Author Topic: Interconnection  (Read 8109 times)

Sriram

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Interconnection
« on: January 07, 2016, 03:23:47 PM »
Hi everyone,

For centuries philosophers and mystics have been talking about 'all life being interconnected'.  Most common folk also experience some sort of a interconnectivity between themselves and other people and even all other life forms.

Scientists probably dismiss this experience as just a romanticized idea of life and merely a human psychological need to stay connected to other people. No evidence at all, they would claim.

In recent years we have seen how the ecological system is interconnected. Events happening in one part of the globe affect other parts. Events affecting one species affects many others. The Gaia hypothesis even looks at the entire earth as a living organism with all life forms as parts of it....like different cells and organs in our body.

In physics, Quantum Entanglement is about how particles once bonded  stay connected on separation.... even across great distances.....influencing each other instantaneously. Some interpretations of QM also talk of conscious observation affecting reality. The Anthropic Principle (PAP) talks of consciousness being connected to the universe.

In spite of all this, scientists prefer to think of the universe as some sort of a material reality independent of life and consciousness.

The Unconscious mind has been known to take decisions even before the conscious mind is aware of it. This means that some sort of a communication is taking place between the unconscious mind and the environment even before the conscious mind is aware of it.

Mystics and spiritual people experience the positive effects of prayer, illnesses getting cured suddenly, telepathy and clairvoyance, premonitions, synchronicity....and so on.   

All these phenomena if seen together, it suggests some sort of a connection between all people, all life forms and perhaps even non life objects.

The first reaction from sceptics would be one of dismissing such ideas as 'supernatural' and as related to the belief in God.  This is incorrect. The common connection between all life forms need not be supernatural or anything 'out there'. It can be a very natural connection that we cannot observe through our senses but could nevertheless exist. Like the magnetic field of the earth. 

The second objection would be about evidence.  Well...the evidence is all around us and the above observations are the evidence.

We must remember that only in directly observable phenomena that the observation comes first and the theory follows later.  In abstract matters and phenomena that we cannot observe directly...the theory or hypothesis comes first and then the observation and gathering of data follow to confirm  the theory. The ideas of Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Parallel Universes....even the predictions of certain elementary articles...are in the second category.

No doubt, at this point of time the idea of a common connection or web like field of some kind is a conjecture (a hypothesis)......but it is important to recognise it as a possibility and to incorporate it in theories of the mind, social behaviour and in ecology studies.

It is possible that beginning with this assumption instead of the normal materialistic one.... could yield better and more realistic results for analysis and making predictions.  At least some people should try it IMO.

Cheers.

Sriram

Outrider

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 03:56:50 PM »
For centuries philosophers and mystics have been talking about 'all life being interconnected'.  Most common folk also experience some sort of a interconnectivity between themselves and other people and even all other life forms.

Scientists probably dismiss this experience as just a romanticized idea of life and merely a human psychological need to stay connected to other people. No evidence at all, they would claim.

I see you've employed a straw-man to operate the Assertotron 2000TM today...

That rather depends on what you mean by 'interconnected'. Scientists are quite prepared to accept that consciousness is an integral part of at least humans, and quite likely a range of other species as well, all of which interact with the environment in a complicated fashion and can be considered 'interconnected' as part of the biosphere. What they'd dispute, in the absence of any reliable evidence, is the idea that consciousness are directly interconnected at all, or that they are manifestations of some universal 'life-force' or somesuch.

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In recent years we have seen how the ecological system is interconnected. Events happening in one part of the globe affect other parts. Events affecting one species affects many others. The Gaia hypothesis even looks at the entire earth as a living organism with all life forms as parts of it....like different cells and organs in our body.

Right.

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In physics, Quantum Entanglement is about how particles once bonded  stay connected on separation.... even across great distances.....influencing each other instantaneously.

Broadly - I'm not sure QE requires proximity in the first place, quanta can be entangled at a range.

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Some interpretations of QM also talk of conscious observation affecting reality.

At the quantum level, and it's not necessarily a conscious observation - machinery determining certain pieces of information locks quantum fluctuations into a given state.

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The Anthropic Principle (PAP) talks of consciousness being connected to the universe.

It can talk of it as much as it likes, but unless it can support the idea with some sort of evidence then it's just talk.

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In spite of all this, scientists prefer to think of the universe as some sort of a material reality independent of life and consciousness

No, not 'indepenent' of life and consciousness, quite the opposite. All of the life and consciousness that we're aware of is manifested, expressed and emergent from elements of the universe - what we dispute is the idea that the universe, or the broader reality, is some singular integrated consciousness or 'lifeforce'. Life and consciousness appear to be emergent properties of particular arrangements of elements of the universe.

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The Unconscious mind has been known to take decisions even before the conscious mind is aware of it. This means that some sort of a communication is taking place between the unconscious mind and the environment even before the conscious mind is aware of it.

The unconscious mind has access to the same sensory stimuli as the conscious mind does - exactly what access it has to memories isn't clear yet, but the idea that the subconscious 'communicates' with the external world isn't really much of a contentious issue, unless you're suggesting some sort of extra-sensory perception or direct mental influence on surroundings.

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Mystics and spiritual people experience the positive effects of prayer, illnesses getting cured suddenly, telepathy and clairvoyance, premonitions, synchronicity....and so on.

No, mystics and spiritual people believe they experience these things, and put undue credit on unevidenced claims out of confirmation bias. 

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All these phenomena if seen together, it suggests some sort of a connection between all people, all life forms and perhaps even non life objects.

No, they suggest that Barnum was right.

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The first reaction from sceptics would be one of dismissing such ideas as 'supernatural' and as related to the belief in God.

No, the first reaction is to ask 'what evidence do you have to support the claim'. Then, if you fail to produce anything reliable, then your claim can be dismissed.

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The common connection between all life forms need not be supernatural or anything 'out there'. It can be a very natural connection that we cannot observe through our senses but could nevertheless exist. Like the magnetic field of the earth.

Yes it could. All you need to do now is to support the contention.

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The second objection would be about evidence.  Well...the evidence is all around us and the above observations are the evidence.

No, they aren't really. People's beliefs are an extremely poor guide to reality - we just have to look at the number of conflicting ideas about gods, from 'there aren't any' through to 'there are hundreds' and any number of specific combinations in between.

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We must remember that only in directly observable phenomena that the observation comes first and the theory follows later.

Right.

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In abstract matters and phenomena that we cannot observe directly...the theory or hypothesis comes first and then the observation and gathering of data follow to confirm  the theory. The ideas of Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Parallel Universes....even the predictions of certain elementary articles...are in the second category.

No. Dark Energy, Dark Matter and Parallel Universes are all hypotheses derived from earlier findings - they aren't 'abstract' they are conclusions of observed phenomena.

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No doubt, at this point of time the idea of a common connection or web like field of some kind is a conjecture (a hypothesis)......but it is important to recognise it as a possibility and to incorporate it in theories of the mind, social behaviour and in ecology studies.

No, you don't incorporate every conjecture into your understanding, or you have no viable way of determining anything. You can have as many hypotheses as you'd like, but they only get included in our theories when they have sufficient evidence to justify them.

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It is possible that beginning with this assumption instead of the normal materialistic one.... could yield better and more realistic results for analysis and making predictions.  At least some people should try it IMO.

On the practical level, materialism isn't a presumption, it's a conclusion. The conclusion is that we work on a material understanding because, as yet, nothing else has been put forward which is reliable. If and when that happens, when another viable methodology is put forward, then we'll integrate that understanding with the scientific one, but until then it's just conjecture.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Maeght

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 04:40:49 PM »
The Unconscious mind has been known to take decisions even before the conscious mind is aware of it. This means that some sort of a communication is taking place between the unconscious mind and the environment even before the conscious mind is aware of it.

Yes, via our senses of sight, sound touch etc

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Mystics and spiritual people experience the positive effects of prayer, illnesses getting cured suddenly, telepathy and clairvoyance, premonitions, synchronicity....and so on.   

All these phenomena if seen together, it suggests some sort of a connection between all people, all life forms and perhaps even non life objects.

Not to me, especially since there is no evidence to suggest any of those are real things.

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The first reaction from sceptics would be one of dismissing such ideas as 'supernatural' and as related to the belief in God.

No, nothing to do with God - but to do with beliefs certainly.

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This is incorrect. The common connection between all life forms need not be supernatural or anything 'out there'. It can be a very natural connection that we cannot observe through our senses but could nevertheless exist. Like the magnetic field of the earth.

It could be - but there is no evidnce to date for such a thing so in the absence of that it is a belief.

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The second objection would be about evidence.  Well...the evidence is all around us and the above observations are the evidence.

Nope.

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We must remember that only in directly observable phenomena that the observation comes first and the theory follows later.  In abstract matters and phenomena that we cannot observe directly...the theory or hypothesis comes first and then the observation and gathering of data follow to confirm  the theory. The ideas of Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Parallel Universes....even the predictions of certain elementary articles...are in the second category.

No doubt, at this point of time the idea of a common connection or web like field of some kind is a conjecture (a hypothesis)......but it is important to recognise it as a possibility and to incorporate it in theories of the mind, social behaviour and in ecology studies.

It is possible that beginning with this assumption instead of the normal materialistic one.... could yield better and more realistic results for analysis and making predictions.  At least some people should try it IMO.

Sure, keep an open mind about the possibilities - but look for evidence that can be supported, tested and falsified before getting too carried away.

ippy

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 05:43:05 PM »
Safe to say the first two responses to your OP have buried you again Sriram, been into "Ted" have we?

ippy

torridon

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 12:27:07 PM »

The Unconscious mind has been known to take decisions even before the conscious mind is aware of it. This means that some sort of a communication is taking place between the unconscious mind and the environment even before the conscious mind is aware of it.


Nothing spooky, or new, about that.  Subconscious perception precedes conscious perception, how could it possibly be otherwise ?  Consciousness is very expensive, only need-to-know stuff gets into our conscious awareness.  New research demonstrates that humans can do simple arithmetic and parse grammatical structures in subconscious mind, without ever realising they were doing it, or without ever making a knowing effort to calculate.

Sriram

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2016, 04:32:06 AM »
Nothing spooky, or new, about that.  Subconscious perception precedes conscious perception, how could it possibly be otherwise ?  Consciousness is very expensive, only need-to-know stuff gets into our conscious awareness.  New research demonstrates that humans can do simple arithmetic and parse grammatical structures in subconscious mind, without ever realising they were doing it, or without ever making a knowing effort to calculate.


 :D I never said that anything was spooky.  You keep saying that. Spooky...woo...out there....supernatural... are all words many of you use to relegate anything you don't understand to a 'dismissed' status.

I wonder by the same definition, why Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Parallel universes, Strings and other such  cannot be categorized as 'woo' or 'spooky'?!  None of them can be sensed in any way. They are just conjecture and perhaps mathematical possibilities. 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 04:56:38 AM by Sriram »

Leonard James

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2016, 06:20:31 AM »
Give up, Sriram! You are chasing rainbows.

Udayana

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2016, 09:14:21 AM »
Falsifiability.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Free Willy

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2016, 10:36:42 AM »


On the practical level, materialism isn't a presumption, it's a conclusion. The conclusion is that we work on a material understanding because, as yet, nothing else has been put forward which is reliable. If and when that happens, when another viable methodology is put forward, then we'll integrate that understanding with the scientific one, but until then it's just conjecture.

O.
a quiet confusion between methodological materialism and it's inconclusive cousin philosophical materialism.

Use of just the word materialism should be cause for suspicion here since it is by no means certain that philosophical materialism is conclusive and certainly methodological materialism has nothing to say on that matter.

Another point which should come with a health warning is the incompetence of other ways we process our universe. We can note from your posts that you propose all these ''non methodologies'' are incompetent....except, note, the one that leads to the conclusion of philosophical materialism. That is just special pleading I'm afraid.

Secondly, in terms of methodological materialism Chomsky has noted increased ineffectiveness in science the further we go from pure science.

 What is more effective is what they call the ''unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics''. There is a strong argument made that if there is a correspondence of mathematics to religious language then there is no real difference between string talk ,multiverse talk and religious talk.

Source. Are We Alone, Penguin books, Paul Davies.

Outrider

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2016, 04:05:24 PM »
a quiet confusion between methodological materialism and it's inconclusive cousin philosophical materialism.

One is the practical application of the other - you can apply it without accepting the philosophical basis as an entirety, but you can also deduce from the practical that the philosophical is a reasonable basis until further evidence presents itself.

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Use of just the word materialism should be cause for suspicion here since it is by no means certain that philosophical materialism is conclusive and certainly methodological materialism has nothing to say on that matter.

No, but logical deduction from one system that consistently works set against a variety of non-methodologies that don't leads to its own conclusion. It's definitively true, but it's provisionally valid.

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Another point which should come with a health warning is the incompetence of other ways we process our universe. We can note from your posts that you propose all these ''non methodologies'' are incompetent....except, note, the one that leads to the conclusion of philosophical materialism. That is just special pleading I'm afraid.

It's self-referential, yes, but in a purely subjective understanding of reality what other option do we have? It's a self-referential philosophy that produces consistent results and accurate predictions, against the other non-methodologies which don't.

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Secondly, in terms of methodological materialism Chomsky has noted increased ineffectiveness in science the further we go from pure science.

Who would have thought that the more complex and less immediately measurable a situation was, the less useful a system of making predictions of simple systems from measurable results might be...

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What is more effective is what they call the ''unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics''. There is a strong argument made that if there is a correspondence of mathematics to religious language then there is no real difference between string talk ,multiverse talk and religious talk.

That's a) a pretty large 'if' in the middle of that, and b) just as much a conjecture as the religious language was in the first place. It still lacks any capacity to verify it - you can demonstrate that the mathematics works, but how can you show that the unverifiable religious claims in any way cleave to it?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Free Willy

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2016, 04:39:12 PM »
One is the practical application of the other - you can apply it without accepting the philosophical basis as an entirety, but you can also deduce from the practical that the philosophical is a reasonable basis until further evidence presents itself.

No, but logical deduction from one system that consistently works set against a variety of non-methodologies that don't leads to its own conclusion. It's definitively true, but it's provisionally valid.

It's self-referential, yes, but in a purely subjective understanding of reality what other option do we have? It's a self-referential philosophy that produces consistent results and accurate predictions, against the other non-methodologies which don't.

No it is not a self referential philosophy since the philosophy does not yield any results or predicts anything except everything that really exists is material. That hasn't been demonstrated let alone with accuracy and is certainly not confirmed by methodological materialism. In other words I am correct in saying you are specially pleading philosophical materialism.

Bubbles

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 08:11:48 PM »
I can feel the interconnective stuff while I sit in total safety ( and in some ways sat apart from nature) the minute I become perspective lunch for a shark or tiger  it tends to go to pot!

Just being honest here  ;)

Outrider

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 09:42:20 AM »
No it is not a self referential philosophy since the philosophy does not yield any results or predicts anything except everything that really exists is material.

If you apply the philosophy you get science, which has been massively successful at accurately depicting the reality we appear to co-exist within. That demonstrates a reasonable basis for presuming that philosophical materialism has some validity. The absence of any consistent demonstration of anything similar from anywhere else leaves philosophical materialism as the only valid game in town until someone comes up with something else that actually works.

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That hasn't been demonstrated let alone with accuracy and is certainly not confirmed by methodological materialism. In other words I am correct in saying you are specially pleading philosophical materialism.

No, you're still trying to reduce everything to 'nobody has any basis for anything' because your own personal pet preference is reduced to that.

Science - the practical application of philosophical materialism - works. So far, nothing else does.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Bubbles

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2016, 10:36:27 AM »
If you apply the philosophy you get science, which has been massively successful at accurately depicting the reality we appear to co-exist within. That demonstrates a reasonable basis for presuming that philosophical materialism has some validity. The absence of any consistent demonstration of anything similar from anywhere else leaves philosophical materialism as the only valid game in town until someone comes up with something else that actually works.

No, you're still trying to reduce everything to 'nobody has any basis for anything' because your own personal pet preference is reduced to that.

Science - the practical application of philosophical materialism - works. So far, nothing else does.

O.

It does for me  ;)


Leonard James

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2016, 10:41:37 AM »
It does for me  ;)

Then you either can't or haven't thought deeply enough!

Bubbles

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2016, 10:54:20 AM »
Then you either can't or haven't thought deeply enough!

I have, I just don't see that reducing everything down until it loses its meaning, does anything for me.

I want my life to be enjoyable, not a series of unavoidable chemical reactions.

It's like the " free will doesn't exist" argument.

It takes away something from me.

Something that is just "me"

By the time scientists have taken away my free will, told me my consciousness is an illusion and love doesn't exist, what's left?

A few meaty joints on a rack of bones?

http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/you-dont-really-exist-do-you.html


It's not very inspiring and makes me ask what am I then?, to which science seems to reply a bag of bones with meat attached reacting in a preconceived way.

I don't even get the luxury of being "me"

No wonder it hasn't got many followers.

It isn't the way I see life and people, reduced to their components.

Seriously I think religion does a lot better sometimes.

Science can go OTT with the reductionist stuff, sometimes.

It isn't that I think I'm more that the other animals on the planet, they get their " me" removed too ...... Worse than humans do.......





« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 11:06:42 AM by Rose »

Outrider

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2016, 11:01:54 AM »
It does for me  ;)

Whether it works or not as an accurate depiction of reality isn't a subjective understanding. You can be comfortable with something else, that's fine.

That something might be right, even though (because, say, of our limited current understanding) it's not something that's useful to us as a model.

It doesn't currently work as an accurate depiction of reality, though, because of that objective inconsistency.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2016, 11:07:29 AM »
I have, I just don't see that reducing everything down until it loses its meaning, does anything for me.

I don't see a) why reducing it down somehow makes anything 'lose meaning' or why you presume there's any meaning there in the first place.

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I want my life to be enjoyable, not a series of unavoidable chemical reactions.

I don't see why it can't be both. My life is an unavoidable sequence of events, my nature is the subjective understanding of a pattern of bioneural activities, but whilst that's happening I'm enjoying the fact that it is.

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It's like the " free will doesn't exist" argument.

I don't see why - whether we enjoy living isn't dependent upon the nature of life, it's about a subjective appreciation of the activity.

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It takes away something from me.

Given that it's either the case or it isn't, it doesn't actually take anything away: if it's right, you never had what you thought you had in the first place.

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Something that is just "me"

Which comes back to 'what are you', and whilst you have an answer that makes you happy, there's no mechanism to verify that it's even part of the truth, let alone all of it. The scientific model, by contrast, can explain everything, doesn't have any gaps, and is demonstrable for everyone as at least part of the explanation.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Bubbles

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2016, 11:19:37 AM »
Whether it works or not as an accurate depiction of reality isn't a subjective understanding. You can be comfortable with something else, that's fine.

That something might be right, even though (because, say, of our limited current understanding) it's not something that's useful to us as a model.

It doesn't currently work as an accurate depiction of reality, though, because of that objective inconsistency.

O.

There is science and then there are other things that make life enjoyable that cannot be easily measured.

Like Art

Drama

Beauty

Music

Science only tells us their physical composition.

There are some " perceptions" it can't measure.

You can't measure a beautiful sunset or a rainbow, science  just explains the physical side of it.

Science can explore and play notes in music etc but it takes a human mind to create a beautiful piece of music.

Science cannot grasp and measure, imagination.

You can't put that under a microscope.

Not yet anyway  :o




« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 11:21:25 AM by Rose »

Free Willy

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2016, 11:38:32 AM »
If you apply the philosophy you get science, which has been massively successful at accurately depicting the reality we appear to co-exist within. That demonstrates a reasonable basis for presuming that philosophical materialism has some validity. The absence of any consistent demonstration of anything similar from anywhere else leaves philosophical materialism as the only valid game in town until someone comes up with something else that actually works.

No, you're still trying to reduce everything to 'nobody has any basis for anything' because your own personal pet preference is reduced to that.

Science - the practical application of philosophical materialism - works. So far, nothing else does.

O.
Your post is spin Rider.
There is no need for any application of philosophical materialism in order for science/methodolical materialism to operate.

In fact science in the development of the human race does not derive from an environment of philosophical materialism
But from an intellectual belief in God being the lawgiver of a created universe.

Philosophical materialism derives from faith in and an ontological punt from the methodology and of course by the confusion either deliberate or through ignorance
Of the methodology and philosophy.

What you are suggesting........your bit of woo if you will.........is that everyone has an inner philosophical materialist from whom any scientific work progresses. Any inner PM has nothing to contribute to the methodology which is in fact a tool we can and do all use.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 11:43:51 AM by On stage before it wore off. »

Leonard James

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2016, 12:05:41 PM »
I have, I just don't see that reducing everything down until it loses its meaning, does anything for me.

I want my life to be enjoyable, not a series of unavoidable chemical reactions.

It's like the " free will doesn't exist" argument.

It takes away something from me.

Something that is just "me"

By the time scientists have taken away my free will, told me my consciousness is an illusion and love doesn't exist, what's left?

A few meaty joints on a rack of bones?

http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/you-dont-really-exist-do-you.html


It's not very inspiring and makes me ask what am I then?, to which science seems to reply a bag of bones with meat attached reacting in a preconceived way.

I don't even get the luxury of being "me"

No wonder it hasn't got many followers.

It isn't the way I see life and people, reduced to their components.

Seriously I think religion does a lot better sometimes.

Science can go OTT with the reductionist stuff, sometimes.

It isn't that I think I'm more that the other animals on the planet, they get their " me" removed too ...... Worse than humans do.......

What on earth was all that about?

Knowing what causes emotions in no way detracts from experiencing them. I am every bit as capable of feeling love, admiration joy and sadness as anybody else.

Free Willy

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2016, 12:35:27 PM »
What on earth was all that about?

Knowing what causes emotions in no way detracts from experiencing them. I am every bit as capable of feeling love, admiration joy and sadness as anybody else.
Yeah Len and while you are doing all of that you aren't doing reductionist methodological materialism.

Shaker

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2016, 12:40:03 PM »
500 points!
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Free Willy

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2016, 01:00:51 PM »
500 points!
Shaker there are plenty of online games.

There is a suitable on for you. I think it's called Angry Turds or birds or something.

Leonard James

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Re: Interconnection
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2016, 01:04:09 PM »
Yeah Len and while you are doing all of that you aren't doing reductionist methodological materialism.

Well thank you for letting me know. Does that mean anything?