Author Topic: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!  (Read 2341 times)

Outrider

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2015, 10:32:05 PM »
O, the position you take is no less a 'nutjob' position.

How? How is my position  a 'nutjob' position? Can you show me the 'definitive' interpretation of Christianity, or Islam or Judaism? No, no-one can, most likely because there isn't one. In that absence there is no way to justify telling one person their belief system is invalid and someone else's is valid, we have to say that they're all equally likely.

We can object to the outcomes, certainly, but whilst 'moderate' religious belief is acceptable all religious belief is acceptable because it's impossible to differentiate between them. All you have is more or less desirable outcomes from an outsider's perspective. People are willing to kill in the hundreds, thousands for this, and yet none of you can demonstrate any reason to think that any of it's worth printing on toilet paper.

You're defending fairy tales, and fairy tales are killing people.

I'm not the nut-job in that scenario when I'm the one advocating putting the book back on the shelf.

O.
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Leonard James

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2015, 06:07:16 AM »
How? How is my position  a 'nutjob' position? Can you show me the 'definitive' interpretation of Christianity, or Islam or Judaism? No, no-one can, most likely because there isn't one. In that absence there is no way to justify telling one person their belief system is invalid and someone else's is valid, we have to say that they're all equally likely.

We can object to the outcomes, certainly, but whilst 'moderate' religious belief is acceptable all religious belief is acceptable because it's impossible to differentiate between them. All you have is more or less desirable outcomes from an outsider's perspective. People are willing to kill in the hundreds, thousands for this, and yet none of you can demonstrate any reason to think that any of it's worth printing on toilet paper.

You're defending fairy tales, and fairy tales are killing people.

I'm not the nut-job in that scenario when I'm the one advocating putting the book back on the shelf.

O.

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Hope

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2015, 10:53:06 AM »
How? How is my position  a 'nutjob' position? Can you show me the 'definitive' interpretation of Christianity, or Islam or Judaism? No, no-one can, most likely because there isn't one. In that absence there is no way to justify telling one person their belief system is invalid and someone else's is valid, we have to say that they're all equally likely.
I don't know the full ins and outs of Islam to be able to give anything definitive, but I could do so with both Christianity and Judaism.  I appreciate that there are humans who would probably disagree with me in these definitions, but then they would have to argue with the founder of those inter-related faiths, and not me.

Judaism teaches that the people of Israel were chosen, by the Creator God, to be his witnesses to the peoples living around them.  This choice didn't reflect anything that the people exhibited - intellect, strength, size, etc.  If anything, they were chosen because of their lack of strength and size.  They were to witness to the uniqueness of God, and his grace and mercy in the face of humanity's failings.

The Old Testament is testament to the way in which the people of Israel were less than successful in this role, to the extent that, for some of their leaders, the 'good news' that they were meant to share was only to be shared amongst themselves.

Christianity came about when God chose to 'reboot' the process and to widen the role of witnesses both in terms of who could be a witness and who could be the recipient of said witness.  Under the terms of this 'reboot', the tradition of annual sacrifice to ask for and receive forgiveness (both animal and other sacrifices) was relaced by a once for all sacrifice (once for all time and once for all people).  In the same way that the Old Testament Jews had to 'trust in' and accept the efficacy of their various sacrifices, so with the advent of the reboot, people of all nations simply have to 'trust in' and accept the efficacy of this once for all sacrifice.

Some choose to do so, some don't; its up to each individual to make that choice.
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Outrider

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2015, 12:06:40 PM »
I don't know the full ins and outs of Islam to be able to give anything definitive, but I could do so with both Christianity and Judaism.  I appreciate that there are humans who would probably disagree with me in these definitions, but then they would have to argue with the founder of those inter-related faiths, and not me.

That's fine, except that:
a) the 'founder' you refer to is probably a myth
b) even if he isn't, he's not here trying to stop this or clarify anything.

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Judaism teaches that the people of Israel were chosen, by the Creator God, to be his witnesses to the peoples living around them.  This choice didn't reflect anything that the people exhibited - intellect, strength, size, etc.  If anything, they were chosen because of their lack of strength and size.  They were to witness to the uniqueness of God, and his grace and mercy in the face of humanity's failings.

You don't see a tendency towards hostile action towards members of other tribes in that?

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The Old Testament is testament to the way in which the people of Israel were less than successful in this role, to the extent that, for some of their leaders, the 'good news' that they were meant to share was only to be shared amongst themselves.

I'm sure that's one interpretation, but I'm equally sure that there are some interpretations that say the ancient Jews were absolutely fine, and that this justifies, say, occupying swathes of what modern politics considers Palestine.

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Christianity came about when God chose to 'reboot' the process and to widen the role of witnesses both in terms of who could be a witness and who could be the recipient of said witness.  Under the terms of this 'reboot', the tradition of annual sacrifice to ask for and receive forgiveness (both animal and other sacrifices) was relaced by a once for all sacrifice (once for all time and once for all people).  In the same way that the Old Testament Jews had to 'trust in' and accept the efficacy of their various sacrifices, so with the advent of the reboot, people of all nations simply have to 'trust in' and accept the efficacy of this once for all sacrifice.

Again, one interpretation, but not the only one.

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Some choose to do so, some don't; its up to each individual to make that choice.

And how does that enable us to turn to people who believe other things from their interpretation and say 'that's not a valid interpretation'?

I don't doubt that there are non-hostile interpretations. I doubt there's a 'true' interpretation, because I think it's all made up in the first place, but even if it isn't hundreds of years of theology hasn't produced a definitive understanding, and even if it had the overwhelming majority of the faithful have no idea of the involved complex theology of scholars.

Those are the people that are out killing in the names of gods. If your idea of God has validity in the absence of anything definitive, why is their idea any less valid?

That's the problem, that's why ANY religious belief is a mandate for all of it. That's why religious moderatism is the political shield behind which extremism hides, because as long as moderates cling to their religions and say 'Religion is valid' we are on the back foot against the extremists.

O.
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Hope

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2015, 02:53:09 PM »
That's fine, except that:
a) the 'founder' you refer to is probably a myth
b) even if he isn't, he's not here trying to stop this or clarify anything.
That's your opinion - which you are perfectly entitled to, O.  It's not mine.

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You don't see a tendency towards hostile action towards members of other tribes in that?
Only if you feel that the 'model' tribe isn't equally bad as any other - and of course, if that was the case, what would they be being able to 'model'?

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I'm sure that's one interpretation, but I'm equally sure that there are some interpretations that say the ancient Jews were absolutely fine, and that this justifies, say, occupying swathes of what modern politics considers Palestine.
Maybe there are, but can you indicate where, in the Old Testament, this 'absolutely fine' thinking comes from?

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Again, one interpretation, but not the only one.
In fact, that is pretty well the standard Christian understanding.  OK, I've put it into more modern language than many might be accustomed to, but that is the basic tenet of Christianity.  I accept that there are a lot of other ideas - such as the place of celicacy, or of women in ministry, or the precise nature of substitutionary atonement, or ..., or ..., but what I have outlined above is pretty well core.

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And how does that enable us to turn to people who believe other things from their interpretation and say 'that's not a valid interpretation'?
I'd use much the same way that historians might use about history - 'where does your interpretation fit with the totality of the documentary and other evidence we have?'

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I don't doubt that there are non-hostile interpretations. I doubt there's a 'true' interpretation, because I think it's all made up in the first place, but even if it isn't hundreds of years of theology hasn't produced a definitive understanding, and even if it had the overwhelming majority of the faithful have no idea of the involved complex theology of scholars.
As I said above - "That's your opinion - which you are perfectly entitled to, O.  It's not mine."  I have spoken to and with Christians from across the theological spectrum, cultural spectrum, wealth spectrum, etc. over the years, and what I outlined above, albeit fairly simplistically, is the core to their thinking.

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Those are the people that are out killing in the names of gods. If your idea of God has validity in the absence of anything definitive, why is their idea any less valid?
Can you produce a single verse, let a reasoned and scripture-wide theme, that says that Christians ought to be out killing people?

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That's the problem, that's why ANY religious belief is a mandate for all of it. That's why religious moderatism is the political shield behind which extremism hides, because as long as moderates cling to their religions and say 'Religion is valid' we are on the back foot against the extremists.
OK, but then you could replace the terms 'religious/religions' with 'political' and you'd have an equally legitimate argument.  I don't see people suggesting that politics - which is most definitely a man-made concept - should be 'got rid of' or that we ought to be 'nibbling away at the politic-ists', to adapt a phrase ippy introduced.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 02:55:08 PM by Hope »
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Outrider

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2015, 03:37:31 PM »
Only if you feel that the 'model' tribe isn't equally bad as any other - and of course, if that was the case, what would they be being able to 'model'?

Not really - it doesn't matter how good or bad they were in comparison to any others, it's the idea of a 'chosen' people that engenders the idea of special treatment and permits mistreatment of 'other'.

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Maybe there are, but can you indicate where, in the Old Testament, this 'absolutely fine' thinking comes from?

It really doesn't matter whether I can, and to a degree it doesn't matter whether you can, it only matters that they can.

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In fact, that is pretty well the standard Christian understanding.  OK, I've put it into more modern language than many might be accustomed to, but that is the basic tenet of Christianity.  I accept that there are a lot of other ideas - such as the place of celicacy, or of women in ministry, or the precise nature of substitutionary atonement, or ..., or ..., but what I have outlined above is pretty well core.

And yet we see groups that don't hold to that, or who claim to hold to that and then have caveats and provisos.

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I'd use much the same way that historians might use about history - 'where does your interpretation fit with the totality of the documentary and other evidence we have?'

The overwhelming majority of believers, though, are not highly educated people with a knowledge of the historical context. Quite the opposite, the correlation is that people who are more highly educated are less likely to be believers.

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As I said above - "That's your opinion - which you are perfectly entitled to, O.  It's not mine."  I have spoken to and with Christians from across the theological spectrum, cultural spectrum, wealth spectrum, etc. over the years, and what I outlined above, albeit fairly simplistically, is the core to their thinking.

And, again, it's exactly the same base materials that justified the Crusades, that justified slavery - and justified abolition - and justified the political manouevring of the English Civil War, and justified centuries of anti-Semitism... It's open to interpretation, it isn't precise and there's no way to update it, but at the same time the nature of the idea of gods embodies anyone's heartfelt interpretation with the weight of God behind it.

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Can you produce a single verse, let a reasoned and scripture-wide theme, that says that Christians ought to be out killing people?

Metaphorically, yes. An absolute instruction to kill, not that I can immediately think of, but that's the object lesson of large swathes of the Old Testament that Jesus endorses (not that you accept THAT interpretation of THAT particular component); the description of segments of the populace (i.e. black people, homosexuals, women) as inherently less worthy or deserving of opprobrium. Couple those two concepts and violence is not only justified it's actively encouraged.

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OK, but then you could replace the terms 'religious/religions' with 'political' and you'd have an equally legitimate argument.

Some political systems, yes, but not all. The problem, ultimately, is the idea of an absolute, unquestionable authority. In religion you have gods or god, in (say) Soviet Russia you had Stalin, in Nazi Germany you had Hitler and the Nazi party. Other political systems balance that power out so that it doesn't get focussed anywhere, so that no-one and nothing is the absolute authority.

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I don't see people suggesting that politics - which is most definitely a man-made concept - should be 'got rid of' or that we ought to be 'nibbling away at the politic-ists', to adapt a phrase ippy introduced.

Politics, no, but fascism? Communism - some would say that's inherently centralised and authoritarian, others would contest that it doesn't need to be but the practical applications in history have happened that way.

O.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2015, 05:47:40 PM »
Heck of a lot of pretentious rubbish in this thread.  Christianity is a belief in the life and teachings, and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 05:54:59 PM by BashfulAnthony »
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Shaker

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2015, 06:40:02 PM »
Heck of a lot of pretentious rubbish in this thread.  Christianity is a belief in the life and teachings, and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Glad we cleared that one up after all these years ::)
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2015, 07:30:15 PM »
Glad we cleared that one up after all these years ::)

Well, obviously the uninformed, and biased, need to be reminded constantly.
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2015, 07:33:26 PM »
Well, obviously the uninformed, and biased, need to be reminded constantly.
No, only once, and then the uninformed have been informed so can no longer be uninformed.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2015, 07:36:56 PM »
No, only once, and then the uninformed have been informed so can no longer be uninformed.

Right, but that's assuming they had a clue what you were telling them in the first place!   And then there are the dumbbells who pretend not to know, just for the sake of argument  (they've been doing it for years!)  Wonder which you are?
BA.

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It is my commandment that you love one another."

Hope

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2015, 09:01:18 PM »
No, only once, and then the uninformed have been informed so can no longer be uninformed.
Not sure that that necessarily works, Shakes.  Informing someone of something doesn't guarantee that they hear what they are being informed of.  So, someone can remain uninformed regardless of how many times one informs them of something.  It all has to do with the linguistic notion of 'exchange'.    :)
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Outrider

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2015, 09:04:59 PM »
Heck of a lot of pretentious rubbish in this thread.  Christianity is a belief in the life and teachings, and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Or, from the outside, a hell of a lot of denial in this thread.

Christianity at its best might be a belief in the more charitable teachings of Jesus, perhaps. Christianity at its worst is a belief in the less civilised lessons of Jesus (relatively few, I'll admit), his disciples and his espousement of the Old Testament.

Christianity is the sum of the actions of people who believe in a divine Jesus, and that's a very, very mixed bag.

O.
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Shaker

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2015, 09:05:39 PM »
Not sure that that necessarily works, Shakes.  Informing someone of something doesn't guarantee that they hear what they are being informed of.  So, someone can remain uninformed regardless of how many times one informs them of something.
Yes, very true - I know of a prime example of same.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2015, 09:08:07 PM »
Or, from the outside, a hell of a lot of denial in this thread.

Christianity at its best might be a belief in the more charitable teachings of Jesus, perhaps. Christianity at its worst is a belief in the less civilised lessons of Jesus (relatively few, I'll admit), his disciples and his espousement of the Old Testament.

Christianity is the sum of the actions of people who believe in a divine Jesus, and that's a very, very mixed bag.

O.

Apart from anything else, Jesus came to replace the archaic views of the OT, with His new Gospel of "Good News."
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 09:43:22 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Outrider

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2015, 09:40:36 PM »
Apart from anything else, Jesus came to replace the archaic views of the OT, with His new Gospel of "Good News."

That's your take, perhaps, Hope's too from memory - apologies if I've mischaracterised either of you in that. It's not other people's view, who think that Jesus explicitly reinforced the Old Testament laws (Sassy?).

Then things just devolve into the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy with added sky-fairy, and four generations down the line you're blowing people up at restaurants and claiming that 'it's not religion, it's politics, just ask those Proddy/Sunni/Jewish bastards*'...

O.

* Insert religious slur of choice, obviously.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2015, 09:47:05 PM »
That's your take, perhaps, Hope's too from memory - apologies if I've mischaracterised either of you in that. It's not other people's view, who think that Jesus explicitly reinforced the Old Testament laws (Sassy?).

Then things just devolve into the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy with added sky-fairy, and four generations down the line you're blowing people up at restaurants and claiming that 'it's not religion, it's politics, just ask those Proddy/Sunni/Jewish bastards*'...

O.

* Insert religious slur of choice, obviously.

Sorry Sassy, but you got that wrong.

No true Christian is blowing up anything.  When you talk of such people, you are talking about homicidal maniacs, not true believers.  To a Christian, all life is sacrosanct.  Anybody preaching otherwise is wrong, or nuts, or both.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Outrider

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2015, 09:48:43 PM »
Sorry Sassy, but you got that wrong.

No true Christian is blowing up anything.  When you talk of such people, you are talking about homicidal maniacs, not true believers.  To a Christian, all life is sacrosanct.  Anybody preaching otherwise is wrong, or nuts, or both.

I'm so glad you avoided the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy - having had it called out in advance you'd have to be a massive tool to go and make exactly that pathetic excuse for an argument.

(That, by the way, was 'irony'. Look it up, you appear to be naturally immune)

O.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2015, 10:04:06 PM »
I'm so glad you avoided the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy - having had it called out in advance you'd have to be a massive tool to go and make exactly that pathetic excuse for an argument.

(That, by the way, was 'irony'. Look it up, you appear to be naturally immune)

O.

No; I just ignore such meagre comments.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Shaker

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2015, 10:17:21 PM »
Probably best: how you would try to make that argument and square it with your attempt to convince us that it isn't the No True Scotsman fallacy would set you a-squirming for pages and pages and pages.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 10:33:54 PM by Shaker »
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2015, 10:48:47 PM »
Probably best: how you would t

Oh dear!  Now look what I've done:  I've gone and woken Shaker up.  Sorry, mate;  I know you need your beauty sleep; but let's be honest, it ain't working.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Leonard James

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2015, 06:18:10 AM »
I'm so glad you avoided the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy - having had it called out in advance you'd have to be a massive tool to go and make exactly that pathetic excuse for an argument.

(That, by the way, was 'irony'. Look it up, you appear to be naturally immune)

O.

BA is immune to any facts that don't agree with his version of the Bible.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Tuam and other places - come on - how doers you God justify this!
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2015, 12:09:10 PM »
Probably best: how you would try to make that argument and square it with your attempt to convince us that it isn't the No True Scotsman fallacy would set you a-squirming for pages and pages and pages.

Oh dear!  Now look what I've done:  I've gone and woken Shaker up.  Sorry, mate;  I know you need your beauty sleep; but let's be honest, it ain't working.
BA.

Jesus said to him, 的 am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."