Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 1905609 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26575 on: February 25, 2018, 04:10:18 PM »
Hi Susan,

Quote
No doubt you are congratulating yourself on a well-crafted
 reply? I am sure there are quite a few who will not agree with you, including me.

I wonder whether he does think that, or if at some level he's realised that he's just fallen off (another logical) cliff? Maybe, just maybe somewhere inside there's a little voice saying, "Oh hang on, in that case my own argument about pre-commitment to a naturalistic explanation would apply to any other claim of the supernatural too - why then should anyone dismiss those ones but not mine or Alan's? Yikes!"

Then again, maybe not...

Ah well. 

 
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Phyllis Tyne

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26576 on: February 25, 2018, 04:57:20 PM »
And you keep on demonstrating that you cannot back up what you claim. #26530 again.

There is no ‘moral high ground’ on who can claim the truth of their position here. I want to see you justify your claim that Alan has been duped and in what way he has been gullible.
Congratulations on a well crafted reply.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26577 on: February 25, 2018, 05:01:48 PM »
Quote
Congratulations on a well crafted reply.

Very droll.
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jeremyp

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26578 on: February 25, 2018, 08:48:06 PM »
The only way for two way interaction to take place is to introduce consciously driven free will, otherwise every event is just an inevitable consequence to previous events, and in the example you give, the conversion of some hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide and waste heat is just part of the deterministically driven continuum of this universe.
Still a two way interaction - deterministic or not.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26579 on: February 26, 2018, 03:34:20 PM »
sounds like you've been duped Alan , you should be ashamed of yourself for being so gullible .

Just a bit more detail.  The woman in question is from a family from our local church community whom we have known and socialised with for many years.  Her eighteen year old daughter said she had never known her mother to walk unaided (without crutches or help) in her living memory.
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Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26580 on: February 26, 2018, 03:49:41 PM »
Just a bit more detail.  The woman in question is from a family from our local church community whom we have known and socialised with for many years.  Her eighteen year old daughter said she had never known her mother to walk unaided (without crutches or help) in her living memory.
oh dear Alan, so not even a first hand experience . You can interpret what you see however you like but don't expect others to see it in the same way ,.

Surely you don't expect me to simply believe what you say , I require evidence that something as incredible as you claim has happened . Why don't you?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26581 on: February 26, 2018, 04:14:22 PM »
oh dear Alan, so not even a first hand experience . You can interpret what you see however you like but don't expect others to see it in the same way ,.

Surely you don't expect me to simply believe what you say , I require evidence that something as incredible as you claim has happened . Why don't you?
Sadly, no matter what evidence I produce, I fear you would find some reason to dismiss it.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26582 on: February 26, 2018, 04:29:50 PM »
AB,

Quote
Sadly, no matter what evidence I produce, I fear you would find some reason to dismiss it.

That's not true. If you did ever produce some evidence, then it would be taken seriously. Your problem though is that you define "evidence" so widely that it becomes meaningless. "Mrs X had a limp, I prayed for her, the limp went, therefore prayer works" for example isn't evidence for prayer at all for reasons that have been explained to you many times but that you ignore nonetheless.

For what it's worth you're not alone - no-one else has ever managed to produce evidence for gods either, but your contention here fails nonetheless.   
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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26583 on: February 26, 2018, 04:39:37 PM »
Sadly, no matter what evidence I produce, I fear you would find some reason to dismiss it.

The point is that one person getting better isn't evidence. How many times do you pray for people who don't get better? Such studies that have been done show that prayer simply doesn't work.
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wigginhall

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26584 on: February 26, 2018, 04:56:16 PM »
I should think that some people who get sick are prayed for, and some people who die also.    AB isn't surely claiming that there is a tendency for them to get better? 
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torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26585 on: February 26, 2018, 05:15:11 PM »
Sadly, no matter what evidence I produce, I fear you would find some reason to dismiss it.

Well because the counter evidence is overwhelming.

I've been to Lourdes.  My son has volunteered as a helper there. I've seen the hundreds of sick and disabled being wheelchaired in at the start of their stay, and the same people get helped to leave at the end of their stay, still wheelchairbound.

So the best you can claim is an erratic god using his power, seemingly at random, healing maybe the one but ignoring the one thousand.  That is not a god I would worship.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 05:17:39 PM by torridon »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26586 on: February 26, 2018, 05:22:59 PM »
Well because the counter evidence is overwhelming.

I've been to Lourdes.  My son has volunteered as a helper there. I've seen the hundreds of sick and disabled being wheelchaired in at the start of their stay, and the same people get helped to leave at the end of their stay, still wheelchairbound.

So the best you can claim is an erratic god using his power, seemingly at random, healing maybe the one but ignoring the one thousand.  That is not a god I would worship.
That's surely not something you can say. It's also not counter evidence to the actual existence of supernatural claims that some people don't get better, The claim itself is based on no methodology so it's nonsensical to even talk about evidence in that light.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26587 on: February 26, 2018, 05:23:53 PM »
Torri,

Quote
Well because the counter evidence is overwhelming.

I've been to Lourdes.  My son has volunteered as a helper there. I've seen the hundreds of sick and disabled being wheelchaired in at the start of their stay, and the same people get helped to leave at the end of their stay, still wheelchairbound.

So the best you can claim is an erratic god using his power, seemingly at random, healing maybe the one but ignoring the one thousand.  That is not a god I would worship.

Or perhaps the best he could claim is a god who when prayed to achieves exactly the same results as any other god, as no god at all, or as sticking a pencil up your nose while reciting the lyrics to pop princess Kylie Minogue’s “I Should Be So Lucky”.
"To understand via the heart is not to understand."

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26588 on: February 26, 2018, 05:27:56 PM »
Well because the counter evidence is overwhelming.

I've been to Lourdes.  My son has volunteered as a helper there. I've seen the hundreds of sick and disabled being wheelchaired in at the start of their stay, and the same people get helped to leave at the end of their stay, still wheelchairbound.

So the best you can claim is an erratic god using his power, seemingly at random, healing maybe the one but ignoring the one thousand.  That is not a god I would worship.
There is the presence of spiritual healing too - but if you can't admit to the existence of your spiritual nature, you would not perceive this as evidence - unless you were the one to experience the healing.

As mother Theresa said - the big problem with the affluent west is spiritual poverty.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 05:32:40 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26589 on: February 26, 2018, 05:30:01 PM »
AB,

Quote
There is the presence of spiritual healing too - but if you can't admit to the existence of your spiritual nature, you would not perceive this as evidence - unless you were the one to experience it.

Just out of interest, do you even know what the fallacy of circular reasoning involves?
"To understand via the heart is not to understand."

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26590 on: February 26, 2018, 05:57:37 PM »
AB,

Just out of interest, do you even know what the fallacy of circular reasoning involves?
Yes.
I was just pointing out that it is impossible to discuss matters of spirituality with someone who can't even admit to its existence.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26591 on: February 26, 2018, 06:01:11 PM »
Yes.
I was just pointing out that it is impossible to discuss matters of spirituality with someone who can't even admit to its existence.
This is another one of your attempts to portray peookewhi disagree with you as liars.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26592 on: February 26, 2018, 06:03:21 PM »
This is another one of your attempts to portray people who disagree with you as liars.
No - just genuinely deluded.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free Will is the highest truth about humanity - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26593 on: February 26, 2018, 06:09:37 PM »
No - just genuinely deluded.
So everyone who disagrees with you is mad? So it's not that they cannot admit it

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26594 on: February 26, 2018, 06:15:25 PM »
AB,

Quote
Yes.
I was just pointing out that it is impossible to discuss matters of spirituality with someone who can't even admit to its existence.

That's very amusing and still circular. What you said was:

"There is the presence of spiritual healing too - but if you can't admit to the existence of your spiritual nature, you would not perceive this as evidence - unless you were the one to experience it."

You're telling him he has to "admit to the existence" of something in order to accept the evidence for it. Your problem though is that you have no evidence for this supposed "spiritual nature" to be admitted to in the first place

Good grief. 

« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 06:18:45 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26595 on: February 26, 2018, 06:18:07 PM »
AB,

Quote
No - just genuinely deluded.

Does it not seem odd to you that those who understand reason and logic must be "genuinely deluded" whereas you (who understands neither) isn't?

Could it just be, you know, well... the other way around?

 
"To understand via the heart is not to understand."

Michel de Montaigne

Phyllis Tyne

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26596 on: February 26, 2018, 06:29:22 PM »
AB,

Just out of interest, do you even know what the fallacy of circular reasoning involves?
You should . Remember philosophical materialism, or physicalism.
Then there was that faux reprieve of the "methodological " which has never actually helped you out.
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Walter

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26597 on: February 26, 2018, 06:31:30 PM »
Sadly, no matter what evidence I produce, I fear you would find some reason to dismiss it.
go-on , try me . You must have some, otherwise people might think you were daft .

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26598 on: February 26, 2018, 06:32:41 PM »
Quote
You should . Remember philosophical materialism, or physicalism.
Then there was that faux reprieve of the "methodological " which has never actually helped you out.

Such a droll.
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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #26599 on: February 26, 2018, 06:35:00 PM »
...philosophical materialism ... physicalism...   

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