Homeopathy!

[Outrider]

While its true that a placebo is a chemically inert substance....the purpose is to mentally deceive the patient and to bring about a psychological and perhaps psychosomatic cure/relief.

That can be one of the purposes, but it's not the only one - when you're conducting medical trials, you can trial your pill against a placebo in order to eliminate the placebo effect and see what difference in outcomes is purely due to the treatment you are trialling.

O.

[jeremyp]

In many cases (eg hay fever) - it amounts to the same thing.

No it doesn't. If it did, the pharmaceuticals industry would produce nothing but pain killers.

[jeremyp]

You could start here although it is a medical resource and as such is difficult to read. There is a plain speaking section in each report however(iirc) which gives an outline of the effectiveness.

Acupuncture works well for some problems and not at all for others.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cochranelibrary/search

Acupuncture is just sticking pins into people. People can't even agree on which places to put the pins for which ailments.

It's just another placebo.

[jeremyp]

because one of my lads was treated successfully by homeopathy, for eczema.

Eczema will clear up on its own if left to its own devices.

The homeopath, explained that all that is required is the energy pattern of the substance being used.

That's pseudo science. Water consists of huge quantities of molecules all moving about, making and breaking bonds with other molecules all the time. The only way to sustain a pattern of any sort is to stop them from moving about so much. We call it ice when it is in that state.

[jeremyp]

Wasn't there a study that found that expensive placebos were more effective than cheaper ones?

No.

The important thing is they have to look expensive. It's not the cost of the pills that matters but how expensive looking the packaging is. e.g. Nurofen works better than generic ibuprofen unless you put the generic ibuprofen in the Nurofen packaging.

Another effect is that placebos become more effective depending on how serious the treatment looks. A neutral saline injection works better than a sugar pill.

[jeremyp]

Incidentally, even though I know about the expensiveness effect, it still works on me. Nurofen works better on me than Boots own brand.

[Udayana]

Right, so it is a matter of confidence in the product. Wonder if there is a general principle to be extracted - maybe this could explain why people think private medicine is more effective than the NHS, or private schools better than state schools?

"Free" indicating that things have no value.

[jeremyp]

Right, so it is a matter of confidence in the product. Wonder if there is a general principle to be extracted - maybe this could explain why people think private medicine is more effective than the NHS, or private schools better than state schools?

There might be something in it as far as the hospitals go but with private schooling, the person paying is not the person receiving the "treatment".

There is a different process at work in the case of schools (in my opinion). People often defend their own choices, especially if they have spent their money on them. In the UK you can get your children educated for free but if you have chosen to spend vast quantities of cash on it, of course you are going to be defensive.

Do you remember Top Gear used to do a customer satisfaction survey of car owners in Britain and Vauxhall Vectras consistently did very badly. Was this because they were bad cars or because the majority of them were company cars "forced" on their keepers.

I spend a lot of money on Apple products. I would claim this is because their laptops are the best money can buy. Is that really the case or am I just rationalising my choice?

[ippy]

Acupuncture is just sticking pins into people. People can't even agree on which places to put the pins for which ailments.

It's just another placebo.

I remember hearing someone that obviously was healthily sceptical about such things as acupuncture I think he was a vet, yes, he was trying acupuncture, with some success on animals, that's all I remember.

I share your view and can't remember where or when I saw or heard this, but I can remember thinking to myself to put my previous view, not unlike yours, on hold, a kind of, watch this space.

ippy

[jeremyp]

I remember hearing someone that obviously was healthily sceptical about such things as acupuncture I think he was a vet, yes, he was trying acupuncture, with some success on animals, that's all I remember.

And there are vets who use homeopathy on animals with some success. The reason it works is the same though: confirmation bias. Obviously, with acupuncture it is very hard to do a double blind trial, but some attempts have been made with no sign of a real effect.

[ippy]

And there are vets who use homeopathy on animals with some success. The reason it works is the same though: confirmation bias. Obviously, with acupuncture it is very hard to do a double blind trial, but some attempts have been made with no sign of a real effect.

Yes J P, I agree with you, I'm more or less on hold with this one, sort of you prove it, I'll believe it.

ippy

[ippy]

Wasn't there a study that found that expensive placebos were more effective than cheaper ones?

Yes the expensive placebos were more effective than cheaper ones at making supplier of the placebos happy.

Which proves that they do work.

ippy

[Owlswing]

because one of my lads was treated successfully by homeopathy, for eczema

Eczema will clear up on its own if left to its own devices.

Yoiu wish!

Eczema is a bloody nasty thing to have; a continual itch that cannot be scratched without serious coonsequential physical injury. I used to suffer as part of the problems with my asthma. The two are often linked.

Thankfully, after about two years of treatment, it cleared up and has not returned.

To leave it to its own devices can end up in one of two ways - serious injury from scratching to relieve the itch or raving insanity from the inability to do anything about the itch.

Fortunately most sufferers give up on the first fairly rapidly and seek treatment and those who try the second seek treatment even more quickly.

[Maeght]

I think it depends on how old Sweet Pea's 'lad' was. Childhood eczema usually clears up on its own I believe but adult eczema is a different matter.

[jeremyp]

Yoiu wish!

Eczema is a bloody nasty thing to have; a continual itch that cannot be scratched without serious coonsequential physical injury. I used to suffer as part of the problems with my asthma. The two are often linked.

And yet it will clear up on its own, perhaps not in all cases, otherwise homeopathy would not be effective.

[Owlswing]

And yet it will clear up on its own, perhaps not in all cases, otherwise homeopathy would not be effective.

There are none as blind as they who will not see! And you sure won't even look.

[jeremyp]

There are none as blind as they who will not see! And you sure won't even look.

Homeopathy. does. not. work.

There is no way it does anything. It's bollocks, crap, snake oil. It's just water. People who sell homeopathic remedies while claiming they do  anything are committing fraud.

[SqueakyVoice]

There are none as blind as they who will not see! And you sure won't even look.

Nope. We looked. It's shit. We just don't know why you're still looking at shit.

[Rhiannon]

And yet it will clear up on its own, perhaps not in all cases, otherwise homeopathy would not be effective.

Not if it's caused by an allergy. Unless the allergen's removed it won't resolve.

[ippy]

Homeopathy. does. not. work.

There is no way it does anything. It's bollocks, crap, snake oil. It's just water. People who sell homeopathic remedies while claiming they do  anything are committing fraud.

The way they dilute whatever they think works, I suppose it would be safe to take cyanide prepared in the same way as homeopathic, so called, medicine is prepared.

ippy   

[Owlswing]

Homeopathy. does. not. work.

There is no way it does anything. It's bollocks, crap, snake oil. It's just water. People who sell homeopathic remedies while claiming they do  anything are committing fraud.

You live up to your byline!

You really will not see that there can be any view but your own. If YOU do not believe in it, it MUST be wrong. There can be no alternative to Jeremyp's way, oipinion, worldview. On anything.

[Owlswing]

Nope. We looked. It's shit. We just don't know why you're still looking at shit.

You really will not see that there can be any view but your own. If YOU do not believe in it, it MUST be wrong. There can be no alternative to Jeremyp's way, oipinion, worldview. On anything.

[Owlswing]

The way they dilute whatever they think works, I suppose it would be safe to take cyanide prepared in the same way as homeopathic, so called, medicine is prepared.

ippy

No homeopathist ever administered a known lethal poison - not even someone a stupid as JeremyP and SqueakyVoice believe homeopathists to be would, without deliberate murderous intent, do so.

[Red Giant]

Not if it's caused by an allergy. Unless the allergen's removed it won't resolve.

It might if you encourage the body to produce adrenalin or steroids.

[Red Giant]

Homeopathy. does. not. work.

Yes it does.  Psychosomatic illnesses are real illnesses, and very common, and can be cured by appropriate treatment.

But the medical profession will just say "it's all in the mind" and leave you to die.

Yes, it's all in the mind, but you still need help.  If that means being conned, well, the mind's like that.  If it's not kept conned, it loses the will to live.

Placebos are especially appropriate for children who are made ill by their mothers.  They get better when their mothers expect them to.

This may be why acupuncture works on dogs.  I bet it wouldn't work on cats.