Homeopathy!

[Owlswing]

And you couldn't read the second post  on this? Really?

It works both ways - the Devil can quote scripture to his purpose!

[Enki]

From Sriram's post 37:

I have also provided the opinion of some Nobel laureates in the OP. That's what this thread is about you know!

Good, then you won't mind me mentioning the views of Venkatraman Ramakrishnan who is a structural biologist and current president of the Royal Society. He dismissed both homeopathy and astrology as 'bogus, harmful and useless'. I think he said this only a few days ago. Oh, I nearly forgot, he is also a Nobel laureate in Chemistry.

[Owlswing]

From Sriram's post 37:


Good, then you won't mind me mentioning the views of Venkatraman Ramakrishnan who is a structural biologist and current president of the Royal Society. He dismissed both homeopathy and astrology as 'bogus, harmful and useless'. I think he said this only a few days ago. Oh, I nearly forgot, he is also a Nobel laureate in Chemistry.

So these qualifications mean that he has never, ever, made a mistake?

The last man that perfect who was on this Earth wound up on a cross.

[Sriram]

From Sriram's post 37:


Good, then you won't mind me mentioning the views of Venkatraman Ramakrishnan who is a structural biologist and current president of the Royal Society. He dismissed both homeopathy and astrology as 'bogus, harmful and useless'. I think he said this only a few days ago. Oh, I nearly forgot, he is also a Nobel laureate in Chemistry.

enki,

I am not talking about a person offering just a random personal comment about something. V.Ramakrishnan is no different from anyone else when it comes to a off-the-cuff opinion on something including homeopathy.  What has his Nobel prize got to do with it?

The Nobel Laureates I was referring to in the OP have actually done some work on homeopathy and are commenting based on that. They cannot be accused of not understanding the scientific method or of lying for some personal gain. 

I am also commenting on homeopathy based on my personal experience with it for more than 30 years.

People don't seem to understand that different legitimate systems of medicine exist around the world all of which are useful in certain areas and not equally useful in all areas. 

Equating systems such as Homeopathy, Ayurveda and Acupuncture  with snake oil vending is ignorance born of lack of exposure. Dubbing something as 'just placebo'  is also ignorance because no one knows what placebo really is.

[L.A.]

When you want prescribed a placebo or homeopathy for Ebola, get back to me.

Hi NS,

most doctors would acknowledge that the 'white coat' and (unused)stethoscope can be an important part of the treatment. Drug trials often show little difference between the drug under test and the placebo (though both may be effective).

Psychological effects can have an enormous effect on the healing process and are not well understood, but the placebo effect is very real and homeopathy seems to exploit this to good effect.

[Aruntraveller]

Equating systems such as Homeopathy, Ayurveda and Acupuncture 

Whoa hold on a minute. Nobody has done that with either Ayurveda or Acupuncture.

I know little about Ayurveda so cannot comment on that, but Acupuncture is recognised as a legitimate treatment especially for chronic lower back pain - and indeed is used by some hospitals in the UK. The reason for using Acupuncture is because there is scientific evidence that backs up the effectiveness of acupuncture - scientific evidence that is singularly lacking in the case of homeopathy.

[Nearly Sane]

Hi NS,

most doctors would acknowledge that the 'white coat' and (unused)stethoscope can be an important part of the treatment. Drug trials often show little difference between the drug under test and the placebo (though both may be effective).

Psychological effects can have an enormous effect on the healing process and are not well understood, but the placebo effect is very real and homeopathy seems to exploit this to good effect.

Or exploits it to very very bad effect.

I find the use of placebo, which as Sriram rightly points out we don't understand, to back up an argument for something that performs no better than it, just bizarre.


If this is, and I suspect you are right, about psychology then we should not be dressing it up in clothes for a real effect from shaken water. The claims being made for homeopathy are precisely snake oil claims since the same would literally be true if snake oil. Investigate placebo certainly, don't use it to give faux respectability to claims that are not validated.


There are too many exploitative wanks across the Web and in real life waving their 'cures' and telling people to throw away their treatments to ignore. This sort of stuff is not only no better, it is way worse than the dangers of the anti vaxxer loons.

[Maeght]

Manuka Honey isn't homeopathy is it?

[Outrider]

People are demonising a form of medicine just because they have decided it doesn't work - fine, as long as those of you who are Christian etc give up prayer for the same reason because I say it doesn't work.

No, they haven't 'decided' it doesn't work, they've tested it and concluded from the evidence that it doesn't work.

Nowhere have I seen any claim the homeopathic medicines will cure AIDS, Ebola, typhus, or syphilis but sure as the Goddess made little apples someone here will soon claim there has been.

There have been claims that homeopathy can immunise against certain conditions (malaria and measles are two I've seen alleged), there have been claims that it can reduce bruising and swelling, cure earache and hayfever - no evidence supports any of these claims.

As has been stated there have been cases where sugar pills have 'cured' illnesses, if it works don't knock it!

The placebo effect is well-documented, if not well understood. The placebo effect works even if you know you're getting a placebo. No amount of placebo can immunise you from malaria or measles.

Homeopathy lies, and charges over the odds for the privilege of lying to you. It's fraud.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

If people are wondering why I mentioned Ebola, see link below

http://tinyurl.com/ldykl4a

[L.A.]

Or exploits it to very very bad effect.

I find the use of placebo, which as Sriram rightly points out we don't understand, to back up an argument for something that performs no better than it, just bizarre.


If this is, and I suspect you are right, about psychology then we should not be dressing it up in clothes for a real effect from shaken water. The claims being made for homeopathy are precisely snake oil claims since the same would literally be true if snake oil. Investigate placebo certainly, don't use it to give faux respectability to claims that are not validated.


There are too many exploitative wanks across the Web and in real life waving their 'cures' and telling people to throw away their treatments to ignore. This sort of stuff is not only no better, it is way worse than the dangers of the anti vaxxer loons.

I agree that their are charlatans who will quite cynically rip people off but I don't think that Homeopathic Practitioners generally fall into this category.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree that their are charlatans who will quite cynically rip people off but I don't think that Homeopathic Practitioners generally fall into this category.

Touting non evidenced claims is charlatanry.

[Bubbles]

Manuka Honey isn't homeopathy is it?

No it's not, but at the time it was controversial.

 

[Maeght]

Indeed - but just wanted to highlight that often discussions about homeopathy drift off into other areas such as herbalism, accupunture, sugar pills etc and this can muddy the waters. Homeopathy is specifically about whether huge dilutions of certain materials (curing like with like), which mean that you are actually not taking in any of that material, can have a health benefit due to some memory of that material retained by the water you are drinking isn't it? There is no scientific evidence that such a phenomena exists or that such treatments have any greater effect than the placebo effect (whatever that truely is).

Sriram, when you talk about your positive effects through using homeopathy are you talking about such materials (memory water?) or something else?

[L.A.]

Touting non evidenced claims is charlatanry.

If you go to a Homeopathic practitioner with (say) bad hayfever and you are given a 'remedy' that greatly relieves you symptoms - how is that charlatanry?

If it works it works! and you would probably be very great full, and that kind of scenario seems to be typical of what happens.

[Outrider]

If you go to a Homeopathic practitioner with (say) bad hayfever and you are given a 'remedy' that greatly relieves you symptoms - how is that charlatanry?

Because the evidence suggests that the remedy doesn't do anything. You might well feel better, but that could be due to any number of factors (regression to the mean, confirmation bias and the placebo effect being amongst them). I recommend the section in Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Science' on homeopathy for a great explanation.

If it works it works! and you would probably be very great full, and that kind of scenario seems to be typical of what happens.

It doesn't work. The remedy itself doesn't work.

The 'treatment experience', to an extent, might, but the remedy doesn't, and being charged that much  for something that doesn't work is fraudulent.

O.

[jeremyp]

You made a comment on a medical procedure - a seriously dismissive comment

Homeopathy is not a medical procedure, it's actually a fraudulent procedure.

which, without a medical qualification is of no value whatsoever. It is a personal belief and not a professional, and therefore relevant, opinion.

Is an opinion backed by scientific research.

[jeremyp]

Therein lies the differnce in our perspective.

Homeopathy involves the administration of a substance, a medicine.

I had a glass of a medicine this morning - dihydrogen monoxide in fact. Maybe it should be available only on prescription.

[jeremyp]

Indeed. The administration of water in expensive packaging, however, is the area of expertise of Coca Cola.

O.

Coca cola does at least contain a drug.

[jeremyp]

So these qualifications mean that he has never, ever, made a mistake?

The last man that perfect who was on this Earth wound up on a cross.

No, David Bowie died of cancer.

[jeremyp]

The reason for using Acupuncture is because there is scientific evidence that backs up the effectiveness of acupuncture.

Is there? Can you provide a reference please.

[L.A.]

Quote from: L.A. on Today at 11:26:35 AM
If you go to a Homeopathic practitioner with (say) bad hayfever and you are given a 'remedy' that greatly relieves you symptoms - how is that charlatanry?

Because the evidence suggests that the remedy doesn't do anything. You might well feel better, but that could be due to any number of factors (regression to the mean, confirmation bias and the placebo effect being amongst them). I recommend the section in Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Science' on homeopathy for a great explanation.

Outsider,

the whole object of the exercise is to make the patient feel better. If the treatment achieves this - then it has worked even if the exact mechanism is not understood.

[Maeght]

The problem comes though when such treatments are extended into trying to treat more serious conditions. if you give a veneer of scientific credibility this is more likely to happen.

[Nearly Sane]

Because the evidence suggests that the remedy doesn't do anything. You might well feel better, but that could be due to any number of factors (regression to the mean, confirmation bias and the placebo effect being amongst them). I recommend the section in Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Science' on homeopathy for a great explanation.

Outsider,

the whole object of the exercise is to make the patient feel better. If the treatment achieves this - then it has worked even if the exact mechanism is not understood.

No, the treatment hasn't worked as Outrider had already pointed out.

[jeremyp]

the whole object of the exercise is to make the patient feel better.

No, the whole object is to make the patient better.