Author Topic: Discrimination  (Read 1134 times)

Rose

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Discrimination
« on: December 18, 2015, 01:03:15 PM »
I was reading about mother Teresa on the BBC news and it mentioned adoption agencies in India linked to the church.
Quote
The charity said it was forced to close the centres because India's new adoption laws, allowing single, divorced and separated couples to adopt, went against its religious views.

I'd heard the resulting hoohah when it was about gay people but never realised they also excluded those groups
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2015, 01:10:55 PM »
I was reading about mother Teresa on the BBC news and it mentioned adoption agencies in India linked to the church.
I'd heard the resulting hoohah when it was about gay people but never realised they also excluded those groups
The notion of adoption agencies being 'forced to close' because they don't want to comply with the law is a total misnomer - no-one is forcing them to close, they are merely expected to comply with the law just as everyone else is.

Rose

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2015, 01:15:10 PM »
The notion of adoption agencies being 'forced to close' because they don't want to comply with the law is a total misnomer - no-one is forcing them to close, they are merely expected to comply with the law just as everyone else is.

They weren't forced to close in the uk due to those groups were they?, as they only seem to have cut up rough in India .

Double standards?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 01:17:42 PM by Rose »
Ramblin' rose, ramblin' rose
Why you ramble, no one knows
Wild and wind-blown, that's how you've grown
Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
When your ramblin' days are gone

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 01:17:45 PM »
They weren't forced to close in the uk due to those groups were they?, as they only seem to have cut up rough in India .
They weren't forced to close in the UK full stop. But what wasn't acceptable would be for them to fail to comply with the law, whether in the UK or India.

Frankly if an adoption agency is fixated on their religious beliefs rather than putting the best interests of the child first and foremost, then good riddance.

Rose

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 01:22:46 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-35129463

They are going to make mother Teresa a saint next year.

That's the link that started my op ;)
Ramblin' rose, ramblin' rose
Why you ramble, no one knows
Wild and wind-blown, that's how you've grown
Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
When your ramblin' days are gone

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 01:32:09 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-35129463

They are going to make mother Teresa a saint next year.

That's the link that started my op ;)
There are all sorts of dodgy aspects to her work as far as I am concerned. Some acts, some acts of omission (i.e. failure to provide the levels of care that her funding and ability to pull in money should require), plus she had a rather negative effect on other charities and care providers who found her presence sucked the life and funding out of their operations (I know this directly from the experiences of the brother of an ex-colleague of mine). Plus she created the impression of Kolkata as a passive victim mentality society, when of course the best thing for everyone in Kolkata is progress and development that lifts people out of poverty rather than failing to take action and simply providing very limited end of life care.

In my world it is better to help people to live, rather then to help them to die in a slightly better way.

Rose

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2015, 01:34:57 PM »
Ippy has started a thread on it in the Christian section  ;)

Just noticed it.
Ramblin' rose, ramblin' rose
Why you ramble, no one knows
Wild and wind-blown, that's how you've grown
Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
When your ramblin' days are gone

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2015, 02:20:55 PM »
They weren't forced to close in the UK full stop. But what wasn't acceptable would be for them to fail to comply with the law, whether in the UK or India.

Frankly if an adoption agency is fixated on their religious beliefs rather than putting the best interests of the child first and foremost, then good riddance.

So you would rather kids stayed in an orphanage than lived with RC's?
Oh dear, sounds horribly like "bigotry".

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2015, 02:45:17 PM »
So you would rather kids stayed in an orphanage than lived with RC's?
Oh dear, sounds horribly like "bigotry".
Where did I ever say that? I didn't.

I said that any adoption agency must put the child's best interest first and therefore look for the best adoptive family regardless of sexuality, marital status etc.

Actually refusing to countenance gay, unmarried or single people as adopters is much more likely to result in the child remaining in an orphanage as it would reduce the potential pool of adopters.

ippy

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2015, 03:03:51 PM »
We had already adopted two mixed race boys, tried to adopt a young mixed race girl from Bernardos, we were turned down because, using their terms, we were both white.

Try to get your heads around that one.

One charity that doesn't get much of a donation from us. 

ippy

Rose

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2015, 10:30:00 AM »
Where did I ever say that? I didn't.

I said that any adoption agency must put the child's best interest first and therefore look for the best adoptive family regardless of sexuality, marital status etc.

Actually refusing to countenance gay, unmarried or single people as adopters is much more likely to result in the child remaining in an orphanage as it would reduce the potential pool of adopters.

The problem though is that people don't agree on what is best for the child.

I'm sure the RC agencies in their own way, think that by placing a child in a model stable family, they are doing the best for the child.

I'm surprised they allow prospective parents to be other than RC. ( following their seeming logic)

The only way I excuse discrimination in this respect is if the original parents have left such instructions in their wills etc.

An example would be a set of black parents who wanted their child ( should something happen to them) to be brought up by a black couple who shared their ethnic identity and language.

Or if they are of a faith/ religion and want their child brought up in it, which I think was the original idea of God parents.

It does of course run across some socially unacceptable ideas, which is discrimination.

However I do think parents should be able to have some say, and they should be listened to.

My only experience was with a foster child of 15 who gave her child away for adoption.

She met the future parents and she did have some say, so I think the state does sometimes listen, for all the horror stories that you can find on the Internet.

Parents also may have ideas on what is best for their offspring.

There are lots of children who need a loving home and as a standard there should be no discrimination ( unless the parents have left instructions.)

I think it is sometimes important to adopted children to have a sense of roots and the past.

I have only known one person who really didn't care, most I have come across do a lot of searching.

Giving parents some say, or allowing them some requests gives the child a link with their past, rather than uprooting them.

I wouldn't have wanted my two children brought up by very strict religious parents for example, Scientologists or JW or even Catholic.

It is discrimination, but I wouldn't have wanted them to go to someone ( like the evangelist Christians that Floo describes).

I would have wanted someone who was broader in their religious outlook, with an open and enquiring attitude. Atheists wouldn't be excluded but JW would have been.

When you have children you don't want them brought up by some religious code if you feel it's damaging.

In that way, I feel parents should be able to discriminate.

However it's different when agencies discriminate, because it's institutional discrimination and has nothing to do with the parents.

I can't help it, I discriminate, that's because I love my children.

I'm sure the truth is, as parents we all have situations which we would be unhappy about should something have happened to us.

On one hand I get the whole agency discrimination thing on the other, I feel it's something only parents should do and then only if they feel strongly.






Ramblin' rose, ramblin' rose
Why you ramble, no one knows
Wild and wind-blown, that's how you've grown
Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
When your ramblin' days are gone

ippy

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2015, 12:41:36 PM »
The problem though is that people don't agree on what is best for the child.

I'm sure the RC agencies in their own way, think that by placing a child in a model stable family, they are doing the best for the child.

I'm surprised they allow prospective parents to be other than RC. ( following their seeming logic)

The only way I excuse discrimination in this respect is if the original parents have left such instructions in their wills etc.

An example would be a set of black parents who wanted their child ( should something happen to them) to be brought up by a black couple who shared their ethnic identity and language.

Or if they are of a faith/ religion and want their child brought up in it, which I think was the original idea of God parents.

It does of course run across some socially unacceptable ideas, which is discrimination.

However I do think parents should be able to have some say, and they should be listened to.

My only experience was with a foster child of 15 who gave her child away for adoption.

She met the future parents and she did have some say, so I think the state does sometimes listen, for all the horror stories that you can find on the Internet.

Parents also may have ideas on what is best for their offspring.

There are lots of children who need a loving home and as a standard there should be no discrimination ( unless the parents have left instructions.)

I think it is sometimes important to adopted children to have a sense of roots and the past.

I have only known one person who really didn't care, most I have come across do a lot of searching.

Giving parents some say, or allowing them some requests gives the child a link with their past, rather than uprooting them.

I wouldn't have wanted my two children brought up by very strict religious parents for example, Scientologists or JW or even Catholic.

It is discrimination, but I wouldn't have wanted them to go to someone ( like the evangelist Christians that Floo describes).

I would have wanted someone who was broader in their religious outlook, with an open and enquiring attitude. Atheists wouldn't be excluded but JW would have been.

When you have children you don't want them brought up by some religious code if you feel it's damaging.

In that way, I feel parents should be able to discriminate.

However it's different when agencies discriminate, because it's institutional discrimination and has nothing to do with the parents.

I can't help it, I discriminate, that's because I love my children.

I'm sure the truth is, as parents we all have situations which we would be unhappy about should something have happened to us.

On one hand I get the whole agency discrimination thing on the other, I feel it's something only parents should do and then only if they feel strongly.

If I was to tell you about the general run of adoption societies of all kinds in the late seventies to the early eighties, well you couldn't make it up, if I related some of the nonsense we had to go through I very much doubt you'd believe me.

We still managed to get hold of two eight week old baby boys, in spite of them.

ippy

Rose

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2015, 01:00:59 PM »
If I was to tell you about the general run of adoption societies of all kinds in the late seventies to the early eighties, well you couldn't make it up, if I related some of the nonsense we had to go through I very much doubt you'd believe me.

We still managed to get hold of two eight week old baby boys, in spite of them.

ippy

I probably would believe you ippy.

🌹

At least you have them, how old are they now?

 :)
Ramblin' rose, ramblin' rose
Why you ramble, no one knows
Wild and wind-blown, that's how you've grown
Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
When your ramblin' days are gone

Floo

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2015, 01:54:53 PM »
If I was to tell you about the general run of adoption societies of all kinds in the late seventies to the early eighties, well you couldn't make it up, if I related some of the nonsense we had to go through I very much doubt you'd believe me.

We still managed to get hold of two eight week old baby boys, in spite of them.

ippy

Do you remember the 'Be my parent' book,  it featured children offered for adoption from all over the UK? The two boys we adopted in the 80s, joined our family of three birth daughters in 1982 and 1986. They were both considered hard to place, the elder boy because he was nine, black, and has moderate learning difficulties. The younger boy was 13 months old with Down's Syndrome.

The social services responsible for the adoption of our eldest son were totally reprehensible in their handling of the situation. They were economical with the truth about his situation, which led to a great number of problems further down the line! >:(

ippy

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 03:17:53 PM »
I probably would believe you ippy.

🌹

At least you have them, how old are they now?

 :)

It's water under the bridge now, but I will say I hope the rather strange people we have had to deal with in the past are long gone.

They are both in their mid thirties and rather annoyingly make me look like a midget.

ippy

ippy

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2015, 03:37:53 PM »
Do you remember the 'Be my parent' book,  it featured children offered for adoption from all over the UK? The two boys we adopted in the 80s, joined our family of three birth daughters in 1982 and 1986. They were both considered hard to place, the elder boy because he was nine, black, and has moderate learning difficulties. The younger boy was 13 months old with Down's Syndrome.

The social services responsible for the adoption of our eldest son were totally reprehensible in their handling of the situation. They were economical with the truth about his situation, which led to a great number of problems further down the line! >:(

The be my parent book was a brilliant idea, I've no idea if it's still about or not.

ippy

Rose

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2015, 03:45:04 PM »
It's water under the bridge now, but I will say I hope the rather strange people we have had to deal with in the past are long gone.

They are both in their mid thirties and rather annoyingly make me look like a midget.

ippy

LOL

My two sons do that anyway, their dad is 6'2

I'm 5ft how tall are you? ( I get nicknamed the hobbit  :-[ )

They are all useful for getting things off high shelves but have to be watched if installing any mirrors, as it's messy and undignified to jump while putting on lipstick  ;).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 03:47:46 PM by Rose »
Ramblin' rose, ramblin' rose
Why you ramble, no one knows
Wild and wind-blown, that's how you've grown
Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
When your ramblin' days are gone

ippy

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2015, 04:32:08 PM »
LOL

My two sons do that anyway, their dad is 6'2

I'm 5ft how tall are you? ( I get nicknamed the hobbit  :-[ )

They are all useful for getting things off high shelves but have to be watched if installing any mirrors, as it's messy and undignified to jump while putting on lipstick  ;).

I'm the national average 5ft 9 and a half, well, It may have altered a bit since I first heard that, I have to keep my wife indoors when the circus comes to town, (4-11), swivel mirrors, or vertical long mirrors that's the only thing that works here.

My youngest lad is 6-3 and broad all muscle, there's more fat on a chip than him, he fills the doorway when he comes in, the other one is 6-1 more Lionel Richie, app.

ippy



   

Floo

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2015, 05:49:22 PM »
The be my parent book was a brilliant idea, I've no idea if it's still about or not.

ippy

I don't think it is.

Hope

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Re: Discrimination
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2015, 06:22:20 PM »
Frankly if an adoption agency is fixated on their religious beliefs rather than putting the best interests of the child first and foremost, then good riddance.
The problem can be that they may well be fixated on the latter, and believe that legal changes are more detrimental to the well-being of the children than beneficial.  In a sense, therefore, it can be said that they have been forced to close because the new social mores appear, to them, to be retrogressive, as opposed to progressive.
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