Author Topic: What Did Jesus Intend?  (Read 8521 times)

Jack Knave

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What Did Jesus Intend?
« on: December 26, 2015, 05:43:56 PM »
I heard an off the cuff comment on the radio the other day which said Jesus had no intention of forming a new religion.

So what do people think was Jesus' intentions in all that preaching that he ministered?

Would he be surprised by its outcome and how events have unfolded?

trippymonkey

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2015, 05:46:34 PM »
Jesus LIVED & DIED a JEW !!!!!!
Nuff said ?!!?!?

Nick

Jack Knave

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2015, 05:54:56 PM »
Jesus LIVED & DIED a JEW !!!!!!
Nuff said ?!!?!?

Nick
That wasn't the point of my OP. It was what he said and was encouraging people to do that it concerned and the implications it had. Did JC intend for his followers to breakaway from the Jewish faith or what?

Rhiannon

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2015, 06:00:20 PM »
It's thought by many that his mission was that of someone who believed he was living in the 'end times' trying to prepare his followers for the coming apocalypse.

Overview here under Christianity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypticism

trippymonkey

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2015, 06:16:51 PM »
As I said - it was obvious Jesus felt the real spirit of the Jewish faith wasn't being 'heard', certainly as HE saw it anyway.

Sriram

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2015, 06:22:21 AM »
I heard an off the cuff comment on the radio the other day which said Jesus had no intention of forming a new religion.

So what do people think was Jesus' intentions in all that preaching that he ministered?

Would he be surprised by its outcome and how events have unfolded?


Its all about reformation...and what certain people felt was necessary at that time to change social behavior, spiritual philosophies and ideologies. 

Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian and did not intend to form a separate religion.   Buddha was not a Buddhist, he was a 'Hindu' who wanted to emphasize certain aspects over other aspects of the existing religions at that time (now collectively called Hinduism).

They had no idea that after them separate religions would be created in their name. 

Floo

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2015, 08:45:19 AM »
If Jesus was alive today I think he would be very surprised, and possibly disgusted by the way some of his followers behave. The religion formed well after his death was not created by him, Jesus was merely the figurehead.

jeremyp

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 10:23:20 AM »
This question is impossible to answer. We don't have any of Jesus' original thoughts or even any disinterested accounts of his deeds.

All we have are accounts written by people with an agenda. Paul's letters espouse Paul's idea of what Christianity should be. Do those ideas coincide with those of Jesus? We do not know. The same applies to the gospel writers and other epistle writers.

There are simply no accounts that reliably tell us Jesus' motivations.
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Jack Knave

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 01:26:30 PM »
This question is impossible to answer. We don't have any of Jesus' original thoughts or even any disinterested accounts of his deeds.

All we have are accounts written by people with an agenda. Paul's letters espouse Paul's idea of what Christianity should be. Do those ideas coincide with those of Jesus? We do not know. The same applies to the gospel writers and other epistle writers.

There are simply no accounts that reliably tell us Jesus' motivations.
That implies to me a very cliquey little group who didn't make the 'headlines' with the authorities, worked below the radar, else the Romans would have made some documentation of the fuss he caused. Only later was it blown up to look like it was more than it was as the follower numbers increased and a narrative was required to bind the growing group together. This analysis would make what Trippy said as being the most viable position - Jesus was just working within his Jewish faith with the possible idea of the end times in the mix, as Rhiannon said - though this could have been part of the narrative for the growing group, as many cults tend to have a death wish. Only when it didn't happen did it change gear to a more prolonged outlook.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 01:30:50 PM by Jack Knave »

Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 08:49:20 PM »
I heard an off the cuff comment on the radio the other day which said Jesus had no intention of forming a new religion.
I doubt it was an off-the-cuff comment, Jack; after all, very few Christians or Jews believe that he set out to form a new religion.  Judaism was meant to be a faith that served as a witness of God's love for all humanity, but which became very insular, teaching that the God they worshipped was ONLY the God of the Jews.  Jesus' purpose was to call the Jews back to the purpose for which they had been called/chosen in the first place.  A handful acknowledged this and followed Jesus' teachings by witnessing to what the Jews had been intended to witness to in the first place.   

Remember that the term 'Christian' and its associated forms was originally merely a term of abuse introduced by the Ephesians.

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Would he be surprised by its outcome and how events have unfolded?
I suspect that he woukd be disappointed by the way that some elements of the 'body Christian' have fallen into the same trap that the Jews did.
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trippymonkey

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 09:56:23 PM »
Why on earth would a god 'choose' as unfulfilling a people as Jews to form his 'church' on earth ?!?!!?!?
What was so special about them anyway ????
Anyone honestly answer THAT one ?!?!?!?

Rose

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2015, 08:04:59 AM »
Why on earth would a god 'choose' as unfulfilling a people as Jews to form his 'church' on earth ?!?!!?!?
What was so special about them anyway ????
Anyone honestly answer THAT one ?!?!?!?

According to the Jews they were the only people that was prepared to take it on.



Plus I think they see themselves as bringing an ethical and moral message to mankind.

I think people misconstrue what they mean by chosen

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/jews-gods-chosen-people_b_1079821.html

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/160993/jewish/Are-the-Jews-the-Chosen-People.htm

The light the Jews were supposed to deliver wasn't the Christian message, from my reading of it it tallies with this.

Quote


This is not a "spin" or an apologetic, but is a theological and historical fact. Judaism traces its beginnings to Abraham who, according to the Bible, was the first human being to recognize the truth that everything and everyone emanates from the same Source. And with this recognition comes the call to personal and communal transformation. Whatever your believe about Abraham -- that he was a real person, the mythologizing of a tribal chief, or a fabricated character -- does not matter, because the reality is that Judaism has understood his story as a call to kindness and hospitality. And while one can -- and at times ought to -- find serious flaws in Abraham, his flaws are deliberately shown so we can know that one does not need to be perfect in order to be of service, and that answering the call will inevitably lead to personal struggle and mistakes. Abraham is not a perfect human; he is a human who seeks to be more.

Chosenness continues when the Jews received the 10 commandments at Mt. Sinai. Again, whether historical fact or fiction matters not one bit, because we do have the 10 Commandments, and they came to the world through the Jews. While one can be critical ("why should an all-powerful God care if we take His name in vain?"), most criticism also comes from a deep misunderstanding. The Bible and Jewish literature does not refer to these as "commandments," but as "statements" that flow inevitably from one to the other.

This begins with the essential and revolutionary recognition that there is an eternal, loving, involved consciousness that is the creative and sustaining force of everything. With this knowledge the rest of the statements naturally follow: we will not desire to worship the "idols" of egoic gratification because we will see that these are illusions; will not use spiritual insight for personal gain (the real meaning of "not taking God's name in vain"); will honor our time and set aside a day to reconnect to Spirit; will feel gratitude for life and to those who gave us birth; will see others as fellow creations of God who must not be abused in any way; and finally we will not be jealous of others or want what they have because we will know that to compare ourselves is to be ungrateful for what we have been given. This radical understanding of the dynamics of life has slowly changed the world for the better.

Jews were chosen to bring to the world this message of goodness: treat the stranger as one's own, love your fellow as yourself, care for the widow, orphan and handicapped, give to the poor, know that Spirit is higher than material success and that you are a child of God, and most importantly, always value life. In this way, Jews are chosen to be the lamp that allows God's light to shine in the world.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/jews-gods-chosen-people_b_1079821.html


You have to separate Judaism from what Christians believe it is and what Christians teach it is and see it in its own right.

Then I think you can see why I think Jesus was a Jew trying to teach that aspect of Judaism,and later Christianity and mainly Paul turned it into something else.

That's not to say Rhiannon isn't right, he obviously did seem to think he was in the end times but much of his teaching revolved around kindness.

Apparently lots of rabbis of the time taught the same, and criticised the same aspects of a few people who applied Judaism without a real meaning of kindness.

Christians often teach that Jesus was criticising all Jews but he wasn't, he was criticising the behaviour of a few.

(Plus, I like the way Judaism tries to keep Abraham and Moses as human beings with faults, rather than making them faultless, like Christianity and Islam have with Jesus and Mohammed)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 08:33:21 AM by Rose »
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Why you ramble, no one knows
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Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
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Rose

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2015, 08:09:17 AM »
Some Christians can get very spiteful, and don't understand what Jews mean by being chosen.

They try and victimise Jews because they want to be chosen themselves, and they misunderstand what is meant by the term.

http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=134

A lot of hatred is generated by a misunderstanding of the term.

People can get very jealous.  :(
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 08:34:57 AM by Rose »
Ramblin' rose, ramblin' rose
Why you ramble, no one knows
Wild and wind-blown, that's how you've grown
Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
When your ramblin' days are gone

Rose

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2015, 08:28:49 AM »
Quote

Jews do not believe that being a member of the Chosen People gives them any special talents or makes them better than anyone else. On the topic of chosenness, the Book of Amos even goes so far as to say: "You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth. That is why I call you to account for all your iniquities" (Amos 3:2). In this way Jews are called to be a “light to the nations” (Isaiah 42:6) by doing good in the world through gemilut hasidim (acts of loving kindness) and tikkun olam (repairing the world). Nevertheless, many modern Jews feel uncomfortable with the term “Chosen People.” Perhaps for similar reasons, Maimonides (a medieval Jewish philosopher) did not list it in his foundational 13 Principles of the Jewish Faith.

Different Jewish Movements' Views of Chosenness:

The three largest movements of Judaism – Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism and Orthodox Judaism – define the idea of the Chosen People in the following ways:

Reform Judaism views the idea of the Chosen People as a metaphor for the choices we make in our lives. All Jews are Jews-by-Choice in that every person must make a decision, at some point in their lives, whether or not they want to live Jewishly. Just as God chose to give the Torah to the Israelites, modern Jews must decide whether they want to be in a relationship with God.
Conservative Judaism views the idea of chosenness as a unique heritage wherein Jews are able to enter into a relationship with God and effect change in the world by helping create a compassionate society.
Orthodox Judaism views the concept of the Chosen People as a spiritual calling that ties Jews to God through the Torah and mizvot, which Jews have been commanded to make a part of their lives.

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/jewsaschosenpeople.htm




I like the idea of being chosen to shoulder responsibility and show consideration and kindness for others, it is actually quite nice.

You can choose to be chosen, no matter who you are.

You don't have to be Jewish, you can be anyone,  you can do it by helping others.

🌹

It has nothing to do with salvation or being controlled by other people or joining some church or twisting your brain into convolutions with odd beliefs , but about deciding to help a neighbour or a stranger and leading a good honest life and not hurting others.

That's what I believe.



 :)





« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 08:38:36 AM by Rose »
Ramblin' rose, ramblin' rose
Why you ramble, no one knows
Wild and wind-blown, that's how you've grown
Who can cling to a ramblin' rose?

Ramble on, ramble on
When your ramblin' days are gone

trippymonkey

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2015, 08:52:39 AM »
Rose
What great replies & SO honest too. ;D
Many thanks for that &, as far as I can see, no preaching ?!!?? LOL  ;) ;D

Nick

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2015, 11:52:13 AM »
I heard an off the cuff comment on the radio the other day which said Jesus had no intention of forming a new religion.

So what do people think was Jesus' intentions in all that preaching that he ministered?

Would he be surprised by its outcome and how events have unfolded?

He came to confirm fulfill the Law, to make atonement and to confirm the (prophesied) New Covenant with Israel.  That gentiles would benefit from this should be no surprise as it was promised even to Abraham. And yes He came to preach the Kingdom and repentance.
"It is finished."

Floo

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2015, 01:23:03 PM »
He came to confirm fulfill the Law, to make atonement and to confirm the (prophesied) New Covenant with Israel.  That gentiles would benefit from this should be no surprise as it was promised even to Abraham. And yes He came to preach the Kingdom and repentance.

In your opinion!

Jack Knave

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2015, 03:35:06 PM »
I doubt it was an off-the-cuff comment, Jack; after all, very few Christians or Jews believe that he set out to form a new religion.  Judaism was meant to be a faith that served as a witness of God's love for all humanity, but which became very insular, teaching that the God they worshipped was ONLY the God of the Jews.  Jesus' purpose was to call the Jews back to the purpose for which they had been called/chosen in the first place. A handful acknowledged this and followed Jesus' teachings by witnessing to what the Jews had been intended to witness to in the first place.   
In that case all Christians should be by faith be Jewish(?). And if the above is the case then in Jesus' time the cross, the blood of the lamb and the usual Christian message we hear today, and all that, didn't apply so again all Christians should be Jewish, and that Christianity is a false religion built on idolatry.

Instead of following the message they followed the messenger.

Quote
Remember that the term 'Christian' and its associated forms was originally merely a term of abuse introduced by the Ephesians.
Why was it a term of abuse?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 03:48:48 PM by Jack Knave »

Jack Knave

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2015, 03:39:09 PM »
Why on earth would a god 'choose' as unfulfilling a people as Jews to form his 'church' on earth ?!?!!?!?
What was so special about them anyway ????
Anyone honestly answer THAT one ?!?!?!?
Well, it had nothing to do with divine will...

trippymonkey

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2015, 03:50:47 PM »
JK
INDEED !!!!
Jesus was executed - helped by the Jewish Ministry because he didn't fulfill ALL criteria requirements of the awaited Messiah !!!! Fact !!!

Jack Knave

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2015, 04:17:02 PM »
He came to confirm fulfill the Law, to make atonement and to confirm the (prophesied) New Covenant with Israel.  That gentiles would benefit from this should be no surprise as it was promised even to Abraham. And yes He came to preach the Kingdom and repentance.
I think that because some say that he just conveyed the need to get back to the original ethos of the Jewish faith, and this is what some of his Gospel preaching's point to, and others say what you have stated probably explains some of the conflicting messages we can see in the Gospels.

Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2015, 08:58:48 AM »
Why on earth would a god 'choose' as unfulfilling a people as Jews to form his 'church' on earth ?!?!!?!?
What was so special about them anyway ????
Anyone honestly answer THAT one ?!?!?!?
That is an extremely easy question to answer, Nick.  There was NOTHING special about them.  That was the whole point (and its made several times in the Old Testament, and has been debated here on several threads started by Floo).  They weren't chosen 'because' ...; they were chosen 'for' ... .

Not sure what happened when you were at school, but as a teacher I would often choose a pupil to run an errant for me (take a message to another teacher; tell the head teacher something; etc.) on the grounds that they were nothing special and that giving them the responsibility of doing something 'official' would boost their self-esteem, encourage them to feel of value, etc.

Being chosen isn't always about merit.  In a sense, isn't that that underlying idea behind comprehensive education?
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Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2015, 09:29:53 AM »
Then I think you can see why I think Jesus was a Jew trying to teach that aspect of Judaism,and later Christianity and mainly Paul turned it into something else.
I'd disagree with the idea that 'Christianity and mainly Paul' turned it into something else: after all, even Jesus had begun to expand the message and the responsibility for sharing it beyond the Jewish people - think of the Roman centurion he praised for having faith; or the way in which he spoke with the woman of Samaria (no self respecting Jew of the time would have been seen dead speaking to a Samaritan, let alone a Samaritan woman); or his dealings with those people who the Jews had rejected, either on the grounds of race or physical or mental ill-health.

Quote
That's not to say Rhiannon isn't right, he obviously did seem to think he was in the end times but much of his teaching revolved around kindness.
Not sure that Jesus ever mentions the end times as being close - though he did imply that his followers ought to live as if they were around the corner.  I think that Paul probably picked up on this element of his teaching and encouraged his readers to be alert and to be ready for the end-times should they occur during their lifetimes.  Ironically, for all the mention of Paul's influence on the church, it was the author of Revelations who really got into the apocalyptic mode - a book probably written afer Paul's death.

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Apparently lots of rabbis of the time taught the same, and criticised the same aspects of a few people who applied Judaism without a real meaning of kindness.
Whilst this probably the case, history only seems to highlight 2 or 3 - perhaps the most famous being Rabbi Hillel who did at about the same time as Jesus was born.  His diametric opposite was probably Rabbi Shammai who died at about the same time as Jesus was starting his ministry and who, in today's terms would be regarded as a fundamentalist (a rigid interpretation of the Torah and strict separation of Jew and Gentile).  The third, viewed by some as possibly the greatest rabbi of all time, is Rabbi Akiva - who lived in the latter half of the 1st century - and who seems to have leaned more to the funadmentalist way of thinking of Shammai than the more 'liberal' ideas that Hillel espoused.

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Christians often teach that Jesus was criticising all Jews but he wasn't, he was criticising the behaviour of a few.
Can't say that I have ever heard any sermon, or read any book that has Christians suggesting that Jesus criticised all Jews.  After all, that type of thinking and action only really became common in the middle of the 1st Millennium.

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(Plus, I like the way Judaism tries to keep Abraham and Moses as human beings with faults, rather than making them faultless, like Christianity and Islam have with Jesus and Mohammed)
The problem here is that Jesus is understood to be the Messiah - God in human form - something neither Abraham, Moses or Mohammed are by their respective 'adherents'.
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Floo

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2015, 11:06:15 AM »
If Jesus was the 'messiah' he failed to make an impact where most of the Jews were concerned!

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2015, 01:24:58 PM »
People who actually read the Bible everyday will recall this,
"...He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and aquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."   Isaiah 53:3