Author Topic: Requirements for the messiah  (Read 2742 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2015, 10:07:11 PM »
Here's a requirement to ponder, He had to come before the second temple was destroyed.
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2Corrie

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2015, 10:08:42 PM »
Here's a requirement to ponder, He had to come before the second temple was destroyed.

Why?

It makes more sense to say he had to come after the second one was destroyed.


He couldn't have rebuilt the third one before then, because the second one was still standing.

 ::)

It's in the Jewish scriptures, look it up
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~TW~

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2015, 11:00:03 PM »
 :) Quote--You wouldn't listen, you already think you have them.  That's why you won't ever genuinely look.

You are happy with the thoughts of others who share the beliefs you do, and the theology of whichever church it is you follow.
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Have you ever read such nonsense 2Corrie this lot are at a loss today.
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2Corrie

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2015, 11:01:52 PM »
 :) Goodnight TW
"It is finished."

~TW~

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2015, 11:04:27 PM »
:) Goodnight TW

 goodnight 2Corrie  :) time to turn in.

 ~TW~
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ad_orientem

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2015, 02:43:16 AM »
Here's a requirement to ponder, He had to come before the second temple was destroyed.

Why?

It makes more sense to say he had to come after the second one was destroyed.


He couldn't have rebuilt the third one before then, because the second one was still standing.

 ::)

Christ himself the the Temple.
Rationalism leads to Protestantism leads to atheism.

ad_orientem

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2015, 07:55:04 AM »
Here's a requirement to ponder, He had to come before the second temple was destroyed.

Why?

It makes more sense to say he had to come after the second one was destroyed.


He couldn't have rebuilt the third one before then, because the second one was still standing.

 ::)

It's in the Jewish scriptures, look it up

No it isn't.

As usual it has been mistranslated and twisted

More here.

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/

Not that you will read it.


But some of the others might be interested.

Why, in your opinion, is that any more a valid interpretation than the Christian one? And the Jews have been shown to have even doctored the Hebrew version to counter Christian use of the Septuagint which speaks more clearly of Christ (an example of which would be the "virgin" prophecy in Isaiah).
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 03:58:34 PM by ad_orientem »
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2Corrie

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2015, 06:48:07 PM »
https://youtu.be/lXSBR047MMk

A Jew sharing about the Messiah with his fellow Jews. Worth a watch.
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Spud

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2015, 07:55:15 PM »
This is some of them

Quote

Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple

Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel

Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."

Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one: "G-d will be King over all the world—on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One"




How did Jesus fulfil the above?  Especially the two  in bold

This is why Jews don't accept Jesus as the messiah


How do Christians explain that there was no world peace in Jesus's time or any time, really?

These verses contain imagery. They were fulfilled when the Jews returned to Israel from captivity in Babylon.

See for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIMeyvaxAEw

trippymonkey

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2015, 10:42:20 PM »
What exactly did Jesus, A JEW, do to help his fellow JEWS in His time ????

Leonard James

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2015, 10:51:19 PM »
What exactly did Jesus, A JEW, do to help his fellow JEWS in His time ????

I can't see that he did anything, other than preach to them. They already had the ten commandments, which I suppose he reduced to two and explained them more fully.

Hope

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2015, 07:43:24 PM »
No it isn't.

As usual it has been mistranslated and twisted

More here.

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/

Not that you will read it.


But some of the others might be interested.
A very interesting article, Rose.  Interesting in that, rather like Floo does, it picks up on thinking among some more extreme and sectal groups (such as the JWs - in the latter example) and tries to make out that that is mainstream Christian thinking.

I've lost track of how many sermon series I've heard on Daniel, and I've never heard that 'Many Christians assert that these passages are a prophesy that predicts the exact dates that the Messiah will come and also die. They believe that Jesus fulfilled these predictions. (Daniel 9: 24-26)  In fact most sermons I've heard on this passage take verse 18 as their core verse.

Quote
Therefore in Daniel the passages should be correctly translated as:

Daniel 9:24 “Until an anointed prince” and not as “Until Messiah he prince.”

Daniel 9:25. “an anointed one will be cut off” and not as “the Messiah will be cut off.”

Additionally, in verse 25 there is no definite article (Hey ~ ה) before the word (משיח ~ Moshiach) and it is incorrect to translate this as “the Messiah” or “the anointed one” as if it were speaking about one exclusive individual. When translating correctly as an “anointed individual” the passages could be referring any one of a number of different individuals or objects that were anointed and not necessarily “the Messiah.”

I have looked at 10 or 11 'Christian' translations (whatever they might be) and have found no reference to 'Until Messiah he prince' inverse 24 in any of them.  More often than not, it has been a form of the 'anointed prince' claimed for the Jewish translation.

Regarding the reference to 'anointed one' being muddled with 'messiah', the problem is that the original term is used - even by the Jews - to refer to both concepts.
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Hope

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2015, 07:45:58 PM »
What exactly did Jesus, A JEW, do to help his fellow JEWS in His time ????

I can't see that he did anything, other than preach to them. They already had the ten commandments, which I suppose he reduced to two and explained them more fully.
Not sure that he merely 'explained them more fully'. LJ.  With some he expanded them beyond anything that the Jewish leaders had ever considered.  He also taught other ideas that weren't included in the 10 Commandments.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

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Leonard James

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2015, 12:47:19 PM »
What exactly did Jesus, A JEW, do to help his fellow JEWS in His time ????

I can't see that he did anything, other than preach to them. They already had the ten commandments, which I suppose he reduced to two and explained them more fully.
Not sure that he merely 'explained them more fully'. LJ.  With some he expanded them beyond anything that the Jewish leaders had ever considered.  He also taught other ideas that weren't included in the 10 Commandments.

Yes, I suppose that is why they engineered his execution. He certainly didn't deserve to die, but there ya go, crossing religious moguls always brings out the worst in them.

trippymonkey

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2015, 02:39:30 PM »
Didn't the Romans go along with this as they didn't want any more trouble making there.?????
Will a little help from the Jews ....?!?!!?!?

ippy

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Re: Requirements for the messiah~
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2015, 04:33:06 PM »
Oh dear! Don't demonise the Jews in your attempt to glorify your own theology.

          Rose these are the words of Jesus dont blame me also check this out

                       
http://www.bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm

                             ~TW~

Do you really think he was talking about ALL Jews?

Really?

I think his words have been taken out of context.

I don't think he ever meant it as a criticism of ALL Jews.

That sounds like it was made up by various churches to justify themselves and spread antisemitism.

 Rose you are making me tired read what he said in scripture,try to stand on your own two feet we cant hold your hand through life everyday.

       ~TW~

~TW ~

Tired?

Perhaps you need to go to bed earlier ~TW~

I doubt if it is me, making you tired.

Perhaps it's the strain of thinking for yourself  ;)

I am reading scripture and I can see what says, I've also spent some time looking at the Jewish context for it.

I don't need anyone to hold my hand ~TW~

I'm perfectly capable of trotting off to this and that and a Synagogue/church, listening to the different arguments , and reading up on other sources for myself.

In fact, on such matters I wouldn't allow another person to " hold my hand" some things in life you have to look into and make up your own mind  about in your own way.


A lot of theology is designed to stop you doing that.

Mainly because with a theology you have a tailor made answer, which someone else thought of, so you don't need to question it, you just concentrate on believing it.

But it is always someone else's reasoning as opposed to using your own ( perhaps that explains the tiredness)

That's just not acceptable to me, (someone else thinking it out for me) I like sorting out my own answers.

🌹

With you on this one Rose.

ippy

DaveM

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Re: Requirements for the messiah
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2015, 06:52:49 PM »
Rose,

The Christian view is that over thirty Old Testament prophecies concerning Messiah were precisely fulfilled in the death and resurrection of Jesus at His first advent.  There are also many others which Christians believe are yet future, waiting to be fulfilled at His Second Coming.

An incomplete list of references to the prophecies concerned with the first advent, together with New Testament references which Christians see as being their fulfilment is given below. (I hope all my references are correct.  Would appreciate being informed of any glitches).

If you do not consider Jesus to be the Messiah then I would be interested to know whether:

a)   You believe some or all have these prophecies have already been fulfilled and if so how.

b)    For those that have not yet been fulfilled, whether and how they might be fulfilled by a future Messiah when he finally comes.  Perhaps the Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 prophecies would be a good place to start.
   
Prophecies from Psalm 22.
Psalm 22:1-5.  Verse 1 See Matt 27:46

Psalm 22:6-11.  Verse 6, 7 & 8  See Matt 27:39-44

Psalm 22:12-15  Verse 13 See again Matt 27:39-44,  Verse 15 and Psalm 69:3 See John 19:28

Psalm 22:16-21.  Verse 16 See John 19:34 & 37,  Verse 17  John 19:36,  Verse 17 Matt 27:36, Verse 18 – dividing His garments see Matt 27:35, casting lots for His clothes, see John 19:24

Genesis 3:15 (Seed of woman being bruised)  See John 19:18, Gal 3:13-16

Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 53:1-3 (despised and rejected by men)  See Mark 15-29-32

Isaiah 53:4-6  See John 19:1-3 & 1 Peter 2:24

Isaiah 53:7-12 Verse 7 (opened not His mouth) See Matt 27:11-14, Verse 7 (the Lamb of God)  See John 1:29,  Verse 9 (grave with the rich)  See Matt 27:56-60,  Verse 12 (intercession for transgressors)  See Luke 23:24,  Verse 12 (numbered with the transgressors)  See Mark 15:27-28.

Zechariah
Zech 9:9  Matt 21:1-5

Zech 11:12  (thirty pieces of silver)   See Matt 26:15

Zech 11:13  (potters field)  See Matt 27:3-7

Zech 12:10 (lamented and mourned)  See Luke 23:27  Perhaps a foreshadowing of a final fulfilment at end tribulation.

Zech 13:7-9  (disciples scattered)  See Mark 14:27 & 50, (God to smite the shepherd)  See Matt 26:31

Psalm 31:1-5  (Gave up the Spirit) See Luke 23:46-47

Psalm 35:11-12 ((false witnesses)  See Mark 14:55-59

Psalm 38:9-12 esp vs 11 (friends stood far off)  See Luke 23:48-49

Psalm 41:7-9 (Judas betrayal)  John 13:18-19

Psalm 69:13-21 (Verse 19, shame, reproach)  See Matt 27:28-29, Verse 21 Gall and vinegar.  See Matt 27:33-34 & 48,  Mark 15:22-23 & 36,  Luke 23:36, John 19:29-30 (See Mark 14:24-25).