Author Topic: Religions have succeeded!  (Read 3254 times)

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9825
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2015, 03:30:22 PM »
Quote
seemed ... seems ... HAS
FIFY

So no, then, except for where it has done.
Again, FIFY, Shakes.
Do not alter my posts. They are written to convey the thoughts I have and don't need "fixing," least of all by the likes of you. Convey what passes for your thoughts in your own words if you must, but do so without tampering with my posts to make them.appear to read to say what you intend rather than what I intend.

Or selects a small part that, out of context it looks as though you are saying something else, this bloke often goes for the underhanded in these ways.

ippy

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9825
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2015, 03:39:12 PM »
I'm really lookig forward to one of your gem like posts, explaining why another one of Sriram's strange posts is making sense. Not.
Well, at least Rose tries to unwrap and critique people's posts, rather than the instant and uncritical dismissal technique that you use.

To short for you to alter, without showing your hand?

ippy

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25590
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2015, 05:37:42 PM »
To short for you to alter, without showing your hand?

ippy
And that hand would be ...? 
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9825
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2015, 06:51:44 PM »
To short for you to alter, without showing your hand?

ippy
And that hand would be ...?
[/quote

True to form.

ippy]

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4970
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2015, 06:08:46 AM »

The cohesive effect of religions cannot be denied. Centuries ago when people lived separate and disparate lives in thousands of villages and towns around the world with each tribe being suspicious and scornful of the other....the only uniting factor was religion. It helped us to move away from the animal tendencies of mutual suspicion to mutual cooperation and a vision of unity.

Religion is the only emotional factor that supersedes all other distinctions such as geography, national, racial, linguistic, class and so on. Today we can see the cohesion between Hindus, Buddhists, Jews,  Christians, Muslims across the world irrespective of national boundaries and racial and linguistic differences.

In spite of atheism, science and other factors...even today religion is the prime source of morality, social control and self discipline around the world.  We have moved from hundreds of religions in earlier times to just five or six major religions for seven billion people worldwide today. A remarkable feat of uniting and maintaining a common moral fiber across humanity!

Religions have clearly succeeded in making humans more humanistic, more tolerant, more united,more ethical and moralistic than before.

 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 06:12:53 AM by Sriram »

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11060
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2015, 09:33:12 AM »
I am not denying that religion is also the source of many conflicts. Anything can be misused.  Even science and technology are misused. It depends on the people and their stage of development. Science and technology have perhaps ruined our planet more than religions ever have.

Science and technology cannot be 'misused', because they claim no inherent morality or purpose. They are discoveries of the underlying mechanisms and patterns of the universe, and the applications of those learnings.

Similarly, religions cannot be 'misused', because there is no definitive 'use' in any of them: they are all subjective interpretations, and the ones that have survived best are the ones that are vague enough to lend themselves to multiple interpretation to weather storms of reality and knowledge. Religion is not something that can be applied, religion is the result of the collective application of faith.

Quote
We must remember that we humans develop beginning with base animal urges... moving to emotional faculties... and then to intellectual faculties.  Our need to discipline ourselves also therefore moves in the same direction....from base urges to emotional needs to intellectual needs.

That sounds wonderful. I fail to see how following fairy-tales does that.

Quote
Religions have helped us to control these aspects of ourselves in various ways for centuries. I cannot imagine a situation where religions did not at all exist.

No, they haven't. Religions have suppressed aspects in favour of conformity - sometimes to reasonable suggestions, sometimes to arbitrary crap, sometimes to tribal nonsense of their origin location and time. Maturity doesn't come from following rules because they are there, maturity comes from understanding the underlying principles that guide the rules and realising which ones are worthy and rewriting those that aren't.

Quote
Just imagine no Ten Commandments, no Jesus and his teachings,  no Mohammad and his teachings, no Hindu scriptures, no Mahavira teachings, no Buddha teachings. No temples, no churches, no mosques. No Christmas, no Diwali, no Ramzan....!

Shame to lose the architecture, perhaps, but I suspect that in the absence of religious motivation people would have found other reasons to express themselves. The underlying principles of moral behaviour would still emerge, because they have done so despite the presence of these religions claiming ownership of morality.

Quote
We would have still been savages and remained separated by animal urges and petty emotional tangles.

You have no way to know that, definitively, and I have no reason to believe it. Religion is an intrinsic part of history, but I see no reason to presume that it's necessary for our development or all societies that moved past religion would have stagnated, when in fact they are the happiest, most developed, most equitable, most moral societies we have.

Quote
Even science and philosophy have been possible only because we have managed to discipline our first and second faculties to a large extent and thereby managed to develop our intellectual faculties.

Right. Is that because of religion, despite religion or regardless of it?

Quote
Obviously, all individuals will not develop together or even in sync with one another. Different communities will develop at different rates and individuals within communities will also develop at different rates.  But in the long run many if not most individuals will manage  to develop in that order. We can see that it has already happened.

Yes, we can see that it's happened. And where it's happened most is where religion is being discarded as unnecessary at best, actively deleterious at worst.

Quote
Of course many will still be at the emotional stage and some even at the base stage. This is to be expected.

Not really. We have global communication, we have the capacity to teach, but we are being stymied by 'tradition' and 'culture' - religion.

Quote
IMO.... religions have therefore been very useful in making us develop using such things as morality, rules,  discipline, social order and self control. They have been Nature's (God's?) tools in making us evolve culturally, emotionally and intellectually.

Religion has been very useful in developing close-knit communities, tribal support mechanism and the like. It has, however, also been useful in controlling large segments of the populace, maintaining imbalanced power systems, institutional misogyny, homophobia, racism, caste systems, slavery, arbitrary social exclusions and wars.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25590
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2015, 12:21:42 PM »
Or selects a small part that, out of context it looks as though you are saying something else, this bloke often goes for the underhanded in these ways.

ippy
Thanks for supporting me in my comment about Shakes, ippy.   ;)
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25590
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2015, 12:39:41 PM »
Science and technology cannot be 'misused', because they claim no inherent morality or purpose. They are discoveries of the underlying mechanisms and patterns of the universe, and the applications of those learnings.
Sorry, O, science and technology can be misused.  Findings can be used to give false impressions in the same way that stats can be.  Perhaps the most famous one that I can think of was Kinsey's findings regarding the proportion of homosexuals in the population - 10% - based on a very small, untypical sample of society.  They may have 'no inherent morality or purpose', but the scientists who use them often will have these things.

Quote
Similarly, religions cannot be 'misused', because there is no definitive 'use' in any of them: they are all subjective interpretations, and the ones that have survived best are the ones that are vague enough to lend themselves to multiple interpretation to weather storms of reality and knowledge. Religion is not something that can be applied, religion is the result of the collective application of faith.
See above.

Quote
I fail to see how following fairy-tales does that.
Why the sudden reference to fairy tales, O?  Are you suggesting that science and religion are fairy tales? 

Quote
No, they haven't. Religions have suppressed aspects in favour of conformity - sometimes to reasonable suggestions, sometimes to arbitrary crap, sometimes to tribal nonsense of their origin location and time. Maturity doesn't come from following rules because they are there, maturity comes from understanding the underlying principles that guide the rules and realising which ones are worthy and rewriting those that aren't.
Try replacing the word 'religions' with 'legislation', O.  You will realise that they both serve the same purpose.

Quote
... but I suspect that in the absence of religious motivation people would have found other reasons to express themselves. The underlying principles of moral behaviour would still emerge, because they have done so despite the presence of these religions claiming ownership of morality.
No, they haven't emerged 'despite the presence of these religions claiming ownership of morality'; they have emerged because of the presence of those religions, O.  We don't live in a moral vacuum, and today's morals are based on the principles of previous ones.
 
Quote
Religion has been very useful in developing close-knit communities, tribal support mechanism and the like. It has, however, also been useful in controlling large segments of the populace, maintaining imbalanced power systems, institutional misogyny, homophobia, racism, caste systems, slavery, arbitrary social exclusions and wars.

O.
As has secularism and humanism, O.  At the same time, it should be pointed out that belief that X, Y or Z behaviours are bad for society may well be, at least in part, the outcome of non-religious factors.  Our modern society can't claim to have only good morals.  If anything, our current morality status is no better than those of previous generations, societies or centuries.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11060
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2015, 12:50:55 PM »
Sorry, O, science and technology can be misused.  Findings can be used to give false impressions in the same way that stats can be.

Science can't be misused - it's a process, and as soon as you aren't doing it you aren't doing science - check out NicholasMarks for a case in point - you can claim it's science, but it really isn't. Technology can't be misused - it can be retasked, but because it has no inherent moral stance, using it for something else is not 'misusing' it.

Quote
Perhaps the most famous one that I can think of was Kinsey's findings regarding the proportion of homosexuals in the population - 10% - based on a very small, untypical sample of society.  They may have 'no inherent morality or purpose', but the scientists who use them often will have these things.

And that wasn't science being misused, it was being poorly applied - recent findings suggest that he was perhaps conservative, and that most women are far more fluid in their sexuality than conventional wisdom would have it.

Quote
Quote
Similarly, religions cannot be 'misused', because there is no definitive 'use' in any of them: they are all subjective interpretations, and the ones that have survived best are the ones that are vague enough to lend themselves to multiple interpretation to weather storms of reality and knowledge. Religion is not something that can be applied, religion is the result of the collective application of faith.
See above.

No, those are fundamentally different points. You can't misuse science because as soon as you aren't doing it right you're not doing science. By contrast you can't misuse religion because there's no demonstrable 'right' or 'wrong' way.

Quote
Quote
I fail to see how following fairy-tales does that.
Why the sudden reference to fairy tales, O?  Are you suggesting that science and religion are fairy tales?

One of them, yes - can you guess which one?

Quote
Try replacing the word 'religions' with 'legislation', O.  You will realise that they both serve the same purpose.

Yes, and they both have an equally chequered history, and neither of them actually relies on supernatural events, but one of them claims it.

Quote
No, they haven't emerged 'despite the presence of these religions claiming ownership of morality'; they have emerged because of the presence of those religions, O.  We don't live in a moral vacuum, and today's morals are based on the principles of previous ones.

They are based on principles that have emerged during the tenure of particular religions, yes, but I see no basis for presuming they have emerged because of those religions, nor that those religions should lay particular claim to them. Religion has undoubtedly had an influence on history, and the people within it, that's no reason to presume that it has validity.
 
Quote
Quote
Religion has been very useful in developing close-knit communities, tribal support mechanism and the like. It has, however, also been useful in controlling large segments of the populace, maintaining imbalanced power systems, institutional misogyny, homophobia, racism, caste systems, slavery, arbitrary social exclusions and wars.
As has secularism and humanism, O.

Really? Can you show me an example of secularism maintaining imbalanced power systems, misogyny, homophobia, racism, caste systems, slavery etc.? Not merely failing to counter it, but actually maintaining it.

Quote
At the same time, it should be pointed out that belief that X, Y or Z behaviours are bad for society may well be, at least in part, the outcome of non-religious factors.  Our modern society can't claim to have only good morals.  If anything, our current morality status is no better than those of previous generations, societies or centuries.

That rather depends on what the basis of your morality is. If it's increased health, happiness, wellbeing and freedom then there are manifestly better and worse systems. If it's 'God' well then no there's no way to adequately measure, there are just arbitrary rules and everyone's take on them is equally (in)valid.
 
O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3440
  • βε ηερε νοω
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2015, 02:12:22 PM »

The cohesive effect of religions cannot be denied. Centuries ago when people lived separate and disparate lives in thousands of villages and towns around the world with each tribe being suspicious and scornful of the other....the only uniting factor was religion. It helped us to move away from the animal tendencies of mutual suspicion to mutual cooperation and a vision of unity.

Religion is the only emotional factor that supersedes all other distinctions such as geography, national, racial, linguistic, class and so on. Today we can see the cohesion between Hindus, Buddhists, Jews,  Christians, Muslims across the world irrespective of national boundaries and racial and linguistic differences.

In spite of atheism, science and other factors...even today religion is the prime source of morality, social control and self discipline around the world.  We have moved from hundreds of religions in earlier times to just five or six major religions for seven billion people worldwide today. A remarkable feat of uniting and maintaining a common moral fiber across humanity!

Religions have clearly succeeded in making humans more humanistic, more tolerant, more united,more ethical and moralistic than before.

Unfortunately there is no verifiable logic in your rhetoric Sriram. You could replace "religion" in the statement with all sorts of other words and make just as much (or little) sense : - from "sex", to "guns" or "weapons", to "horses", "gold", "drugs"or "alcohol".

My own pet candidate for the driver of humanity is "fashion". It is our ability to pick up and copy the actions of those around us, an ability for mimicry inherited from monkeys and other primates, that has helped us to develop morality, language, culture, agriculture, townships, trade and warfare, medicines, religion, philosophy, politics, science and, practically, everything else.
We didn't start the fire...

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4970
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2015, 06:41:13 AM »

Outrider,

1. I can't see why something cannot be misused. Science and technology are meant for the welfare of humans. If they are used in such a way as to destroy humans (bombs) it is a misuse. Climate change is due to misuse of technology.

Similarly religions are meant for social cohesion, social discipline, control of animal urges and spiritual development.  If  tribal suspicions and rivalries get the better of some people the same religion can be misused for war and terrorism.

2. Religions have deliberately suppressed individual self seeking because at a certain stage of development freedom is dysfunctional. It can lead to breakdown of society. Religions seek to control this tendency so as to build social cohesion and self discipline. Once most individuals have reached a certain  stage of self control and are beyond emotional surges, self control becomes natural to them and at this stage religions may not be necessary. 

Its like we don't allow small children all their indulgences. We fix rules and teach them self control and discipline in earlier stages ....but once they are grown up and know how to control their urges we allow them freedom.  All rules apply for those who need them.  If a person shows compassion, patience, self discipline and other such qualities as an adult...it reflects on his upbringing and the discipline he has been taught earlier on.  Its the same with general human development.

The fact that many if not most, humans today seem to possess sufficient self discipline, compassion, tolerance, universal vision and so on...shows that people have developed beyond petty differences and suspicions. This has been possible only because of the rules applied earlier on....which is through religions. 


Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11060
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2015, 09:44:18 AM »
1. I can't see why something cannot be misused. Science and technology are meant for the welfare of humans. If they are used in such a way as to destroy humans (bombs) it is a misuse. Climate change is due to misuse of technology.

No, they aren't for the welfare of humans. It would be lovely if they were, but they are purely to learn about nature works and then apply that to specific short-term goals. How we govern that application for the benefit of people is culture and politics and law, but the science and the technology are morally neutral. Climate change is not due to the 'misuse' of technology, it's due to the indiscriminate use of technology: power stations churning out CO2 are doing exactly what they are supposed to - converting chemical potential energy to electricity.

Quote
Similarly religions are meant for social cohesion, social discipline, control of animal urges and spiritual development.  If  tribal suspicions and rivalries get the better of some people the same religion can be misused for war and terrorism.

No, religions are to bring cohesion to tribal units. That some people have tried to overcome that and extend particular religions to all of humanity doesn't change that - all religions identify in-groups and out-groups (even if that's only 'believers' and 'non-believers').

Quote
2. Religions have deliberately suppressed individual self seeking because at a certain stage of development freedom is dysfunctional.

No it isn't.

Quote
It can lead to breakdown of society.

If those societies are about enforced conditions, yes. That's a good thing.

Quote
Religions seek to control this tendency so as to build social cohesion and self discipline.

You don't build self-discipline by controlling people.

Quote
Once most individuals have reached a certain  stage of self control and are beyond emotional surges, self control becomes natural to them and at this stage religions may not be necessary.

Welcome to the 20th century.

Quote
Its like we don't allow small children all their indulgences. We fix rules and teach them self control and discipline in earlier stages ....but once they are grown up and know how to control their urges we allow them freedom.

Some of us do. Some of us teach them that there's an eternal, ever-watching policeman looking over their spiritual shoulder making sure they enforce the 'right' rules on everyone else with sufficient vigour.

Quote
All rules apply for those who need them.  If a person shows compassion, patience, self discipline and other such qualities as an adult...it reflects on his upbringing and the discipline he has been taught earlier on.  Its the same with general human development.

And the societies that display that best are those that have shed the trappings of formal religion the most.

Quote
The fact that many if not most, humans today seem to possess sufficient self discipline, compassion, tolerance, universal vision and so on...shows that people have developed beyond petty differences and suspicions. This has been possible only because of the rules applied earlier on....which is through religions.

No, it's because those societies have realised that the petty, superstitious tribalism and mysticism of religion fails to deal with reality, and that a robust legal and cultural expectation on personal responsibility is more effective.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

'andles for forks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20079
  • Science is a tool.
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2015, 07:04:30 PM »
How about "The same way other primates manage to do it without religious beliefs."
How do you know? Have you discussed it with them?
I like the ''made up in the fourth century'' hypothesis but I also like Bart Ehrman. There's only one way to sort this out. Use contradictory evidence as it suits your argument wheeeeyyyyy!

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14152
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2015, 07:08:50 PM »
How do you know? Have you discussed it with them?
No, but primatologists have studied this sort of thing for decades and I've read them.
Porn gives young people wholly unrealistic ideas about how quickly a plumber will get to your house.

'andles for forks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20079
  • Science is a tool.
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2015, 07:13:35 PM »
Science and technology cannot be 'misused'
Complete shit.
I like the ''made up in the fourth century'' hypothesis but I also like Bart Ehrman. There's only one way to sort this out. Use contradictory evidence as it suits your argument wheeeeyyyyy!

'andles for forks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20079
  • Science is a tool.
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2015, 07:33:10 PM »
No, but primatologists have studied this sort of thing for decades and I've read them.
Hmmmm.......I suspect primatology has been carried out with a heftier reductionism than even scientists who test prayer while simultaneously holding that science does not do God.
I like the ''made up in the fourth century'' hypothesis but I also like Bart Ehrman. There's only one way to sort this out. Use contradictory evidence as it suits your argument wheeeeyyyyy!

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14152
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2015, 07:34:07 PM »
'Suspect' betrays the fact that you don't know and merely guess, then.
Porn gives young people wholly unrealistic ideas about how quickly a plumber will get to your house.

'andles for forks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20079
  • Science is a tool.
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2015, 07:39:19 PM »
'Suspect' betrays the fact that you don't know and merely guess, then.
OK then where can this conclusion that primates get by without religion........They seem to get by without a lot of human traits not withstanding............be found
I like the ''made up in the fourth century'' hypothesis but I also like Bart Ehrman. There's only one way to sort this out. Use contradictory evidence as it suits your argument wheeeeyyyyy!

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11060
Re: Religions have succeeded!
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2015, 09:38:31 PM »
Complete shit.

And as soon as you've caught your breath from that dazzling display you'll get around to maybe pretending like you've got a reason for disagreeing? I'm presuming you're disagreeing, and not just blogging your toileting habits.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints