Author Topic: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.  (Read 4651 times)

floo

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2015, 01:58:47 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

Owlswing

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2015, 08:31:31 PM »
I would be interested to see how our fallen nature and redemption, as revealed throughout scripture, fits into your argument Sass.

Are you trying to say that Adam didn't know he had a choice..

Therein lies the answer to the fallen nature of man and and the redemption is more to do with the nature of God.

Adam knew what it meant when God said ''Do not eat from the tree of knowledge''
He also understood that to do so would mean death. There was no death of anything at that point. So whatever the understanding he knew whatever God was telling him.

Then came the point where Adam disobeys God and we see what that death clearly was.

Genesis 3 shows how death came to Adam.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


It is clear that Adam and Eve has the right to eat from the tree of life.

Genesis 2
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Death came when that right was removed along with everything else man has suffered since.


King James Bible
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



God did not provide an imperfect way this time. He provided a way back to him that nothing could prevail against. Not sin, the world or the devil.
Once Adam crossed that line all was lost. God did not provide a way back that relied on mans own righteousness. He provided a way back that relied on one man as the fall was about one man Adam. A way that could not be undone by humans or the devil.

Just as Adam had to choose... Just as Christ had to choose.King James Bible
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So man as individuals have the freewill to choose life or death.
To obey God and live or ignore God and die.

All the useless arguments will not bring salvation to any man. Nor will it take it a way.
One way only and that is the way of Jesus Christ being the one full oblation for remission of sins.

Sassy,

You and Hope really do need to get together and decide if Christianity is based upon the Bible in its entirety, as you seem to be saying by quoting Genesis (old Testament) above or, as Hope has stated on more than one occasion, that it is based wholey and soley upon the New Testament.

You cannot both be right.
 
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

Rhiannon

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2015, 08:50:39 PM »
#19 Maeght, I expected nothing else.

Outrider

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2015, 10:26:47 AM »
Are you trying to say that Adam didn't know he had a choice..

As an atheist, and along with a number of Christians, I don't think Adam was real, so that question is somewhat moot. From within the tale, given that Adam was created with knowledge of Good and Evil, whilst he might have been capable of choice that choice was not free, because it was not informed.

Adam's life had not enabled him to comprehend the implications of the choice, because he had not been exposed to the understanding - not having free will does not mean that life does not afford you choices or the illusion of being able to select them, but rather that what you think is a decision is an inevitable consequence of who you are at that moment.

Quote
Adam knew what it meant when God said ''Do not eat from the tree of knowledge''
He also understood that to do so would mean death.

Obedience is good and disobedience is bad (evil) - how did Adam, created without the knowledge of those, know?

Just a point, though - citing the Big Boy's Book of Jewish Bedtime Stories doesn't actually address any of the points I made about why free will is illusory.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Shaker

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2015, 10:51:33 AM »
It depends how you interpret the bible.
In view of what is claimed for the book, it's interesting that it needs "interpreting" at all, isn't it?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Owlswing

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2015, 11:33:52 AM »
It depends how you interpret the bible.
In view of what is claimed for the book, it's interesting that it needs "interpreting" at all, isn't it?

How many times have I asked for any of the Christians on this entire Forum to explain why their book containing the revesled Word of [their] God needs interpreting at all and also why there are about 50,000+ experts (expert - "ex" = something/someone who has been - "xpert" = a drip under pressure) who all interpret it as saying something different.

Answers received so far - Erm - None! I wonder why?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 11:35:56 AM by CMG KCMG GCMG »
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

Outrider

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2015, 11:42:53 AM »
Depends, disobedience is the first sign of independance and the ability to grow, therefore in this instance the disobedience was good.
Man would not have become responsible without it.
You could argue that man was not in the image of God until he was capable of acting independantly.

It depends how you interpret the bible.
In 'reality' yes, but I was intending that to be an interpretation from within the realms of the story as laid out - apologies if that wasn't clear enough.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

jakswan

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2015, 12:30:14 PM »
I think Sass has to believe that the dammed choose to believe. Sass is the good one and people how mock her (the bad ones) have chosen their path.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
- Voltaire

Owlswing

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2015, 06:52:45 PM »
It depends how you interpret the bible.
In view of what is claimed for the book, it's interesting that it needs "interpreting" at all, isn't it?



. . .  Judaism the Torah can be interpreted in many ways depending on circumstances . . .


A major part of the reason for this is that Hebrew is a language that is very much based upon context.

A word used in one context can mean something vastly different in another.
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

2Corrie

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2015, 11:09:16 PM »
 
I would be interested to see how our fallen nature and redemption, as revealed throughout scripture, fits into your argument Sass.

Are you trying to say that Adam didn't know he had a choice..


Um, no that is not what I am trying to say. The question is does fallen man have a choice?  Slaves to sin and all that.
"It is finished."

Leonard James

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Re: Free will allows us to choose what we believe.
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2015, 07:05:42 AM »

I would be interested to see how our fallen nature and redemption, as revealed throughout scripture, fits into your argument Sass.

Are you trying to say that Adam didn't know he had a choice..


Um, no that is not what I am trying to say. The question is does fallen man have a choice?  Slaves to sin and all that.

Everybody has a choice. Nobody is a slave to anything.