Heaven

[Maeght]

Because it meant the spear had not only punctured the lung but the penetration of the heart causing an outpouring of blood and pericardial fluid which was referred to as water. So ensuring he was dead.

I think pericardial fluid forms around the lungs and heart and within the chest not inside the heart or lungs so it wouldn't mean the heart and lungs were penetrated.

[Enki]

You may find this of interest. Dr Jane Aspell is a cognitive neuroscientist at Anglia Ruskin University.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/interviews/interview/1000981/

This makes interesting reading, HH. Incidentally the type of objective evidence that was mentioned some way down(hiding cards/pictures in places that only a person experiencing an OBE could see), was done by the Sam Parnia Aware study as one of his methods(' objective verification of claims of awareness using specific tests.').

Unfortunately, as in all other similar tests, the results were negative. That is not to say that OBEs do not take place, of course, but it would, indeed, be a boost to the reality of OBEs, if such testing had had some positive feedback..

[Nearly Sane]

If it dies, I won't bother to resurrect it again.

Kudos, Floo, your resurrection of the thread worked as more posts since you brought it back from its NDE than prior

[floo]

Kudos, Floor, your resurrection of the thread worked as more posts since you brought it back from its NDE than prior

I got lucky, I suppose!

[trippymonkey]

Just a slight aside, I DO apologise BUT...
when Jesus went out into the desert etc & was 'talking' with God, schizophrenic?!?!!?, who recorded His words ?

Nick

[SweetPea]

When I talked of all cultures I obviously meant all cultures where such research and investigations has been done to an equal level of reliability. Not with tribal and rural folk where even contacting and interviewing them would be a problem. 

Even in major cities in India for example, though we have big modern hospitals...I am not sure that they are equipped to investigate NDE's.  That sort of thing requires a very different focus and a different set of trained professionals. Patients would need to be contacted months after they have recovered and maybe over several sittings, without hurting their sentiments etc. Normal doctors on duty may not be able to devote their time and energy to such matters.

I was referring to different countries like the US, UK and Europe and people belonging to different beliefs and religious backgrounds like Christians, Muslims, Hindus (Anita Moorjani for example), atheists etc.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Moorjani

http://www.near-death.com/religion/atheism/an-analysis-of-the-ndes-of-atheists.html

Hi Sriram

Good to see mainstream has finally acknowledged Anita Moorjani's NDE. It seems, sometimes the experience has something to 'tell' us. Some have had their lives changed dramatically, as in Anita's case. (Apologies, a lot of 'somes' there.... Izzz a wee bitty tired! Well, that's my excuse!).

Here is Anita at TEDx in San Franscisco. I don't agree with all that she says, but her general message is heartening:

 http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/Dying-to-be-me-Anita-Moorjani-a;search%3Aanita%20moorjani

[Sassy]

Let's rewrite this:

There is a report from France (reference please) which states that a man whose heart was restarted after a myocardial infarction had apparently suffered a dream-like illusion in which he had imagined himself going to Hell and then invoking the name of Jesus in order to save him.

So what?

No! that is not correct the guy in question was an hardened atheist.
Who was dead for about 3 hours or more.
If I can find it, so can you if you really want to that is.
I watch programs where these things are spoken about.

[Sriram]

Hi Sriram

Good to see mainstream has finally acknowledged Anita Moorjani's NDE. It seems, sometimes the experience has something to 'tell' us. Some have had their lives changed dramatically, as in Anita's case. (Apologies, a lot of 'somes' there.... Izzz a wee bitty tired! Well, that's my excuse!).

Here is Anita at TEDx in San Franscisco. I don't agree with all that she says, but her general message is heartening:

 http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/Dying-to-be-me-Anita-Moorjani-a;search%3Aanita%20moorjani

Hi SweetPea...thanks for that.

Yes....more and more people are beginning to accept the reality of NDE's in general. I saw a Hollywood movie on TV recently ...not sure of the name .."Heaven is real' or something like that,  in which the NDE of a small boy is the theme. Based on a real story apparently. In India of course, NDE's are commonly used in movies. 

I guess in coming generations it will become more accepted as a normal part of life. Death will lose its sting....which is the way it should be...!

Cheers.

Sriram

[Sriram]

This makes interesting reading, HH. Incidentally the type of objective evidence that was mentioned some way down(hiding cards/pictures in places that only a person experiencing an OBE could see), was done by the Sam Parnia Aware study as one of his methods(' objective verification of claims of awareness using specific tests.').

Unfortunately, as in all other similar tests, the results were negative. That is not to say that OBEs do not take place, of course, but it would, indeed, be a boost to the reality of OBEs, if such testing had had some positive feedback..

There are some reasons why placing placards near the ceiling may not work.

1. For dead people, 'above' may not mean the same as as it means in the physical world.  I mean to say, when a person says he saw his body from above....he may not necessarily be 10 feet or 15 feet above the ground. When people die they probably go into another dimension which can only be described as 'above'.....but  they need not actually be near the ceiling.  So....they may not see everything that is placed near the ceiling.

2. The spirit or soul is connected with the mind and the mind sees only what is relevant to the person at that time.   Just because you don't remember seeing certain sign boards on Oxford Street...doesn't mean you haven't been there.

3. The dead person would in all probability be very disturbed and confused. In that state of mind they may not observe all and sundry items in the room unless they are in some way emotionally connected with them. Its probably not like flying by casually and looking around at everything on the way.

The conversations and medical procedures that the 'dead' person is able to see and recall have been verified in many cases and found to be true. That is probably the only way it can be verified objectively.

[Enki]

There are some reasons why placing placards near the ceiling may not work.

1. For dead people, 'above' may not mean the same as as it means in the physical world.  I mean to say, when a person says he saw his body from above....he may not necessarily be 10 feet or 15 feet above the ground. When people die they probably go into another dimension which can only be described as 'above'.....but  they need not actually be near the ceiling.  So....they may not see everything that is placed near the ceiling.

2. The spirit or soul is connected with the mind and the mind sees only what is relevant to the person at that time.   Just because you don't remember seeing certain sign boards on Oxford Street...doesn't mean you haven't been there.

3. The dead person would in all probability be very disturbed and confused. In that state of mind they may not observe all and sundry items in the room unless they are in some way emotionally connected with them. Its probably not like flying by casually and looking around at everything on the way.

The conversations and medical procedures that the 'dead' person is able to see and recall have been verified in many cases and found to be true. That is probably the only way it can be verified objectively.

Actually I didn't mention 'placards near the ceiling' at all. In one study(Holden 1989) of 63 OBEs, 70% reported consciousness located above their physical bodies, most at or near the ceiling. These findings confirmed what other authors had suggested. So, to isolate the stimulus, it should be located above the eye level of any person and facing towards the ceiling, so that it would be only visible from the vantage point of the ceiling. In the Miner-Holden study of visual perception, about 75% suggested they saw clearly and without distortion, that colour matched the physically perceived colour and that their field of vision was as good as, or better than their physical field of vision. About 60% suggested that they had mostly or totally accurate memories of what they saw, and that they could probably or definitely read during their experiences. However, I do agree that somewhat less encouraging is the fact that, regarding attention to extraneous detail, only slightly more respondents said that they would be attentive to such detail as would not.


It is also interesting that no less a person than the eminent NDE researcher Kenneth Ring(in an email exchange with Bruce Greyson)  said, in 2006:

but isn't it true that in all this time there hasn't been a single case of a veridical perception reported by an NDEr under controlled conditions? I mean, thirty years later, it's still a null class(as far as I know). Yes, excuses, excuses-I know. But, really, wouldn't you have suspected more than a few such cases at least by now?

As far as I know all the studies relating to the placing of such visual targets have produced entirely negative results to date.

It seems to me that if you want to establish to the scientific community that there really is a personal consciousness/soul or whatever you wish to call it absent from the brain, you really need some form of objective methodology such as the above, so that it can then be investigated further. I wish you luck, and, certainly, if anybody comes up with such repeatable evidence, then I, for one, will take such claims seriously. 

[Harrowby Hall]

No! that is not correct the guy in question was an hardened atheist.
Who was dead for about 3 hours or more.
If I can find it, so can you if you really want to that is.
I watch programs where these things are spoken about.

Do you mean this?

http://blog.godreports.com/2012/03/atheist-professors-near-death-experience-in-hell-left-him-changed/

Anecdote appearing in a blog called "godreports" - about as unreliable as it gets. Everything reported by him with not a single independent word of confirmatory evidence.

Tripe for the credulous.

[Sriram]

It is also interesting that no less a person than the eminent NDE researcher Kenneth Ring(in an email exchange with Bruce Greyson)  said, in 2006:

As far as I know all the studies relating to the placing of such visual targets have produced entirely negative results to date.

It seems to me that if you want to establish to the scientific community that there really is a personal consciousness/soul or whatever you wish to call it absent from the brain, you really need some form of objective methodology such as the above, so that it can then be investigated further. I wish you luck, and, certainly, if anybody comes up with such repeatable evidence, then I, for one, will take such claims seriously.

Yeah...I agree. The problem is that often only after more and more people start taking it seriously will we find the necessary build up.

Gathering objective evidence can take many decades. It happens all the time even in hard sciences like biology, QM and cosmology. In soft areas like spirituality it is likely to take much longer. Methodologies have to be  tried and tested and developed slowly over time. They have to evolve suitably to match the requirements and after that  they will suddenly start yielding results. 

[Nearly Sane]

Do you mean this?

http://blog.godreports.com/2012/03/atheist-professors-near-death-experience-in-hell-left-him-changed/

Anecdote appearing in a blog called "godreports" - about as unreliable as it gets. Everything reported by him with not a single independent word of confirmatory evidence.

Tripe for the credulous.

Notably nothing in it about being dead, and a quick jibe against 'socialised medicine'

[Maeght]

Do you mean this?

http://blog.godreports.com/2012/03/atheist-professors-near-death-experience-in-hell-left-him-changed/

Anecdote appearing in a blog called "godreports" - about as unreliable as it gets. Everything reported by him with not a single independent word of confirmatory evidence.

Tripe for the credulous.

It can't be that. Sassy said he was dead for 3 hours - not unconscious for 30 minutes. Unless of course she was mistaken.

[Sassy]

Do you mean this?

http://blog.godreports.com/2012/03/atheist-professors-near-death-experience-in-hell-left-him-changed/

Anecdote appearing in a blog called "godreports" - about as unreliable as it gets. Everything reported by him with not a single independent word of confirmatory evidence.

Tripe for the credulous.

No that isn't it.

[Maeght]

No that isn't it.

I suspect no one will be able to find it.

[Bubbles]

This is the longest NDE I can find.

http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/some-people-were-dead-for-several-days.html

I bet it freaked out the person doing the autopsy too, I wouldn't be surprised if they needed counselling after that.

It's interesting that the man was an Athiest originally and he didn't come out believing in the God of the Jews or of any particular religion.

But he believes in something.

[Bubbles]

This dated 2014 is from the university of Southhampton, interesting.

In 2008, a large-scale study involving 2060 patients from 15 hospitals in the United Kingdom, United States and Austria was launched. The AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation) study, sponsored by the University of Southampton in the UK, examined the broad range of mental experiences in relation to death. Researchers also tested the validity of conscious experiences using objective markers for the first time in a large study to determine whether claims of awareness compatible with out-of-body experiences correspond with real or hallucinatory events.


http://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2014/10/07-worlds-largest-near-death-experiences-study.page#

Their results were published here, but you have to log in to buy it.

http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/pdf

[torridon]

There are some reasons why placing placards near the ceiling may not work.

1. For dead people, 'above' may not mean the same as as it means in the physical world.  I mean to say, when a person says he saw his body from above....he may not necessarily be 10 feet or 15 feet above the ground. When people die they probably go into another dimension which can only be described as 'above'.....but  they need not actually be near the ceiling.  So....they may not see everything that is placed near the ceiling.

2. The spirit or soul is connected with the mind and the mind sees only what is relevant to the person at that time.   Just because you don't remember seeing certain sign boards on Oxford Street...doesn't mean you haven't been there.

3. The dead person would in all probability be very disturbed and confused. In that state of mind they may not observe all and sundry items in the room unless they are in some way emotionally connected with them. Its probably not like flying by casually and looking around at everything on the way.

The conversations and medical procedures that the 'dead' person is able to see and recall have been verified in many cases and found to be true. That is probably the only way it can be verified objectively.

The notion of dead people being able to see and hear begs the question of what then is the point, or the difference, in being alive.  Seeing is a highly procured information flow through complex visual systems found in living beings, likewise, hearing is another modal phenomenological information flow through a system.  Evolution has honed these information systems over billions of years, seems a bit of a waste of time if all that complex information flow is just there somehow by magic.

[Bubbles]

The notion of dead people being able to see and hear begs the question of what then is the point, or the difference, in being alive.  Seeing is a highly procured information flow through a complex visual system, likewise, hearing is another modal phenomenological information flow through a system.  Evolution has honed these information systems over billions of years, seems a bit of a waste of time if it all that complex information flow is just there somehow by magic.

Being alive you have a body, you can reproduce, explore, and experience the universe in a different way.

You can also relate to others and learn.

Normally it's the religious that look for a purpose in life.

There doesn't have to be a purpose we understand totally, perhaps the difference is being alive we have to " work it out for ourselves".

Perhaps we don't learn and experience in the same way if we are formless concienceness.

It isn't any more " mad" than scientists who suggest the universe is like a huge simulation.

Maybe it is 

Perhaps whatever is, wants our experiences within what we think of as the natural world.

Who knows what some alien super being could want?

It may want something from us we consider more mundane, like our daily struggles etc.

Like a reality programme. Perhaps it's that our bodies limit our experiences making them more interesting to whatever wants them.

We will have to explore and wait and see.

Perhaps what ever started off the universe wants to experience the whole of its creation, from the first few cells of life.

[torridon]

The notion of dead people being able to see and hear begs the question of what then is the point, or the difference, in being alive.  Seeing is a highly procured information flow through a complex visual system, likewise, hearing is another modal phenomenological information flow through a system.  Evolution has honed these information systems over billions of years, seems a bit of a waste of time if it all that complex information flow is just there somehow by magic.

Being alive you have a body, you can reproduce, explore, and experience the universe in a different way.

You can also relate to others and learn......

But if dead people can see and hear,  then presumably they can also taste, and smell and feel, and presumably then they could also relate to others and learn and study medicine and play backgammon in the shade of olive trees.  If the dead can do living things then there is no point in being alive.

[Sebastian Toe]

This dated 2014 is from the university of Southhampton, interesting.

Their results were published here, but you have to log in to buy it.

http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(14)00739-4/pdf

..or you can read some reviews;

http://web.randi.org/swift/no-this-study-is-not-evidence-for-life-after-death
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=24542
https://god-knows-what.com/2014/10/08/new-evidence-for-life-after-death/

[ekim]

Being alive you have a body, you can reproduce, explore, and experience the universe in a different way.

You can also relate to others and learn......


But if dead people can see and hear,  then presumably they can also taste, and smell and feel, and presumably then they could also relate to others and learn and study medicine and play backgammon in the shade of olive trees.  If the dead can do living things then there is no point in being alive.

The man in the article wasn't dead though.  His body responded to the knife incision and it appears that his brain was able to retain and access the memories of his ND experiences.  It appears that whilst in the near death state the consciousness was cut off from its body awareness but was still receptive to other imagery, just as we are in dreams and deep thought.

[Free Willy]

What if your perception of time goes before you are dead? Effectively you would feel you are in eternity conscious but not conscious of time?

There would be nothing to compartmentalise the feelings of wrongs committed and they would be part of your new perceived ''eternal'' consciousness.

[Sriram]

The notion of dead people being able to see and hear begs the question of what then is the point, or the difference, in being alive.  Seeing is a highly procured information flow through complex visual systems found in living beings, likewise, hearing is another modal phenomenological information flow through a system.  Evolution has honed these information systems over billions of years, seems a bit of a waste of time if all that complex information flow is just there somehow by magic.

What is the point?...... is a question we can ask of the Big Bang, Evolution, Parallel universes etc. etc. But there are no easy answers. It is similar in such matters as spirituality and NDE's etc.  I don't know what the point is....nor does anyone else.

As I have pointed out many times...we cannot deny QM just because it cannot be reconciled with Relativity. We cannot deny Dark Matter just because it is counter intuitive. We just have to observe all the different facets of the universe and try to put them together as well as we can, using our limited capabilities.

We cannot keep denying observations and experiences just because we are unable to make sense of them or are unable to put them together with  certain other observations. 

Materialists tend to believe that life just happened by accident because the conditions happened to be right. Evolution happens just as a natural consequence of the properties of certain chemicals, environmental pressures. Consciousness is an emergent property of evolution. 

However, from NDE's and other such phenomena, we find that Consciousness exists as a separate entity in the body. It has all faculties... and as I explained earlier, it is similar to living in a space suit or probe. The body can be blind or deaf but not the spirit/soul/Consciousness.

Now...how all this fits in with evolution and the Big Bang etc. is not easy to say outright. It needs to be investigated and understood. It may take several centuries  to understand even in a rudimentary fashion. We do have some philosophical ideas on why and how these things happen but they are just musings. We don't know for certain.

The point is that just because we are unable to fit certain phenomena into our known ideas of the world...does not mean we can simply ignore them or deny them or keep turning a blind eye to them. We have to face all aspects of life regardless of whether they make any sense  to us or not.