Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3329739 times)

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20700 on: August 01, 2017, 09:21:24 AM »
There is probably a very credible explanation for how everything came into being which as our knowledge progresses may become clear. I reckon, if or when it does, no god will have been involved. A supernatural explanation for things people didn't understand in the past has been thrown out when science has come up with the answer.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20701 on: August 01, 2017, 09:22:43 AM »
There is probably a very credible explanation for how everything came into being which as our knowledge progresses may become clear. I reckon, if or when it does, no god will have been involved. A supernatural explanation [...]
... is a contradiction in terms.
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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20702 on: August 01, 2017, 09:26:06 AM »
... is a contradiction in terms.

True.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20703 on: August 01, 2017, 09:26:17 AM »
Can you assume that all beneficial mutations were chance events?
Can you assume that any beneficial mutation was a chance event?

The mutations are random, the selection is NOT random.

Imagine you have 10 coins and you want to toss 10 heads.

Toss them, then keep tossing ONLY those that are tails.

How quickly will they all be heads?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20704 on: August 01, 2017, 09:42:30 AM »
I can't apologise for or retract something which I sincerely believe to be true.

Please consider this illustration of my logic:

Imagine that a microscopic, but highly intelligent alien race came to this earth.  They come across an automated car production line.  They will correctly observe that every event occurring in the car production line has a natural observable cause.  They would see human beings as just a collection of material elements all reacting to natural forces.  They may discover other production lines producing other types of vehicle, similarly driven by natural forces acting on material elements.  They may discover historical evidence of previous production lines used to produce vehicles which no longer exist.  What will not be apparent is that every event in the production line was intelligently controlled and manipulated to produce a previously conceived specific goal.

Human scientific discovery also fails to see the bigger picture behind the apparently naturally occurring events which brought life into existence.  And the life on this earth is far more complex than any man made vehicle.  Can you honestly assume that all the countless billions of apparently naturally occurring but specific events needed to bring us into existence all just happened by chance?

O K Alan, scientific discovery fails to see the bigger picture, it'd be interesting to know how you manage to see this bigger picture, any chance of that happening?

ippy

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20705 on: August 01, 2017, 10:32:03 AM »
I can't apologise for or retract something which I sincerely believe to be true.

Please consider this illustration of my logic:

Imagine that a microscopic, but highly intelligent alien race came to this earth.  They come across an automated car production line.  They will correctly observe that every event occurring in the car production line has a natural observable cause.  They would see human beings as just a collection of material elements all reacting to natural forces.  They may discover other production lines producing other types of vehicle, similarly driven by natural forces acting on material elements.  They may discover historical evidence of previous production lines used to produce vehicles which no longer exist.  What will not be apparent is that every event in the production line was intelligently controlled and manipulated to produce a previously conceived specific goal.

Human scientific discovery also fails to see the bigger picture behind the apparently naturally occurring events which brought life into existence.  And the life on this earth is far more complex than any man made vehicle.  Can you honestly assume that all the countless billions of apparently naturally occurring but specific events needed to bring us into existence all just happened by chance?

You are ignoring posts again.  I hadn't asked you to explain your views, I suggested you retract and apologise for your spurious insistence that you have never disputed the science; and right on cue, instead of apologising you go right ahead and dispute the science yet again in full view; you really are a piece of work.  The scientific consensus is that life diversifies by mutations plus natural selection, please note the word natural, it is not the same as supernatural, and yet here you are yet again denying the scientific consensus whilst simultaneously denying your denial.  It's not even as if you had some evidence to substantiate your denials, all you offer over and over again is incredulity in the face of the scientific consensus.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20706 on: August 01, 2017, 11:03:30 AM »
“Crashes and” Burns,

Quote
But it is not personal incredulity, it is based on the logical impossibility for any purely material entity to achieve conscious awareness.

Except there's no good reason to think it's “logically impossible" at all, and your only ground for asserting otherwise is precisely your personal incredulity. If you want your claim of logical impossibility to be taken seriously then you’d need to demonstrate it rather than just assert it. Oh, and your conjecture "soul" is still logically incoherent by the way.

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Conscious perception requires an single entity of awareness which can't be defined in material terms.

No it doesn’t – as you’d realise if you took off the blinkers of “faith” and bothered to look at the evidence that undoes you. 

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I can't apologise for or retract something which I sincerely believe to be true.

Yes you can. When you get something wrong that’s called a mistake (and one of your countless mistakes by the way is to think that your sincerity has anything to do with the veracity of your various claims and assertions – it doesn’t). When the mistake is pointed out to you (as torri did when he gave examples of you precisely science denying despite your claim to the contrary) then the only honest course of action left to you is to withdraw the untruth, and perhaps to apologise for it.

Quote
Please consider this illustration of my logic:

Imagine that a microscopic, but highly intelligent alien race came to this earth.  They come across an automated car production line.  They will correctly observe that every event occurring in the car production line has a natural observable cause.  They would see human beings as just a collection of material elements all reacting to natural forces.  They may discover other production lines producing other types of vehicle, similarly driven by natural forces acting on material elements.  They may discover historical evidence of previous production lines used to produce vehicles which no longer exist.  What will not be apparent is that every event in the production line was intelligently controlled and manipulated to produce a previously conceived specific goal.

That’s just the daftness of Paley’s watch re-stated, and it betrays your utter ignorance of how evolution actually works. 

Quote
Human scientific discovery also fails to see the bigger picture behind the apparently naturally occurring events which brought life into existence.

So you think you know better than “human” scientific discovery then do you? Are you seriously suggesting the little old Alan and his book of ancient stories somehow knows about a supposed “bigger picture” than people who actually do science haven’t thought about?

Where on earth does such ocean-sized arrogance come from?   

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And the life on this earth is far more complex than any man made vehicle.

Most life at least, yes. So what point do you think you’re making here? 

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Can you honestly assume that all the countless billions of apparently naturally occurring but specific events needed to bring us into existence all just happened by chance?

Stop. Seriously, just stop. If you want to turn up here and critique evolutionary theory by displaying such utter ignorance of what it actually says then you will continue to make a fool of yourself.

Is that really what you want? Really?

Yet again:

First, evolution doesn’t happen by “chance” at all. Genetic mutations do (let’s not make your head explode by discussing here the nuanced nature of randomness by the way – for this purpose, at the level of chemistry at least it’s random) but the interactions of those mutations with their environment is anything but chance. 

Second, you’ve (once again) made the schoolboy error of assuming that evolution is purposive, that we (and presumably other life too) were in some unfathomable way an end game it was working towards all along and so the odds against getting there were unfeasibly high. Your solipsism here though lets you down – if a different self-aware species had evolved that had a third eye on the back of its head, ran backwards to avoid barking its shins on coffee tables, and could take flight at will with big feathery wings to avoid the dragons and a (not very bright) member of that species said “Can you honestly assume that all the countless billions of apparently naturally occurring but specific events needed to bring us into existence all just happened by chance?” what kind of bozo would you think him to be?   

Quote
Can you assume that all beneficial mutations were chance events?

Can you assume that any beneficial mutation was a chance event?

More ignorance. See above.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 04:32:50 PM by bluehillside »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20707 on: August 01, 2017, 04:49:55 PM »
You are ignoring posts again.  I hadn't asked you to explain your views, I suggested you retract and apologise for your spurious insistence that you have never disputed the science; and right on cue, instead of apologising you go right ahead and dispute the science yet again in full view; you really are a piece of work.  The scientific consensus is that life diversifies by mutations plus natural selection, please note the word natural, it is not the same as supernatural, and yet here you are yet again denying the scientific consensus whilst simultaneously denying your denial.  It's not even as if you had some evidence to substantiate your denials, all you offer over and over again is incredulity in the face of the scientific consensus.
I do not dispute natural selection -
I question whether every beneficial mutation was caused by a random event.

How would you discern between randomly generated beneficial mutations and carefully nurtured specific mutations to produce a desired result?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20708 on: August 01, 2017, 04:53:46 PM »
AB,

Quote
I do not dispute natural selection -
I question whether every beneficial mutation was caused by a random event.

How would you discern between randomly generated beneficial mutations and carefully nurtured specific mutations to produce a desired result?

But I just explained it to you. Here in fact:

First, evolution doesn’t happen by “chance” at all. Genetic mutations do (let’s not make your head explode by discussing here the nuanced nature of randomness by the way – for this purpose, at the level of chemistry at least it’s random) but the interactions of those mutations with their environment is anything but chance. 

Second, you’ve (once again) made the schoolboy error of assuming that evolution is purposive, that we (and presumably other life too) were in some unfathomable way an end game it was working towards all along and so the odds against getting there were unfeasibly high. Your solipsism here though lets you down – if a different self-aware species had evolved that had a third eye on the back of its head, ran backwards to avoid barking its shins on coffee tables, and could take flight at will with big feathery wings to avoid the dragons and a (not very bright) member of that species said “Can you honestly assume that all the countless billions of apparently naturally occurring but specific events needed to bring us into existence all just happened by chance?” what kind of bozo would you think him to be?


Why not read that and respond to it rather than just repeat your mistakes?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:01:16 PM by bluehillside »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20709 on: August 01, 2017, 04:59:11 PM »
I do not dispute natural selection -
I question whether every beneficial mutation was caused by a random event.

How would you discern between randomly generated beneficial mutations and carefully nurtured specific mutations to produce a desired result?
so your god is somehow carrying out expert GM on humans and given the expertise is responsible for every child that dies in pain of an hereditary  disease. Your god is a divine Mengele.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20710 on: August 01, 2017, 05:17:30 PM »
AB,

But I just explained it to you. Here in fact:

First, evolution doesn’t happen by “chance” at all. Genetic mutations do (let’s not make your head explode by discussing here the nuanced nature of randomness by the way – for this purpose, at the level of chemistry at least it’s random) but the interactions of those mutations with their environment is anything but chance. 

Second, you’ve (once again) made the schoolboy error of assuming that evolution is purposive, that we (and presumably other life too) were in some unfathomable way an end game it was working towards all along and so the odds against getting there were unfeasibly high. Your solipsism here though lets you down – if a different self-aware species had evolved that had a third eye on the back of its head, ran backwards to avoid barking its shins on coffee tables, and could take flight at will with big feathery wings to avoid the dragons and a (not very bright) member of that species said “Can you honestly assume that all the countless billions of apparently naturally occurring but specific events needed to bring us into existence all just happened by chance?” what kind of bozo would you think him to be?


Why not read that and respond to it rather than just repeat your mistakes?
The point I was making was that you do not know if the human being was an intelligently designed end product. 

Your implied assumption is that the incredible complexity of life on this planet is the result of just an unintended blip in the inexorable journey from Big Bang to Big Freeze.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20711 on: August 01, 2017, 05:21:51 PM »
I do not dispute natural selection -
I question whether every beneficial mutation was caused by a random event.

How would you discern between randomly generated beneficial mutations and carefully nurtured specific mutations to produce a desired result?

That's an irrational idea from the get-go, but then given your track record what with beings of supreme goodness that endorse evil and suchlike I suppose we should expect no better from you.  The notion of an all powerful god having to indulge fastidiously in billions of micro adjustments to get his desired genome into shape is inconsistent, just as is the god who wishes to make himself known to the human species using methods that bury his evidence trail so utterly so that it would be impossible for humans to detect it, just as is the god who wishes the best for humans engineering a genome that incorporates thousands of heritable conditions not to mention legacy issues like back problems from our evolutionary past.  As seems with all your ideas they contradict themselves effortlessly without any need for serious consideration.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:23:59 PM by torridon »

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20712 on: August 01, 2017, 05:26:00 PM »
The point I was making was that you do not know if the human being was an intelligently designed end product. 

Your implied assumption is that the incredible complexity of life on this planet is the result of just an unintended blip in the inexorable journey from Big Bang to Big Freeze.

The notion of intelligent design is irrational anyway so that is a non-starter.  Higher intelligence is not fundamental, it is both derivative and contextual, it derives from lower order intelligence so the notion of higher intelligence as first cause makes no sense.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:30:28 PM by torridon »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20713 on: August 01, 2017, 05:36:23 PM »
“Crashes and” Burns,

Quote
The point I was making was that you do not know if the human being was an intelligently designed end product.

You’re playing fast and loose with “know” there. What we do know though is that every scrap of evidence we have points to evolution being not intelligently designed at all. Why for example would an omnipotent and omniscient god mimic a system that relies on billions of trial and error events, includes huge redundancy (because almost all mutation are either deleterious of make no difference), and (as others have noted) causes horrifying pain and suffering in some cases?

Your big mistake (well, one of them at least) by the way is your use of the word “beneficial”. They may appear beneficial to you because they happened to produce you, but they would also appear that way to any other self-aware species evolution happened to produce instead.

In other words, you’re just committing again a fallacy called the reference point error.     

Quote
Your implied assumption is that the incredible complexity of life on this planet is the result of just an unintended blip in the inexorable journey from Big Bang to Big Freeze.

It’s not an “assumption”, it’s where the evidence points. And again you make this mistake of thinking that the complexity we happen to observe was intended all along, whereas different complexity producing different life forms would not be.

Why is this so difficult for you?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:54:05 PM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20714 on: August 01, 2017, 06:13:10 PM »
The notion of intelligent design is irrational anyway so that is a non-starter.
I'm not sure if that holds if humans are able one day to make synthetic lifeforms.
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20715 on: August 01, 2017, 06:15:16 PM »
I'm not sure if that holds if humans are able one day to make synthetic lifeforms.
I think the second "if"  and the - what do you usually call it? - promissory "one day" scuttle your case there somewhat, Vladsticles.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20716 on: August 01, 2017, 06:16:47 PM »
The notion of intelligent design is irrational anyway so that is a non-starter.  Higher intelligence is not fundamental, it is both derivative and contextual, it derives from lower order intelligence so the notion of higher intelligence as first cause makes no sense.
I have already pointed out that intelligent design does exist as demonstrated by numerous man made designs.  As the Christian bible says we are made in God's image, so it is feasible that we inherited this attribute of intelligent design from God.

And does it matter what method God used to produce a DNA molecule containing all the data and mechanisms needed to create and maintain a complete human being?  The specific complexity of the end result far exceeds the Goo which would be produced by two billion years of totally random events acting on life's basic ingredients.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20717 on: August 01, 2017, 06:19:53 PM »
I have already pointed out that intelligent design does exist as demonstrated by numerous man made designs.  As the Christian bible says we are made in God's image, so it is feasible that we inherited this attribute of intelligent design from God.
Not for the first time, your idea of 'feasible' is your own.

Quote
And does it matter what method God used to produce a DNA molecule containing all the data and mechanisms needed to create and maintain a complete human being?  The specific complexity of the end result far exceeds the Goo which would be produced by two billion years of totally random events acting on life's basic ingredients.
And there we go - gather round, everyone. The "totally random" demonstrates that you haven't a Scooby as to what you're prattling about.

I don't at all mind that you embarrass yourself - that's daily comedy gold - but I object when you make me embarrassed for you.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 06:22:42 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20718 on: August 01, 2017, 06:29:06 PM »
I think the second "if"  and the - what do you usually call it? - promissory "one day" scuttle your case there somewhat, Vladsticles.
Yes I suppose it is a bit promissory but theoretically possible since it is merely the manipulation of matter.

Real promissory science as held by a few characters around here says that science will one day discover the answer to everything. My claim is rather modest in comparison.

I have even in the past suggested resurrection might be technically possible.
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20719 on: August 01, 2017, 06:32:55 PM »
Yes I suppose it is a bit promissory but theoretically possible since it is merely the manipulation of matter.

Real promissory science as held by a few characters around here says that science will one day discover the answer to everything. My claim is rather modest in comparison.

I have even in the past suggested resurrection might be technically possible.
Ah.

So your promissories are OK but the other chap's promissories are prohibited.

Your "resurrection one day" is all right as far as it goes, and as far as it goes is as far as I go, which is "Well, who the hell knows what technology could do one day ... I'm not there yet", as opposed to the Christian's "It was magic a long while ago when people wiped their arses on leaves and didn't know where the sun went at night."

Apart from that ...
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 06:41:21 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20720 on: August 01, 2017, 06:36:04 PM »
“Crashes and” Burns,

Quote
I have already pointed out that intelligent design does exist as demonstrated by numerous man made designs.

Yes, but it’s not analogous to evolution. In fact, top down design is pretty much the opposite of bottom up evolution.

Quote
As the Christian bible says we are made in God's image, so it is feasible that we inherited this attribute of intelligent design from God.

And that’s called the fallacy of begging the question. That a book says something tells you nothing about whether or not that something is feasible. For your point to stand, you’d first have to establish the Bible as necessarily authoritative on the matter.

Quote
And does it matter what method God used to produce a DNA molecule containing all the data and mechanisms needed to create and maintain a complete human being?  The specific complexity of the end result far exceeds the Goo which would be produced by two billion years of totally random events acting on life's basic ingredients.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Seriously – what? You’ve had what evolutionary theory actually entails explained countless times yet you just ignore every explanation and repeat over and again your ignorant misunderstanding of it. 

First, there’s been life on earth for a lot longer than 2 billion years.

Second, you have no good reason at all to think that evolution wouldn’t have produced any manner of complex life given the time and oportunity to do so with no god involved.

Third, “the specific complexity of the end result” is just your repeated reliance on the reference point error. Evolution works bottom up – it’s not working toward a specific anything; it just enables adaption to environmental change by countless trial and error events. That “you” rather than something else just happen to have popped out of it is entirely irrelevant.

Good grief.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20721 on: August 01, 2017, 06:38:18 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Real promissory science as held by a few characters around here says that science will one day discover the answer to everything. My claim is rather modest in comparison.

Which "characters"? I've never seen anyone here say that.
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Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20722 on: August 01, 2017, 06:43:14 PM »
I have already pointed out that intelligent design does exist as demonstrated by numerous man made designs.  As the Christian bible says we are made in God's image, so it is feasible that we inherited this attribute of intelligent design from God.

And does it matter what method God used to produce a DNA molecule containing all the data and mechanisms needed to create and maintain a complete human being?  The specific complexity of the end result far exceeds the Goo which would be produced by two billion years of totally random events acting on life's basic ingredients.

Alan,  I was going to reply to these posts in more detail but then I realised that, it is pointless.

You are lost to reason, as exemplified by your resort to the argument from design and utter ignorance of the theory of evolution.

So I will ask a different question, although it one related to a previous one which you have failed to answer.
I start out with the fact that there is no evidence which convinces me of the existence of the Christian God (possessed of the traditional Omnis) you claim that he has helped you many times in life.

You claim:

  • To be in a personal relationship with this god.

    That he has provided answers to prayers.

    Given you everything you needed,

    Causes suffering, misery, woe on people in order to get them ready for heaven.

    Gives us a soul that is non deterministic but also not random (ehh).

    But also that this god has sent you here to bring others round to the probability of his existence.



    So what has your efforts achieved?

    on a scale of 0 (no god) to 10(god) I was probably around 1.

    Since encountering your "logic" I would say that I am <1 that "your" god exists.

    You claim:

    Your God want me to be in a relationship with him.

    I would find such a relationship wonderful.

    Your God can answer your prayers.

    Well then I will look very seriously at your God claims and spend at least 1 year obeying your god discovering ideas if you can tell me the six digit number I have written down .

    Am happy to share it with a mods of your choice (three might get two numbers each and someone else get the order, easy to think of some way of doing I),.

    If you really are in a relationship with a god and he wants to save me why wouldn't you take the challenge?



I would of course be similarly convinced by a resurrection of some people mention both on this forum and also in the news in general.

Why not pray for the resurrection of the Grenfell Tower victims (after all was definitely caused / or approved by god, according to your interpretation of the Isaiah verse quoted in order to prepare people for heaven).

 If people in the bible could be cured/resurrected why not them?

« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 06:59:39 PM by Étienne d'Angleterre »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20723 on: August 01, 2017, 06:46:11 PM »
Ah.

So your promissories are OK but the other chap's promissories are prohibited.
Well......Yes.

I feel you are trying to detract us from Torridon's dogmatic statement that intelligent design of life is irrational.

Unlike the hardarsed Scientismatist. I think there are things science could notionally solve but things which it cannot, things for which it is methodologically inadequate...the falsifiability barrier if you like and I have outlined what these things include.
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #20724 on: August 01, 2017, 06:48:47 PM »
I have already pointed out that intelligent design does exist as demonstrated by numerous man made designs.  As the Christian bible says we are made in God's image, so it is feasible that we inherited this attribute of intelligent design from God.

Yes man made intelligent design is one thing, but our intelligence did not spring out of nowhere fully formed, it took billions of years of evolution.  The idea of intelligence as first cause is irrational.