Author Topic: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!  (Read 2337 times)

Owlswing

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How in the name of humanity can anyone, supposedly hiuman or Christian, justify this?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651484/I-thought-Id-seen-Philomena-And-I-nuns-secret-grave-800-babies-By-Martin-Sixsmith-exposed-Sisters-sold-children-fallen-girls.html

And people wonder why I have problems with Christianity?
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2015, 08:28:32 PM »
People do bad thing in the name of almost anything, it doesn't disprove everyone who takes that position
 The OP is like all the stuff asking Muslims to condemn. What happened in Paris. Me old mother would be shocked and condemn this but she isn't responsible for it.

Owlswing

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2015, 08:43:37 PM »
People do bad thing in the name of almost anything, it doesn't disprove everyone who takes that position
 The OP is like all the stuff asking Muslims to condemn. What happened in Paris. Me old mother would be shocked and condemn this but she isn't responsible for it.

What connection does your ol' mother have with Tuam? Her reaction, shock and condemnation, is what I would expect from any human being, Catholic or not. It is not what we are getting from the Church.

My problem is with the way in which virtually the entire Catholic Church, the Sisterhood that ran the place, the local Catholic clergy, are racing to distance themselves from it!

The hiding of the bodies of these children has achieved what it was intended to achieve - time for those responsible to "disappear" or be able to claim that they didn't know or don't remember.

The article makes it obvious that they are still doing this, the denial and the distancing, today.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 11:34:19 PM by Owlswing »
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2015, 08:52:48 PM »

You don't condemn a whole religion, millions of people;  or indeed any vast organisation, because of the failings of some.  How would any ordinary, average, Catholics, or any denomination, respond to the link?
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2015, 09:00:19 PM »
You don't condemn a whole religion, millions of people;  or indeed any vast organisation, because of the failings of some.  How would any ordinary, average, Catholics, or any denomination, respond to the link?

Yep, pretty much my feelings, and I am sure those of me old mother, who is RC. The point is surely to work to deal with the suffering caused, and seek to see how we avoid it in the future. It underlines for me that you cannot intertwine religion in this way with the state.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2015, 09:04:50 PM »
What connection does your ol' mother have with Tuam? He reaction, shock and condemnation, is what I would expect from any human being, Catholic or not. It is not what we are getting from the Church.

My problem is with the way in which virtually the entire Catholic Church, the Sisterhood that ran the place, the local Catholic clergy, are racing to distance themselves from it!

The hiding of the bodies of these children has achieved what it was intended to achieve - time for those responsible to "disappear" or be able to claim that they didn't know or don't remember.

The article makes it obvious that they are still doing this, the denial and the distancing, today.
you were the one looking for Christians to justify it, given that me mammy, (quick nod to Milo o'Shea), is an RC she might then be expected to cover it more than a Southern Baptist.

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2015, 09:40:35 PM »
How in the name of humanity can anyone, supposedly hiuman or Christian, justify this?

...

And people wonder why I have problems with Christianity?
OK, Matt, In order to be able to justify something, one has to know about it.  I'm afraid that I was in the dark about this particular event until you provided a link.  I think I would justify it in much the same way that your average Soviet citizen would have justified the Katyn massacre - in other words, they wouldn't have.  Instead they would have held up their hands in horror and disbelief instead.
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Owlswing

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2015, 11:38:13 PM »
Typical!

Not one comment of condemnation!

These people were not parishioners, like your mam, NS, they are the officers of the Church - supposed to show an example - what a crap example of, supposedly, Christ's love!

The women were denied even the most basic care, medication, the children allowed to die ibn pain and suffering, thrown into cesspit and forgotten.

And what is your answer?

You can't blame us! We didn't do it!

It was done in the name of your Christian God because the girls were Sinners. They might have been the children wrre not! This was a 20th century Slaughter of the Innocents.

Not one comment asking what has been done about finding those responsible!

Not one question about what the Church has done to find any children, if any, who survived.

If this is, or was, an example of your God's love, and according to those in charge of this branch of your Church, it was . . . then Hellfire is just not enough!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 11:53:56 PM by Owlswing »
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2015, 11:59:47 PM »
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. First you ask for justification and then you are wanting condemnation, but at base why? As I already raised this is like all those people wanting random Muslims to condemn what happened in Paris. I have no reason to suspect that any of the Christians on here would support this, so what is the point?

Men have done bad stuff, as have Scots, as have tall people. I am not responsible for that. I doubt there is an organisation or set of beliefs that that isn't true of either. So let he/she who isn't associated with evil dicks cast the first stone.

The facts are horrendous, concentrate on how you make that better for those who suffered, rather than seeking contrition from people not involved.

Owlswing

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2015, 12:46:13 AM »
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. First you ask for justification and then you are wanting condemnation, but at base why? As I already raised this is like all those people wanting random Muslims to condemn what happened in Paris. I have no reason to suspect that any of the Christians on here would support this, so what is the point?

Men have done bad stuff, as have Scots, as have tall people. I am not responsible for that. I doubt there is an organisation or set of beliefs that that isn't true of either. So let he/she who isn't associated with evil dicks cast the first stone.

The facts are horrendous, concentrate on how you make that better for those who suffered, rather than seeking contrition from people not involved.

I am NOT seeking contrition from those not involved.

What I am seeking is a an explanation of such behaviour can be explained as being, ever, considered to be part of the following of the Christian doctrine.

I am not asking if others did anything similar, I am saying that these actions were done specifically by the members, not the congtregations, of a specific religion - I know of no other religion where its officers have over an extended period condemned girls and children to such suffereing in the name of their God!

And all I get is dodge dodge dodge!

Just skip it - I'm getting the usual - let's close ranks and deny we are any different to any other group!

I asked, specifically - how in the name of humanity can anyone, supposedly hiuman or Christian, justify this?

NOt one of you, not even the Saintly BA, to whom I say, where did I condemn and entire religion by my question, thought to say the very least that I expected - as a human or Christian - YOU CANNOT!

Like I said - skip it!
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

ad_orientem

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2015, 07:04:28 AM »
Owlswing has a bee in his bonnet, but hhen he's a pagan.
Rationalism leads to Protestantism leads to atheism.

Gonnagle

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2015, 10:02:55 AM »
Dear Owlswing,

Quote
And people wonder why I have problems with Christianity?

You have a problem with Christianity, try walking a mile in my shoes.

When I read of a Christian condemning another religion I think, does Mathew 7 mean nothing to you.

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ad_orientem

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2015, 10:15:30 AM »
Dear Owlswing,

You have a problem with Christianity, try walking a mile in my shoes.

When I read of a Christian condemning another religion I think, does Mathew 7 mean nothing to you.

Gonnagle.

PS:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owjuIDwiKtU

What's Matthew 7 got to do with other religions?
Rationalism leads to Protestantism leads to atheism.

Gonnagle

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2015, 10:30:34 AM »
Dear ad,

Quote
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Quote
What's Matthew 7 got to do with other religions?

Nothing I suppose, but I think the thread is about Christian hypocrisy, Christian intolerance, the very dark side of Christianity, do we just dismiss it or maybe start a hashtag, not in my name :(

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ad_orientem

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2015, 10:33:10 AM »
The passage is about personal holiness (or lack of it) not false religions.
Rationalism leads to Protestantism leads to atheism.

Owlswing

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2015, 10:37:34 AM »
Dear Owlswing,

You have a problem with Christianity, try walking a mile in my shoes.

When I read of a Christian condemning another religion I think, does Mathew 7 mean nothing to you.

Gonnagle.

PS:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owjuIDwiKtU

Gonners (if I may be permitted to use that familiarity)

Having no idea where yours shoes have led you I cannot. Perhaps, in view of your comment, I should be glad of this. I have, over the years, walked through enough knee-deep shit to know just how much sticks and how hard it can be to get free of it. In fact, some of it sticks so hard you might never free yourself from it and its effects.

What I have issue with (what a polite way of putting what I feel that is!) is the fact that these iniquities were perpetrated in the name of the Christian God and of his son by the clergy and adherents of the religion based, supposedly, the book of rules of the former and the teachings of the latter. Yet the entire mess from parish priests to the Pontiff himself are in denial and refuse to take action against those still living who killed thousands, children who did not ask to be concieved much less did they ask to be born, mothers starved beaten and worked to death for the sin of having sex outside marriage. Yet where were those punishing the men who took the innocence of these women and left them to torture and death from the Church that made the rules that they, the fathers, (a standing prick has no conscience) so blithely ignored.

The Church has also made no efforts to aid the survivors and has, instead, done everything it can to deny that anything ever happened.

It is this turn your back attitude repeated on this topic that makes me almost physically sick.
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2015, 10:42:50 AM »
The passage is about personal holiness (or lack of it) not false religions.

I cannot find words that I would be allowed to publish in this Forum to say what I think of your attitude and your particualr version of this poisonous philosophy!

I will be laughing myself silly when you pass from this life and find yourself standing in front of Odin, or Zeus, or Allah, or Cerridwen and trying to find an answer to their question - "What am I going to do with you, Christian?"

It is just as likely as your getting a warm welcome from your God!
If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2015, 10:49:30 AM »
Dear ad,

Nothing I suppose, but I think the thread is about Christian hypocrisy, Christian intolerance, the very dark side of Christianity, do we just dismiss it or maybe start a hashtag, not in my name :(

Gonnagle.

Morning Gonners,

May I take you to task:  there is no dark side to Christianity, which is based on love;  but there is a dark side to some Christians;  just as there is to some Muslims, as we have so tragically seen; and indeed to all religious groups.

 To condemn a religion, and all its adherents on the basis of a few wicked people, is nothing more than point-scoring and ignorance.  Further, to suggest right-thinking Christian people do not condemn what happened, is a disgrace.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 02:06:42 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Gonnagle

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2015, 10:58:43 AM »
Dear ad,

Quote
The passage is about personal holiness

True, very true, it is also about pointing the finger.

Quote
not false religions.

Well I suppose me and you have different definitions of false religion, maybe the word I am looking for is hollow.

Where true religion starts for me, and maybe ends, call it a work in progress :o

Quote
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

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Gonnagle

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2015, 11:16:56 AM »
Dear Bashers,

Quote
May I take you to task:  there is no dark side to Christianity, which is based on love;  but there is a dark side to some Christians;  just as there is to some Muslims, as we have so tragically seen; and indeed to all religious groups.

You my old son ;) can take me to task anytime :P

Quote
but there is a dark side to some Christians

I don't have an argument with this, but as I am trying to explain to our ad, we, all Christians need to face up to past mistakes ( mistakes, definitely the wrong word ) confessing our past sins is not enough.

Owlswing is railing against ( and I think with justification ) the horrors which have happened in supposedly Christian establishments, he wants to see justice, retribution, and I think, evidence of this loving God we all profess to.

We can't point the finger until we have cleaned our own house.

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Gonnagle

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2015, 11:26:40 AM »
Dear Owlswing,

Quote
Having no idea where yours shoes have led you I cannot.

My rubbish posting again, what I mean't was from a Christian perspective, any self respecting Christian should hang their head in shame at the Tuam horrors, but at the same time should say, never again, not in my Lords name.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2015, 11:30:59 AM »
Why should any self respecting Christian hang their head in shame? We're back straddling Muslims to be ashamed of Paris and Beirut. Condemn it fair enough but feel shame when you are responsible.

Ad_o should feel shame about his lazy generalisation about pagans.

Gonnagle

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2015, 11:39:27 AM »
Dear Sane,

Quote
Why should any self respecting Christian hang their head in shame? We're back straddling Muslims to be ashamed of Paris and Beirut. Condemn it fair enough but feel shame when you are responsible.

Damn you man!! do you never get tired of being right all the time, which does not suppose that I am wrong, me wrong, ha!!

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Outrider

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2015, 11:48:57 AM »
Why should any self respecting Christian hang their head in shame?

Because by maintaining the idea that unsubstantiated beliefs in ancient superstitions are a valid philosophy you've fed into the cultural acceptance of religion that allows the underlying philosophy of these nutjobs to stand in the modern world.

Rather than being a violent fringe of an outdated superstition they are instead the violent of fringe of a mainstream position.

O.
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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2015, 11:55:25 AM »
I cannot find words that I would be allowed to publish in this Forum to say what I think of your attitude and your particualr version of this poisonous philosophy!

I will be laughing myself silly when you pass from this life and find yourself standing in front of Odin, or Zeus, or Allah, or Cerridwen and trying to find an answer to their question - "What am I going to do with you, Christian?"

It is just as likely as your getting a warm welcome from your God!

I am not afraid of your gods for they are nothing but men, idols and demons. If you really would like to see a complete ripping to shreds of the pagan gods then I'd suggest reading the first ten books of Blessed Augustine's City of God and you will never look at your gods seriously again.
Rationalism leads to Protestantism leads to atheism.