Author Topic: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?  (Read 2000 times)

Jack Knave

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0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« on: December 18, 2015, 07:44:28 PM »
If the universe is expanding then couldn't we in theory metaphorically wind it back and find where it all took place. Kind of join the dots and triangulate back to the position where it happened?

Udayana

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2015, 07:58:13 PM »
Good project .. just make sure you understand what "the universe" is and exactly what is expanding :)

Please post the postcode here when you are done so we can pop it into our satnavs and have nice day out!
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Shaker

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2015, 07:59:25 PM »
Bit of a misunderstanding of the BB, Jack, I fear - when the BB occurred the inflation of the proto-universe took place literally everywhere because that was the universe at that stage. Your question implies (which is very common amongst lots of people trying to wrap their heads around it) that the expansion of the universe took place in something, like blowing up a balloon inside a room, when in fact the expansion was of everything there was so you can't talk of an outside.

http://futurism.com/where-did-the-big-bang-happen-wheres-the-center-of-the-universe/
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 08:09:21 PM by Shaker »
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Jack Knave

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 08:49:34 PM »
Good project .. just make sure you understand what "the universe" is and exactly what is expanding :)

Please post the postcode here when you are done so we can pop it into our satnavs and have nice day out!
I was asking the question not promising to do the deed and get back to you all. In theory is it possible?

Udayana

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 08:54:55 PM »
Sorry, sadly no, the concept itself is flawed. See Shaker's post+ link.
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Maeght

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2015, 08:10:57 AM »
I was asking the question not promising to do the deed and get back to you all. In theory is it possible?

No - it happened everywhere.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 08:12:35 AM by Maeght »

Sriram

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2015, 09:09:56 AM »
No - it happened everywhere.



What do you mean by 'everywhere'.....when there is no space?

Shaker

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2015, 09:12:26 AM »


What do you mean by 'everywhere'.....when there is no space?
What are you on about?
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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2015, 12:49:50 PM »
Bit of a misunderstanding of the BB, Jack, I fear - when the BB occurred the inflation of the proto-universe took place literally everywhere because that was the universe at that stage. Your question implies (which is very common amongst lots of people trying to wrap their heads around it) that the expansion of the universe took place in something, like blowing up a balloon inside a room, when in fact the expansion was of everything there was so you can't talk of an outside.

http://futurism.com/where-did-the-big-bang-happen-wheres-the-center-of-the-universe/
That's not the only theory surely Shaker what about the numerous multiverse proposals?
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Shaker

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2015, 12:52:54 PM »
That's not the only theory surely Shaker what about the numerous multiverse proposals?
Doesn't actually alter anything. If the multiverse is an umbrella term merely for a conglomeration of island or baby universes being born all the time, then whatever conditions apply in one BB scenario - our universe - could well apply in all of them.
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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2015, 03:06:30 PM »
Doesn't actually alter anything. If the multiverse is an umbrella term merely for a conglomeration of island or baby universes being born all the time, then whatever conditions apply in one BB scenario - our universe - could well apply in all of them.
But they must, if plural be born, into something or is it like the tardis when it materialises inside itself?
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Jack Knave

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2015, 06:11:21 PM »
Bit of a misunderstanding of the BB, Jack, I fear - when the BB occurred the inflation of the proto-universe took place literally everywhere because that was the universe at that stage. Your question implies (which is very common amongst lots of people trying to wrap their heads around it) that the expansion of the universe took place in something, like blowing up a balloon inside a room, when in fact the expansion was of everything there was so you can't talk of an outside.

http://futurism.com/where-did-the-big-bang-happen-wheres-the-center-of-the-universe/
Then the universe isn't expanding if it hasn't anything to expand into. In effect there is no sense of size since it is everything at all moments, and what we see is an illusion.

We are living within the singularity.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 06:24:00 PM by Jack Knave »

Hope

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2015, 06:14:35 PM »
Sorry, sadly no, the concept itself is flawed. See Shaker's post+ link.
But, in effect, isn't that what the Large Hydron Collider was built to investigate, Ud?
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Maeght

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2015, 08:06:53 PM »


What do you mean by 'everywhere'.....when there is no space?

Everything which now exists (all mass and spacetime of the universe) existed in the singularity which then expanded, so it wasn't an event happening in a void of existence but an expansion of all existence at the same time - as far as I understand the theory anyway.

Udayana

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 09:36:05 PM »
But, in effect, isn't that what the Large Hydron Collider was built to investigate, Ud?

The LHC is basically about smashing particle beams together and seeing what results. This will help us reveal and understand the properties of fundamental particles and forces. So far it has confirmed the existence of the higgs boson and confirmed the "standard model" of particle physics. In the future it could provide data to support models such as supersymmetry and string theory. It could provide evidence indicating that the big bang could not have occurred, even that we exist in a steady state universe.

However Jacks's question has a deeper, logical, problem: We will never be able to say where the origin of "space" was when space-time itself did not exist. We need "space" to already exist in order to answer "where" questions.

The root of the issue is that when discussing these ideas and models we have a tendency to "visualise" them - it is part of the way we understand things - translating them into situations we are already familiar with - hence the analogies with balloons being blown up and so on. It can help to an extent, but it is easy to be misled - there is no reason to think that whatever makes up reality can be visualised by brains that evolved to deal with only certain aspects of it at particular scales. Often, being able to describe and work with things mathematically might be the best we can do.

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Hope

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2015, 10:08:02 PM »
The LHC is basically about smashing particle beams together and seeing what results. This will help us reveal and understand the properties of fundamental particles and forces. So far it has confirmed the existence of the higgs boson and confirmed the "standard model" of particle physics. In the future it could provide data to support models such as supersymmetry and string theory. It could provide evidence indicating that the big bang could not have occurred, even that we exist in a steady state universe.
I agree with the later part of your post, Uda.  Just not sure about this paragraph.  Yes, "the LHC is basically about smashing particle beams together and seeing what results", but I've always understood that te purpose of all this particle smashing was to get back to the fundamentals of matter and to be able to work out what the hell happened in thsoe nanoseconds following the BB.  The other benefits are little more that incidental to the main purpose.  At least, that is what I have been told by folk who work there.
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Sriram

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2015, 04:42:22 AM »
Everything which now exists (all mass and spacetime of the universe) existed in the singularity which then expanded, so it wasn't an event happening in a void of existence but an expansion of all existence at the same time - as far as I understand the theory anyway.


Yeah...yeah...I know the idea. All those are so many words... but what do they mean in real 'physical' terms?!

We talk of a Singularity which is no more than a point, from which the universe arose. We then talk of a sudden expansion (inflation). We then talk of the creation happening everywhere and not in one place (where everywhere if there is no space?).  We then talk of multiple universes existing simultaneously. We then talk of an expanding universe and Dark Energy. We then talk of light from the Big bang arriving on earth after 13 billion years.

All these things don't add up. I do concede that our limited logic and human capabilities may be insufficient to fathom such matters. My point is that I don't think anyone has any idea what exactly happened and how (and we are not likely to!). So...we should stop pretending that we do.

I think its only in a simulated universe (like a virtual reality world)...that structures can be created without actual space being available.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 05:00:55 AM by Sriram »

Maeght

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2015, 08:37:36 AM »

Yeah...yeah...I know the idea. All those are so many words... but what do they mean in real 'physical' terms?!

You ought to take a look at some of your posts!

Quote
We talk of a Singularity which is no more than a point, from which the universe arose. We then talk of a sudden expansion (inflation). We then talk of the creation happening everywhere and not in one place (where everywhere if there is no space?).  We then talk of multiple universes existing simultaneously. We then talk of an expanding universe and Dark Energy. We then talk of light from the Big bang arriving on earth after 13 billion years.

All these things don't add up. I do concede that our limited logic and human capabilities may be insufficient to fathom such matters. My point is that I don't think anyone has any idea what exactly happened and how (and we are not likely to!). So...we should stop pretending that we do.

I think its only in a simulated universe (like a virtual reality world)...that structures can be created without actual space being available.

Space available? The expansion was of space too not expansion into space. The concepts are of course difficult but they fit with the scientific evidence we have to date.  At some point there is of course a point where the human mind will struggle with the concepts. We use scientific investigation to find the best explanation we can and continue to seek out more information to improve the model.

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2015, 10:01:56 AM »
You ought to take a look at some of your posts!

Space available? The expansion was of space too not expansion into space. The concepts are of course difficult but they fit with the scientific evidence we have to date.  At some point there is of course a point where the human mind will struggle with the concepts. We use scientific investigation to find the best explanation we can and continue to seek out more information to improve the model.

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Udayana

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2015, 11:42:09 AM »
I agree with the later part of your post, Uda.  Just not sure about this paragraph.  Yes, "the LHC is basically about smashing particle beams together and seeing what results", but I've always understood that te purpose of all this particle smashing was to get back to the fundamentals of matter and to be able to work out what the hell happened in thsoe nanoseconds following the BB.  The other benefits are little more that incidental to the main purpose.  At least, that is what I have been told by folk who work there.

Oh, I thought you meant that the LHC was built to work out where the universe began.

Actually it is used by many different teams of scientists working on different projects. The overall aim is to enable fundamental research in physics. I couldn't say whether or not governments have agreed to fund it on the basis that it will help understand the creation of the universe - probably your friends know best.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Purpose

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Maeght

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2015, 01:10:11 PM »

jeremyp

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2015, 10:23:02 PM »
Not really, no.
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Outrider

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2016, 03:32:15 PM »
Yeah...yeah...I know the idea. All those are so many words... but what do they mean in real 'physical' terms?!

Do you mean in terms of physics - in which case it means exactly what's been explained already - or in terms of our everyday understanding of the universe? In everyday terms it's meaningless, because the conditions and behaviour, although guided by exactly the same rules and principles, do not occur in a recognisable fashion - the magnitude of the forces and the scale of activity mean that our understanding of the balance of fundamental forces is insufficient to grasp the activity.

Quote
We talk of a Singularity which is no more than a point, from which the universe arose. We then talk of a sudden expansion (inflation). We then talk of the creation happening everywhere and not in one place (where everywhere if there is no space?).

No, we don't. We don't talk of 'creation' at all. All the matter and energy was present before the expansion started. The expansion occurred throughout that matter and energy - what, if anything, it could be said to expand into makes no sense; those dimensions into which it expands only exist within the universe, they are the universe. What pre-existing dimensions those new dimensions existed within is something we don't have enough information to determine.

Quote
We then talk of multiple universes existing simultaneously.

We talk of the possibility of multilple universes - again, we have insufficient information to determine what might or might not exist outwith the universe.

Quote
We then talk of an expanding universe and Dark Energy. We then talk of light from the Big bang arriving on earth after 13 billion years

Well, we hadn't been here, but we could, yes.

Quote
All these things don't add up.

They do. You might not be able to add them up, but that doesn't mean that they don't add up - it's your limitation, not the limitation of the description.

Quote
My point is that I don't think anyone has any idea what exactly happened and how (and we are not likely to!). So...we should stop pretending that we do.

That rather depends on how exactly you'd like it described. We have pretty solid evidence for the rapid early expansion of the universe sometime a little over 13 billion years ago, from an extremely hot, dense collection of all the matter and energy of the universe.

Quote
I think its only in a simulated universe (like a virtual reality world)...that structures can be created without actual space being available.

No, it's only within the actual universe that our model of physics - which requires four-dimensional space-time for objects to exist within - that this restriction applies. We have no idea what restriction might apply to extra-universal physics.

O.
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splashscuba

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2016, 08:24:10 PM »
The best way to visualize the expansion of the universe is to use the surface of a balloon to represent the universe (not the balloon, just the surface)

Now imagine the small balloon with lots of dots on it.

Blow the balloon up and the dots appear to be moving away from each other.

If you were a dot on that balloon, all the dots around you would appear to be moving away from you in all directions. It wouldn't matter which dot you were.

Now try to imagine the universe in a similar way. From all points in our universe, things are moving away from us in all directions equally. It wouldn't matter where we where in the universe. The view would be the same.

Hope this helps
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Red Giant

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Re: 0.0.0.0. For The Big Bang...?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2016, 11:46:14 AM »
Bit of a misunderstanding of the BB, Jack, I fear - when the BB occurred the inflation of the proto-universe took place literally everywhere because that was the universe at that stage. Your question implies (which is very common amongst lots of people trying to wrap their heads around it) that the expansion of the universe took place in something, like blowing up a balloon inside a room, when in fact the expansion was of everything there was so you can't talk of an outside.
So everything was very small, and then it got bigger?  But it could only be measured on the inside, and if everything was very small, so were the measuring sticks.  So it would appear ginormous, from the inside.

If the universe were expanding like that, I don't think we'd know.  We can only know if it's expanding faster than the measuring sticks inside it.