Author Topic: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists  (Read 3410 times)

Hope

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2015, 08:21:34 AM »
Since my Bishop of Dover post, I've been wondering how I could write to CofE Bishops in the UK and say something on the lines of: How can you possibly, in the face of Science and all the other disciplines which have given us real, practical, factual knowledge of the universe, medicine, etc,  stand there and tell people that God loves them, will hear our prayers, had a son who died to save us from death, when you must know the whole thing is a myth, totally lacking in any objective evidence? How dare you!
I tried googling 'blogs about bishops' and tried writing something to send to all of them, but don't think I'll manage it!!
CofE bishops aren't the only people who "stand there and tell people that God loves them", Susan.  I also suggest that some CofE bishops, non-CofE church leaders and clergy, especially those who have scientific backgrounds, might come back to you with far more knowledge about the situation than you might care to appreciate.
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Leonard James

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2015, 08:26:03 AM »


Why would you do that?

Bishops/ Vicars also help a lot of people when they lose loved ones. Do you go visit all your neighbours when they lose someone?

Susan wasn't criticising helping people when they need it, so don't pretend she was. She was merely critical of their bringing mythical beings in at the same time ... which helps nobody.

Quote
Vicars often do, I have a friend who is ordained and visits lots of people in hospital and outside.

Do you think Vicars and your friend would stop doing it if they didn't believe in "God"?


« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 08:27:35 AM by Leonard James »

Floo

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2015, 08:31:50 AM »

I read this on a post from The Atheist Experience. Rarely does the astounding approach to judging others as different because they think slightly differently get expressed so clearly. It is well written. It is clear. I allow the writer some leeway because of their position but they are still an area rejecting attempts at comfort. Me old sainted mother often tells me she prays me for me. I would be a dick of the highest order to consider she was only doing it to make herself feel better or that it would stop her doing something that I considered more practical.

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/kevin-davis/atheist-s-open-letter-those-praying-his-son?awt_l=GYlGk&awt_m=3tAPaj3jmAWHhWh
Without God men would never have developed medicine and the modern ways that save people.
Truth is God made man and has given him the knowledge of these things. God used herbal medicines in the bible.. It would please the atheist but the realist know that what we have all came from God.
Man has his knowledge and skills because of the tools he provided.


See how man sets himself above everything...
Only God has the last say...

ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
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Maeght

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2015, 08:32:23 AM »

It's funny what people think is well written.


It's equally 'funny' what people think is not well written. It's a matter of personal taste and opinion - no right or wrong either way.

What's crass about putting a link where people can provide financial support if they wish?

Outrider

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2015, 09:05:58 AM »
I find this such a May I pick up on something that Mr Davis says:

Quote
Thereís a reason that the sick go to hospitals full of doctors and nurses when they need healing, instead of seeking out faith healers or priests, or staying home to pray as their only means of treatment. Itís because most believers realize that prayer isnít an effective cure for anything.
This is a massive misunderstanding of what 'most believers realize'.  The vast majority of the believers I have had had dealings with over the last 60-odd years believe that not only is prayer a valuable means of cure, but God has provided skills to individuals that he uses to answer those prayers.  Perhaps even more importantly they realise that those skills aren't restricted to people who believe in him, but are given to people both of faith and of no-faith.

As such, for me, Mr Davies' argument grinds to a halt at this point

I was going to respond to various  other sections of the blog, but as his argument doesn't seem to go anywhere after this, I'm not sure that there is any point.

I don't think he'd claim that they don't help.

The point he's making is that prayer doesn't work, that's been more than adequately demonstrated practically and in his well-reasoned argument.

Given that we know this, praying becomes some sort of spiritual masturbation, it's all about they person praying, because it makes no difference to anyone else.

Telling someone that you're praying is equally ineffective - all it does is give the impression that you're trying to help. Why do that? If you aren't actually helping, why give the impression that you are?

The specific time spent praying or telling people that you're praying, could be more usefully spent. If you help people out, spend a little longer doing that, and don't bother doing something useless or telling us you're doing something useless.

If you actually believe, though, that prayer makes a difference, then... I don't know, I really fail to understand how logically or practically you can ignore the fact that it obviously doesn't.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2015, 09:58:35 AM »
I suspect that without the sainted mother NS wouldn't have taken the matter as personally as he clearly does and may have read the article as written.

In the sense that we all take things personally, this is trivially true - it neither inavlidates the reading, nor does it mean that you or jp are not taken things personally. Rather I was using old sainted mother to personalize teh experience for me, and to try and see if I felt that to quote you


'Or you could politely explain that since you're not a believer, you don't think that she's doing anything useful, meaningful or worthwhile for you at all, although you appreciate that you know that she believes she is.'

felt in any way something I would do and the answer is no. Because as with many religious people that's already accepted. It ties in with Susan Doris' s friend. If people know you well, then they know the position and it's just their way of expressing concern. If they don't then it's no more than someone who is not a theist saying, I'll be thinking about you.

I do wonderif the expereince of teh writer from an American perspective makes it different to me, not because of dear old mum, but because the theists I know are effectively secular in their approach. They aren't going to think prayer is anything like a substitute for medical care and don't really react any differently from me to suffering.


Leonard James

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2015, 10:14:24 AM »


No, but she seemed to be proposing writing unpleasant judgmental letters to bishops she didn't know personally.

Can you really say mythical beings help nobody?

What people feel helps them is very subjective, and some people feel their beliefs help them cope.

If it helps them cope, it helps them.

What doesn't help, is you undermining them by telling them it is all in their imagination.

Each to his own.

If I believed in "Thor "or "Peter Pan"and that helps me personally get through a situation, then it helps.

Lots of people find the attention of other religious people " helpful" and while I was in hospital ( the woman in the bed next to mine died) and a few had someone come from the church to read a few verses from the bible.

If it brought comfort to them, it helped.


My friend does it as part of her role, because she is asked to. It brings her in contact with a community she would not mix with if she didn't go to church.
She would probably still visit friends and immediate neighbours, but no she probably wouldn't try and help and comfort total strangers.
People wouldn't ask if she wasn't in the role she is in.
Her role gives her the confidence to do that.

So probably not, not in the same way.

We can all get a little incensed about these things at times, so I won't say any more.

SusanDoris

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2015, 12:06:01 PM »


Why would you do that?

Bishops/ Vicars also help a lot of people when they lose loved ones. Do you go visit all your neighbours when they lose someone?

Susan wasn't criticising helping people when they need it, so don't pretend she was. She was merely critical of their bringing mythical beings in at the same time ... which helps nobody.

Quote
Vicars often do, I have a friend who is ordained and visits lots of people in hospital and outside.

Do you think Vicars and your friend would stop doing it if they didn't believe in "God"?
Thank you for that , Leonard. You are quite right  of  course.
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SusanDoris

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2015, 01:31:15 PM »
No, but she seemed to be proposing writing unpleasant judgmental letters to bishops she didn't know personally.
I do not write unpleasant' or 'judgemental'  letters. I consider carefully what to say and why I am saying it. For example, a couple of weeks ago I sent a letter (on paper, in an envelope, with a stamp!) to the makers of the new CV equipment at the gym to request help and advice on how I can possibly use the touch screens efficiently. I could have made it a complaint about inaccessibility, but that would probably have put their backs up.  It was firm but polite. No reply so far, so this will be followed up by a reminder soon.
Quote
Can you really say mythical beings help nobody?
Yes! There are no mythical beings ... unless of course you can show that there are. A person's thoughts about a mythical, imaginary being might help that particular person think more clearly, but that's it, it's all in the person's mind.
Quote
What doesn't help, is you undermining them by telling them it is all in their imagination.
Any 'undermining' you may think is, again, all in the person's mind. They are avoiding the truth, the facts.

If a person derives help from another person, whatever he/she reads out loud, the help is from the presence of the person, not the mythical being either or both believe in.












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Hope

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2015, 01:39:11 PM »
ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
Which is all assumption, in itself, Floo, since you have no facts one way or the other.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 01:41:50 PM by Hope »
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Hope

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2015, 01:51:08 PM »
I don't think he'd claim that they don't help.

The point he's making is that prayer doesn't work, that's been more than adequately demonstrated practically and in his well-reasoned argument.
Since I would disagree with your underlying assertion here, I'm afraid that I would have to regard the whole of this post as of no value.
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Shaker

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2015, 01:52:58 PM »
Rather than pretending that you're in the Monty Python argument sketch ("No it isn't"), if you disagree with the underlying assertion that prayer doesn't work, explain why, with evidence.
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Outrider

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2015, 01:56:57 PM »
I don't think he'd claim that they don't help.

The point he's making is that prayer doesn't work, that's been more than adequately demonstrated practically and in his well-reasoned argument.
Since I would disagree with your underlying assertion here, I'm afraid that I would have to regard the whole of this post as of no value.

And I'd have to suggest that the repeated demonstration in experimental conditions that intercessionary prayer has no effect on outcomes means it's less and assertion and more a reasonably well-verified finding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer

Ideally, larger sample sizes would be required to unequivocally validate the findings, but the money is far better spent on more likely prospects for improving the human condition.

O.
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Maeght

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2015, 03:47:04 PM »
ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
Which is all assumption, in itself, Floo, since you have no facts one way or the other.

Surely if you are say 'you have no facts one way or the other' then saying what Floo said is correct.

ippy

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2015, 05:41:49 PM »
ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
Which is all assumption, in itself, Floo, since you have no facts one way or the other.

No and Floo doesn't need them and you do; you've still not been able to back up your assertions, Floo's not asserting anything, you do and are.

ippy

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2015, 05:45:48 PM »
ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
Which is all assumption, in itself, Floo, since you have no facts one way or the other.

No and Floo doesn't need them and you do; you've still not been able to back up your assertions, Floo's not asserting anything, you do and are.

ippy

Floo most certainly is asserting things.  Do you appreciate what the word means?  -  "to say that something is certainly true."  You may say theists do that, but it is also precisely what Floo, and you, are doing.
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It is my commandment that you love one another."

ippy

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2015, 06:45:12 PM »
ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
Which is all assumption, in itself, Floo, since you have no facts one way or the other.

No and Floo doesn't need them and you do; you've still not been able to back up your assertions, Floo's not asserting anything, you do and are.

ippy

Floo most certainly is asserting things.  Do you appreciate what the word means?  -  "to say that something is certainly true."  You may say theists do that, but it is also precisely what Floo, and you, are doing.

Try keeping up B A.

ippy

BashfulAnthony

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2015, 07:02:03 PM »
ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
Which is all assumption, in itself, Floo, since you have no facts one way or the other.

No and Floo doesn't need them and you do; you've still not been able to back up your assertions, Floo's not asserting anything, you do and are.

ippy

Floo most certainly is asserting things.  Do you appreciate what the word means?  -  "to say that something is certainly true."  You may say theists do that, but it is also precisely what Floo, and you, are doing.

Try keeping up B A.

ippy

Or, in your case, ippy, keeping down.   :)
BA.

Jesus said to him, ďI am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

'andles for forks

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2015, 06:16:18 PM »
ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
Which is all assumption, in itself, Floo, since you have no facts one way or the other.

No and Floo doesn't need them and you do; you've still not been able to back up your assertions, Floo's not asserting anything, you do and are.

ippy
We all need facts but funnily enough the one's you think we need and prove your POV such as the age of the universe and the nature of the big bang we only need to pass our GCSE.
I like the ''made up in the fourth century'' hypothesis but I also like Bart Ehrman. There's only one way to sort this out. Use contradictory evidence as it suits your argument wheeeeyyyyy!

ippy

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2015, 12:21:28 PM »
ALL assumption NOT FACT! ::)
Which is all assumption, in itself, Floo, since you have no facts one way or the other.

It's a fact that you cannot supply any evidence that proves that your god thingy idea inside your mind , whatever it is, exists, Floo isn't inventing anything in her mind and telling you this invention in her mind exists, so she doesn't need to proof anything, again, you do.

ippy
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 01:13:25 PM by ippy »

Gonnagle

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2015, 12:46:02 PM »
Dear Sane,

An atheist rant and if the story is true he deserves a rant, when his child is fit and healthy then he could have a discussion regarding the points in his rant.

Trouble is with atheism us God botherers find it difficult to walk a mile in another mans shoes as we are often told it is very simple, you don't believe in God/gods.

Is another word for simple, boring. ::) :P

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Leonard James

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Re: The Astonishing Lack of Empathy of Some who are Atheists
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2015, 01:21:09 PM »
We all  have access to the 'evidence' for the existence of God, and most people, for thousands of years found it convincing.

Nowadays, for whatever reasons, more and more people are less convinced by it. Only time will tell if the change will continue.