Psalm 139:

Too wonderful for me, this knowledge.
Too high, beyond my reach.
The truth will set you free

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7191 on: January 04, 2016, 11:42:36 AM »
The fact that we are able to even contemplate these things indicates that we are more than mere matter.

from Psalm 139:

Too wonderful for me, this knowledge.
Too high, beyond my reach.


Quote
The fact that we are able to even contemplate these things indicates that we are more than mere matter.

No it doesn't.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7192 on: January 04, 2016, 11:45:38 AM »
Confucius say: only when mosquito land on testicles does man learn to solve problem without violence.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7193 on: January 04, 2016, 11:47:15 AM »
No it doesn't.

Exactly, take note Alan.

ippy

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7194 on: January 04, 2016, 12:01:31 PM »
The fact that we are able to even contemplate these things indicates that we are more than mere matter.

from Psalm 139:

Too wonderful for me, this knowledge.
Too high, beyond my reach.

No, it doesn't, it says nothing at all on that particular question.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7195 on: January 04, 2016, 12:20:06 PM »
Well that's four people in a row, but it'll make no difference.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7196 on: January 04, 2016, 12:21:14 PM »
Dear Gonnagle,

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

Imaginary time which is as real as, well real time :o

the article states some fascinating stuff, we once believed that natural disasters or periodic floods sent us back to primitive states, is this mentioned in any religions, is he talking about the Noah flood, did this take us back to a primitive state??

I am mindful of quoting any stuff from the link because of the warning at the top of the link and the mods have given me a complex about quoting from articles. ::) ::)

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SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7197 on: January 04, 2016, 12:38:15 PM »
Well that's four people in a row, but it'll make no difference.
And I'm going to add my usual comment of, 'And don't tel children that what you* believe is the truth..

*'you' being AB here of course!
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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7198 on: January 04, 2016, 01:39:36 PM »
Dear Why not this Thread,

Law of conservation of mass.

A question, is a vacuum a isolated system?

I can vaguely get my head around this law of conservation, just the "isolated system" part.

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Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7199 on: January 04, 2016, 01:52:03 PM »
Alan, given your views on animals not having feelings or consciousness what do you make of this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35204936