Author Topic: What Did Jesus Intend?  (Read 10348 times)

jeremyp

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2015, 12:37:24 AM »
And there are pretty obvious reasons why the Gospel authors expressed and explained things in different ways.  For instance, the first 3 Gospels (aka the Synoptic Gospels) had very different purposes and probably audiences to that attributed to John. 
Do you realise that you have just argued against the gospels as reliable sources?
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jeremyp

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2015, 12:45:27 AM »
No; he received the gospel (ie the good news) via revelation.  He would have had to have received information about the actual teachings of Jesus (after all, he does make reference to certain of them) from someone else.
He claims what he teaches comes from revelation. He never claims any other source for anything he teaches. In fact there is no evidence that he even knew of anything that later appeared in the gospels except for the execution and resurrection.

You are speculating.

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Sorry to disappoint you
The only way in which you disappointment is in your inability to think analytically about this subject.

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Mark's Gospel includes certain details that only Peter would have likely known suggesting that Mark received that info from him, first hand.  eg events concerning his family, and events relating to incidents that only involved Jeus and Peter.

Or he made them up, or he knew some oral tradition that may or may not have come from Peter originally.

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I had Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius in mind.
All of whom were writing years after the events and none of whom say anything that they couldn't have got from Christians in their own time.
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Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2015, 08:50:25 AM »
Hope, it's really simple.

Jews have not become Christians for exactly the same reason you haven't rushed off to become a Muslim because Mohammed claimed to have been told the truth about the scriptures by God via the Angel Gabriel

That's because Islam isn' t accurate in your eyes.

Well Christianity isn't accurate in the eyes of a Jew.

Even if Jews might have seen value in many of the teachings of Jesus ( and in many they do because originally  they are Jewish teachings ) , that was destroyed once people turned him into a divine being.
Oddly enough, Rose, it was Jews who did that latter action, no-one else.  In fact, it was because of his own claim to be divine that the Jewish authorities had him executed - so don't blame other people.

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Even more so as they have a history of being persecuted by Christians. ...

It's sad, but true, they have been treated appallingly throughout history by Christians.
Yet, that didn't even begin until the late 1st millennium - so that is a poor excuse to give for why Jews haven't taken the message up.

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See, reading a bit about Judaism and meeting some in real life, they are very wary of people claiming things about God and pushing themselves upfront, it's people wanting to be God, like leaders thought they were, in Egypt. For example.
Not quite sure what you're trying to say here.  Remember that Jesus actually fits the older idea of Messiah to a tee, whilst he didn't fit the politico-military idea that had taken precedence by the 2 or 3 centuries prior to Jesus' time. 

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Some human beings do this, believe they are more than they are. Cult leaders etc. It's an ego thing.

Obviously they were wary of it in Jesus time too.
It would appear that the people were very happy to pay attention to Jesus during hius life, but it was the religious leaders who felt threatened by him (hint of people believing they were more than they are, perhaps?) and who seemed to turn the people's opinion.

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Although they have had a few of their own, it is pretty much disapproved of, turning a man into the divine. ...

Jesus was just one in a line of many.
The problem with this understanding is that the 'few of their own' didn't claim divinity but had it thrust upon them.  That is why Jesus is definitely not 'just one in a line of many'.

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Jews are not going to become a Christian any more than you are going to become a Muslim.
Sorry, Rose, but it is worth remembering that it was Jews who were the first Christians. So, to suggest that they aren't going to become Christians is somewhat of a mis-representation.
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trippymonkey

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2015, 01:23:25 PM »
EX points once again, Rose ?!?!?
Of course God KNEW this was all going to happen & so didn't choose... the ....jews...in the ...first place. OH SH.. !!!!!!

Nick

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2015, 06:50:08 PM »
And there are pretty obvious reasons why the Gospel authors expressed and explained things in different ways.  For instance, the first 3 Gospels (aka the Synoptic Gospels) had very different purposes and probably audiences to that attributed to John.  This wasn't a 'here is the Good News' document; it was a 'this is where people have been going wrong with their thinking' document; even the Synoptic Gospels would appear to have different audiences to each other.  Even today, we find very different reports of the same event - especially when it is political - depending on the political disposition of the report's author, the media in which it appears, perhaps even the timing in relation to other 'political' events.
So what were these gospels used for at the time they were created? They didn't have the printing press or the internet, and they aren't exactly small and easy to copy out, so who actually had them or read them?

Jack Knave

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2015, 07:01:37 PM »
A wonderfully incorrect response, JK.  Nowhere in Jesus' teachings or in any of the New Testament writings is there an instruction to worship Jesus, as a singularity.  Nor, is Judaism about being a good Jew; it's about worshipping God.
It is claimed that JC is the son of God. Gods are worshipped.

Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2015, 09:46:39 PM »
It is claimed that JC is the son of God. Gods are worshipped.
And, JK, as a Christian I worship God.  I don't worship the son of God, nor do I worship the Holy Spirit.  I worship God who, I believe, is 3 in 1.

Incidentally, if you look again at your own post to which I was responding, you said that one of the religiuons under discussion was about worshipping the messenger, and that is why I pointed out how wildly inaccurate your post was; the 'messenger' as you call Jesus is actually the God whose message both the Jews and Christians have been instructed to share with the world.
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trippymonkey

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2015, 09:48:17 PM »
So why didn't 'God' appear AS 'God' then we'd ALL have paid attention ?!?!?!
Simple truth is Jesus was NOT God any more than WE are !?!?!

Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2015, 10:25:30 PM »
So what!, the first Mormons were Christians, so suggesting the rest of the Christians are not going to become Mormons is a misrepresentation?
Rose, the first Mormons were as much Christians as the first Muslims.  In the same way that Mohammed took a number of Old and New Testament ideas and weaved them in to the Quran, so Joseph Smith took a number of Old and New testament ideas and weaved them into his Book of Mormon.

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Just because a few Jews joined Jesus in the beginning, has no bearing on the vast majority of Jews ( then and now ) who have no intention of becoming Christians.
And as some here love to remind us, an argumentum ad populum doesn't prove anything.

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I see no reason why they should.

They have a beautiful religion all of their own.

To let that go, would be a shame.

IMO Jesus and Christianity,  is contrary to Judaism.
The problem with this argument is in the answer to the question 'Why were the Jews chosen?'  The Hebrew Scriptures make it clear that they were chosen in order to act as God's witnesses to the nations amongst whom they lived - 'the world'. Those same Scriptures make it clear that they failed to fulfill this purpose and, as a result, they were punished in a number of ways.  Furthermore, over the centuries, a series of prophets such as Jeremiah, Haggai, Micah, Isaiah, et al were called with the express purpose of calling the people back to that purpose.  Sadly, over the centuries, their leaders became so inward-looking that God did what he had said he would do if the situation required it - and came to earth himself as the promised Messiah.

Note that I have not at any point referred to the New Testament - the coming of the Messiah was prophesied on more than one occasion in the Hebrew Scriptures and all the other information I have given is consonant with Jewish thinking prior to Jesus' birth.

Judaism may well be a beautiful religion, but when (and this accusation can equally be laid at the feet of the Christian Church at various points through history) the followers of the religion fail to follow through on the purpose that they have been given by God, that religion becomes somewhat directionless.

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Christianity has been the biggest preventative concept ever, in preventing Jews from claiming the teachings of Jesus ( Plus his own unique Jewish contribution )as their own(as an ordinary faulty rabbi and discussing his ideas).
Yet, as you have already pointed out several times, many Jews refused to accept Jesus' claims of his divinity and his teaching that built on teir own existing Scriptures.  In other words, to claim, in one post/breathe that the Jews chose not to accept him as the Messiah, and then to claim in another post that "Christianity has been the biggest preventative concept ever, in preventing Jews from claiming the teachings of Jesus" is one of the least cohesive arguments that anyone can provide.

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This is because not only because of his claimed divinity, but the disgusting way Christians have behaved in his name, going right back to 250 AD or as soon as Christians gained enough power to do any real harm.
Yet again, you suggest that the Jews refused to accept him and his claim of divinity in the early first century, only to then suggest that events of some 200 years later (though I'd suggest that the real damage was probably not done till several centuries later) were the cause of the Jews' unwillingness to accept his message.  Which of the two is it?  Are you suggesting that actually a number of Jews actually took his teachings on board in those initial 170+ years only to decide to jettison them when the church began to teach ideas that, whilst reflecting the way that the Jewish religious leaders had regarded and treated Jesus during his lifetime, seemed to be laying the blame on the people as a whole?

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Denying it happened is a bit like holocaust deniers, misguided.
Contrary to your interpretation of my posts, I have never denied that the Church has - over the centuries - treated the Jewish people appallingly. 

Regarding your quote(s) from Origen, have you ever considered that, by ensuring that the people in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus' execution were seen to agree with their proposal of the death penalty, those self-same leaders were trying to tar their own people with that particular brush?  Remember that many of those same people had welcomed him into Jerusalem and effectively proclaimd him as king only a week or two earlier.

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This is a Catholic timeline shocking really.
And that is why I tend to treat institutional timelines, be thy religious or political, ancient of modern with a sizeable pinch of salt, preferring to get back, as best I can to the original documentary material.

PS: I'm going to have to work out how best to respond to your other points (in red) tomorrow, as the new quoting system doesn't allow me to automatcally quote them.  I'll probably have to cut and paste them into a new post.
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2Corrie

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2015, 12:24:01 AM »
Rose, what are your thoughts about the existing and growing congregations of Jewish believers in the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2015, 02:16:09 AM »
Rose,
Please read the statement of faith of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

http://www.umjc.org/statement-of-faith/

Leonard James

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2015, 07:03:27 AM »
And, JK, as a Christian I worship God.  I don't worship the son of God, nor do I worship the Holy Spirit.  I worship God who, I believe, is 3 in 1.

Incidentally, if you look again at your own post to which I was responding, you said that one of the religiuons under discussion was about worshipping the messenger, and that is why I pointed out how wildly inaccurate your post was; the 'messenger' as you call Jesus is actually the God whose message both the Jews and Christians have been instructed to share with the world.

What all believers fail to accept is that the "message" was nothing more than the beliefs of the writers of the Bible ... and they were clever enough to claim that those thoughts were being dictated by "God".

The human mind is very susceptible to accept any story which confers on it the possibility of everlasting life.

Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2015, 09:46:15 AM »
I think it's a terrible shame, they have traded in their beautiful religion and history for the mass hysteria, the approval and acceptance of other Christians,   and pursue eternal life instead.
In what way have they "traded in their beautiful religion and history for the mass hysteria, the approval and acceptance of other Christians ... ", Rose? 

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I don't think they can really have understood Judaism, because if I was Jewish I would never have let it go.  ( not that I do, but what I do, I value)
 :'(

They have lost something, something important  :(
The irony of your comments here is that they have actually moved back to the more traditional Jewish ideas that existed before the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel split and the land was invded by various neighbouring nations.

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I'd advise them to look at Judaism again, this time without Christians reinterpreting their scriptures.
Sadly Rose, the 'Christian reinterpretation', as you call it, was carried out by practising Jews.  All Christians are doing is following in those footsteps.

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The desire to live forever is like an addictive drug though, distorts your reality and is hard to give up.
Couldn't agree more, Rose, and modern Western society is possibly history's greatest exponent of this 'addictive drug'.

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That's how I see much in Christianity, like Dorian Grey.
The drug that distorts their reality, and make the unacceptable acceptable.
It also shows how mixed up you are in regard to Christian beliefs.  There is nothing about immortality in Christianity.
 :o

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One of the lines of the Jewish Shema says
(Here again we see one slight imperfection in the current quoting system)
IMO that doesn't leave room for the pursuit of eternal life at all costs.
Quoting a passage out of context like this does your argument no favours, Rose.  The point about the instruction "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might" is that this is the means by which Jews believe that they will be able to enjoy life after death in the presence of God.  This has nothing to do with immortality, even though you seem to think the terms 'eternal life' and 'immortality' are synonymous.
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Floo

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2015, 10:23:25 AM »
 "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might"

That would be like loving Hitler if  what the Bible attributes to the deity is correct, as I  have said many times before!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 12:01:20 PM by Floo »
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2Corrie

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2015, 10:36:54 AM »
Now this is eternal life that they know You the One true God and Jesus Christ whom  You sent. John 17:3
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 10:40:47 AM by 2Corrie »
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Floo

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2015, 11:46:40 AM »
Now this is eternal life that they know You the One true God and Jesus Christ whom  You sent. John 17:3

Another verse without any meaning in reality!
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2Corrie

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2015, 11:55:08 AM »
Any particular reason you don't comment on the verses when Rose quotes them Floo ?
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Floo

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2015, 12:02:35 PM »
Any particular reason you don't comment on the verses when Rose quotes them Floo ?

I don't think Rose thinks they have anymore credence than I do.
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Shaker

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2015, 01:05:00 PM »
Eternal life is a form of immortality.

It means you don't die.

The sort of people who put a large store by it, tend to be people who commit atrocities or are basically swindlers.

Examples would be Isis and TV evangelists of various sorts.


I have found people who put the stress on eternal life etc tend to lack empathy for others

Not all Christians put the same emphasis on it, but the ones that do, seem to cause harm.

Personally I like Wittgenstein's take on it - we already have eternal life from the subjective point of view, not because we live for ever - there's no evidence of that - but because for every subject we can only ever know that we are alive; once we're dead, we can't know that we're dead, because we're dead! So for every individual, there's only ever consciousness that goes on and we can't know when it stops for the reason already given. Borges said effectively the same thing.
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Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2015, 03:18:50 PM »
"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might"

That would be like loving Hitler if  what the Bible attributes to the deity is correct, as I  have said many times before!
But of course, you have 'many times' given no evidence to support you 'many times'-made claims.
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Hope

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2015, 03:22:55 PM »
I don't agree with so many things you have asserted its hard to know where to begin. It will have to wait until I'm not using my phone
You may not agree with what I have said, but then I'm not sure that I'd put your judgement over that of certain Jews of the time.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2015, 03:41:07 PM »
But they didn't find them embarrassing or they would not have become ingrained. Even if they had become ingrained, that would not prevent the gospel authors from dropping them. Two of the four gospels omit the Lord's Prayer. I doubt if there is anything more ingrained into the Christian psyche and yet we have two gospels not mentioning it even though it is not even embarrassing.

Christians did not find anything in the gospels embarrassing or it wouldn't be there.

Are you a 'Jesus Mythicist', Jeremy? I suppose that if you believe all the gospels are so lacking in any material that could be attributed to a definitive historical character, then you must be. Or do you believe that there was a certain wandering preacher called Jesus around whom the gospel writers attached a host of circulating stories of indefinite source, and padded these out with their own imaginings, woven around texts from the OT that seemed to prophesy 'The Messiah'?
I think we agree on the importance of Paul's 'vision' in colouring all later attempts at depicting Jesus, but the differences between his ideas and certain important passages in the gospels is striking.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2015, 03:48:28 PM »


All I see is Christians stretching and distorting things like Jewish Scripture,  to try and support what they believe.

However, one could hardly claim that the Jewish Scriptures themselves are consistent, and the idea that there is one clear line of teaching present in the OT is difficult to sustain. There are about four divine covenants related in the OT, and these are not consistent. Even on the question of sacrifice of animals, which became central to the main Jewish sects up to the time of Jesus, there are diametrically opposed views. You can trace this back to Jeremiah*, who distinctly says God gave no commandment for a system of sacrifice to be installed at the time of the Exodus. And of course Isaiah and Micah insist on its irrelevance.
The Jews have not been noted for their capacity for agreement on many things :)

*Jeremiah 7:22
" For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices."
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 03:51:38 PM by Dicky Underpants »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2015, 03:58:37 PM »

No but most of them agree their writings don't predict the coming of Jesus, it's only the converts to Christianity that do that.


On that I'd certainly agree.

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Re: What Did Jesus Intend?
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2015, 04:41:43 PM »
Personally I like Wittgenstein's take on it - we already have eternal life from the subjective point of view, not because we live for ever - there's no evidence of that - but because for every subject we can only ever know that we are alive; once we're dead, we can't know that we're dead, because we're dead! So for every individual, there's only ever consciousness that goes on and we can't know when it stops for the reason already given. Borges said effectively the same thing.
That sounds like fools gold. We see our loved ones die and know we shall follow them. The fact that we moan their parting shows that we are very aware of the reality of death in a deep and profound emotional way that moves our very being. Some even have lives that are a living death...