Author Topic: Are Labour Dead In The Water?  (Read 26713 times)

L.A.

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2016, 11:47:55 AM »
On a specific point, you might want to edit that part of the post, it seems to imply direct bribery.

Well it was widely publicised that all-and-sundry could 'buy' a vote in the election by making an online payment . Is that as bribery or stupidity?

I don't pretend to know.
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jakswan

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2016, 11:57:50 AM »
I think your idea that there is an easy left/right split on this is a nonsense, or rather I think that the right left split itself is a bit of a nonsense.

Ahh well I think you are talking nonsense as well. There isn't an absolute left /right split but there is a split.

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There is a strong push against immigration from some traditional Labour voters, in part because inherent racism, but also because they see it as an essentially capitalist idea and about reducing wages. It's too easy to forget that the left have an issue on Europe and there have always been those supportive of being outside because they see it as essentially a capitalist neo liberal trading bloc. There is a good chance I would suggest that the EU vote could be an 'out' because of votes from the left. I've seen a lot of discussion amongst Greens that despite what the leadership say they will vote out because of TTIP, and there are growing comments on that in both Labour and the SNP, never mind the various small socialist groupings.

Don't disagree.

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As for UKIP itself, it's an odd mixture of free market and protectionist, right and left, but in the last election I think did more damage to Labour than Tories.

Agree don't think I wrote anything that would disagree.

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It is undoubted that the SNP are toxic, in idea more than anything else - and because in the main by a concerted attempt by Con, Lib Dems, and Labour to make them so,  to some but not all non Scottish voters, just enough to make a difference - particularly in the GE, Lib Dem voters. I don't think it is the rhetoric - I think it is the rhetoric about them, that Labour because of their own issues in Scotland sometimes tacitly, sometimes openly supported - and, of course, added to do by a Lib Dem minister leaking an wrong memo. What rhetoric of Sturgeon do you think was so toxic?

Oh come off it, independence is guaranteed if the SNP are seen as toxic by rUK. Dear me NS the SNP are a slick party of politicians and very good at what they do, Sturgeon bangs the drum for fighting for what is best for the Scottish people and knows full well how that comes across elsewhere.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2016, 01:04:47 PM »

All true, just not really that much to do with Corbyn. The party is indulging in backstabbing and part of it is happy to go along with and be used by Tory attacks to try and get rid of Corbyn. Again, he's the symptom, not the cause.
I disagree - he is largely the cause.

Firstly because he is woefully inexperienced in leadership terms having never really held any position that requires authority and leadership (despite being 66, which tell you a lot). Secondly the key group he has to lead, first and foremost, his MPs largely disagree with him and did not support him as leader. And finally because he is so clearly out of step with the mainstream views within the country, the views of those voters who make the difference between a party winning and losing - he might speak to a few hundred thousand armchair political anoraks (including many of those £3 'supporters') he does speak to the millions who need change and won't get change if the opposition is unelectable.

Let's not forget that for all the failings of Miliband as a leader there wasn't the levels of concern and division that we see now - the cause is Corbyn. I doubt we'd have been seeing the party tearing itself apart had (for example) Burnham been elected.

Shaker

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2016, 01:10:10 PM »
Who is truer to the political ideals and principles that the Labour Party* was founded upon, Corbyn or the rabble of Tory-lite malcontents against him who don't even belong in the party in the first place? There's no "tearing apart," only the disaffection of clueless Thatcherites terminally confused about which party they should be in.

* ("I joined the Labour Party, not the New Labour Party." - Tony Benn).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 01:15:31 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2016, 01:19:38 PM »
Dear Me,

The ah well! of British society.

1. ah well it is okay that we have to fight for a living wage.

2. ah well, food banks, ah well.

3. ah well google are only paying 3% tax, ah well.

4. ah well, bed room tax, ah well.

5. Bunch of immigrants, ah well.

6. Price of a train ticket, ah well.

7. Budget cuts, ah well.

8. EU exit, ah well.

9. NHS, A&E under pressure, ah well.

10. Bombing innocent civilians, ah well.

Maybe it should be, so what or who cares, well Mr Corbyn cares.

Gonnagle.
Lot's of people care Gonners. The point about being in politics is to place yourself in a position where you can actually do something about it - and if your in opposition you can 'care' all you like, but you can't change anything.

That's what is so frustrating at the moment - however 'caring' Corbyn might be he is the worst enemy of those who need change. Why - because by making his party clearly so unelectable he ensures that rather than a left of centre government being in power in 2020 that might actually start to enact change, we will continue to have the Tories who are largely disinterested at best, or actively antagonistic to those issues at worst.

And actually Corbyn isn't even effectively banging on about those issues - frankly he seems so obsessed with the purity of his political ideal that he isn't even dealing with these key points. Indeed he comes across as a kind of left wing elderly lecturer, making sterile and theoretical arguments (and fudges), harking back to the politics of the 70s and 80s, rather than putting forward any actual practical steps to address those issues which you quite rightly recognise as critical to the future of Britain.

Sadly with Corbyn in leadership it won't be him or his party (however well meaning) setting the agenda through to 2025, but the Tories, and I hate to think how many permanent (and negative changes) they will have enacted by them.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2016, 01:29:46 PM »
I disagree - he is largely the cause.

Firstly because he is woefully inexperienced in leadership terms having never really held any position that requires authority and leadership (despite being 66, which tell you a lot). Secondly the key group he has to lead, first and foremost, his MPs largely disagree with him and did not support him as leader. And finally because he is so clearly out of step with the mainstream views within the country, the views of those voters who make the difference between a party winning and losing - he might speak to a few hundred thousand armchair political anoraks (including many of those £3 'supporters') he does speak to the millions who need change and won't get change if the opposition is unelectable.

Let's not forget that for all the failings of Miliband as a leader there wasn't the levels of concern and division that we see now - the cause is Corbyn. I doubt we'd have been seeing the party tearing itself apart had (for example) Burnham been elected.

Well I suppose this is the final nail in the coffin of the Kalam, what began to exist, Corbyn's leadership, is the cause of why it began to exist, according to you.


Corbyn is only leader because the Labour Party had no idea what it was for, was scared to vote against welfare cuts (or indeed for them), had a least had a disjunct between members and MPs,and now after Corbyn was elected has members who want to blame their infighting purely on him.

Blaming Corbyn for the Tories domination may make you feel good, but you should start realising that you are part of the issue too.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2016, 01:29:53 PM »
Who is truer to the political ideals and principles that the Labour Party* was founded upon, Corbyn or the rabble of Tory-lite malcontents against him who don't even belong in the party in the first place? There's no "tearing apart," only the disaffection of clueless Thatcherites terminally confused about which party they should be in.

* ("I joined the Labour Party, not the New Labour Party." - Tony Benn).
You cannot achieve anything in politics - which remember means making changes to people's lives - without having your hand on the levers of power. Oppositions achieve nothing unless they make themselves electable and then get elected.

I've spent far too long in the past arguing with ex Labour members who were delighted to be in opposition, and therefore never have to justify changes actually made, rather than in power. The kind you slunk off to the SWP in the late 90s so they could keep their politics 'pure' - and guess what - they achieved nothing more than the odd campaigning sticker and poorly attending evening political event. How many people's lives were affected by them - none. Whatever you might say about new Labour - they achieved things. Now sure some you might not like, but don't forget the minimum wage, devolution, massive investment in NHS, education and other public services to reverse decades of under-funding, civil partnerships, maintaining a strong and stable economy (longest period of continuous growth) until the global crisis hit, free nursery places/surestart centres etc, banning fox hunting, banning smoking in public places, restoring free entrance to museums etc etc.

Every one consistent with left wing political ideal and none (with the exception of the economy) likely to have been introduced by a Tory government at the time.

None of this could have happened without being in power. If you want changes to be made which are consistent with left wing Labour ideals, you won't get that by making the Labour party unelectable. You will get the reverse, right wing politics from the Tories.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2016, 01:36:25 PM »
Corbyn is only leader because the Labour Party had no idea what it was for, was scared to vote against welfare cuts (or indeed for them), had a least had a disjunct between members and MPs,and now after Corbyn was elected has members who want to blame their infighting purely on him.
Corbyn is only leader because some idiot MPs 'lent' their support to him allowing him to be on the ballot paper. Fools.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2016, 01:43:33 PM »
Ahh well I think you are talking nonsense as well. There isn't an absolute left /right split but there is a split.

Don't disagree.


Given that the bit you don't disagree with is the reasoning behind the bit you do, I would suggest you are confused. The idea that the left is for free immigration, and the right is against it is simply incorrect for the reasons you have agreed with.

Quote





Agree don't think I wrote anything that would disagree.

Oh come off it, independence is guaranteed if the SNP are seen as toxic by rUK. Dear me NS the SNP are a slick party of politicians and very good at what they do, Sturgeon bangs the drum for fighting for what is best for the Scottish people and knows full well how that comes across elsewhere.

I note that when challenged you couldn't produce anything other than a reassertion of your generalisation. There was lots of coverage during the GE of how Sturgeon's position in the debates appealed to non Scottish voters and polling at the time bore that out. That isn't to say that it wasn't off putting to some but factually your generalisation is not borne out.

There is a vague hint in your post that you think the SNP are so slick that they managed to ensure a Tory govt. Do you actually think that or is that just like Lib Dem Secretary of State happily spreading errors and lying about it?

Gordon

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2016, 01:44:47 PM »
Was speaking to a friend the other day who was a lifelong Labour supporter but has resigned his membership recently.

His main beef isn't Corbyn specifically but the abject failure of Labour, in his view, to make more noise regarding the EU referendum - he reckons than the only reason this is happening is as an attempt to resolve the Tory infighting, which he thinks will worsen no matter what the outcome is.

His is enraged (which seems a good description, for he was certainly angry) that Labour haven't done more to point out and that it isn't the British public that has demanded a EU referendum (that he thinks puts us all at unnecessary risk) and that it is happening only because the Tories think it will help them resolve their internal euro-sceptic faction problem. He reckons the likes of John Smith would have made far more of this as part of the role of a strong opposition.

If the Labour party are losing the likes of this guy then they really are up the creek without a paddle.

Shaker

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2016, 01:45:56 PM »
Whatever you might say about new Labour - they achieved things. Now sure some you might not like
I tried to canvass the opinion of several hundred thousand Iraqis and Afghans on the "New Labour" project but they were unavailable for comment.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2016, 01:46:25 PM »
Corbyn is only leader because some idiot MPs 'lent' their support to him allowing him to be on the ballot paper. Fools.

Only? I would suggest winning the leadership election is also related. Strange that you think it was reasonable for what was a majority of those entitled to vote should be effectively disregarded.



Shaker

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2016, 01:48:05 PM »
Was speaking to a friend the other day who was a lifelong Labour supporter but has resigned his membership recently.

His main beef isn't Corbyn specifically but the abject failure of Labour, in his view, to make more noise regarding the EU referendum - he reckons than the only reason this is happening is as an attempt to resolve the Tory infighting, which he thinks will worsen no matter what the outcome is.

His is enraged (which seems a good description, for he was certainly angry) that Labour haven't done more to point out and that it isn't the British public that has demanded a EU referendum (that he thinks puts us all at unnecessary risk) and that it is happening only because the Tories think it will help them resolve their internal euro-sceptic faction problem. He reckons the likes of John Smith would have made far more of this as part of the role of a strong opposition.

If the Labour party are losing the likes of this guy then they really are up the creek without a paddle.
Not really. My membership - on the day Corbyn was elected, and my first ever membership of a political party (nearly my first ever membership of anything come to that) - and that of tens of thousands of others will make up for it.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 07:17:41 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2016, 01:51:24 PM »
Was speaking to a friend the other day who was a lifelong Labour supporter but has resigned his membership recently.

His main beef isn't Corbyn specifically but the abject failure of Labour, in his view, to make more noise regarding the EU referendum - he reckons than the only reason this is happening is as an attempt to resolve the Tory infighting, which he thinks will worsen no matter what the outcome is.

His is enraged (which seems a good description, for he was certainly angry) that Labour haven't done more to point out and that it isn't the British public that has demanded a EU referendum (that he thinks puts us all at unnecessary risk) and that it is happening only because the Tories think it will help them resolve their internal euro-sceptic faction problem. He reckons the likes of John Smith would have made far more of this as part of the role of a strong opposition.

If the Labour party are losing the likes of this guy then they really are up the creek without a paddle.
Which sounds rather similar to my thoughts - navel gazing and talking inwardly, rather than getting out there and talking to the country about the issues that matter.

And it isn't just on the EU referendum but on so many other matters too - there is no control of the narrative - just the other week when Osborne was seeing many of his economic predictions disappearing in smoke, what was the shadow chancellor talking about in the media studios - Corbyn's endless and botched reshuffle. He should have been putting the boot in on Osborne - instead he was having to defend his own leader.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2016, 01:56:38 PM »
Not really. My membership - on the day Corbyn was elected, and my first ever membership of a political part (nearly my first ever membership of anything come to that) - and that of tens of thousands of others will make up for it.


Don't really agree, if those who were the backbone of members, who did the work and got out the vote then there are real issues about the way forward.

Also it's not clear that having a set of members so out of touch with the MPs is viable. Again as with Prof D, this isn't about who is wrong or right, or indeed about what is more likely to win votes, but a party about to tear itself apart isn't going to win. But it's not doing that because of Corbyn.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2016, 01:58:25 PM »
Which sounds rather similar to my thoughts - navel gazing and talking inwardly, rather than getting out there and talking to the country about the issues that matter.

And it isn't just on the EU referendum but on so many other matters too - there is no control of the narrative - just the other week when Osborne was seeing many of his economic predictions disappearing in smoke, what was the shadow chancellor talking about in the media studios - Corbyn's endless and botched reshuffle. He should have been putting the boot in on Osborne - instead he was having to defend his own leader.

And indulging in Corbyn bashing,  with the lines fed to you by Tories is that navel gazing. Your posts are Moebius strips of Irony.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2016, 01:58:56 PM »
Not really. My membership - on the day Corbyn was elected, and my first ever membership of a political part (nearly my first ever membership of anything come to that) - and that of tens of thousands of others will make up for it.
Not is my experience of the 'new' members is widespread.

Theoretically membership in my constituency has increased by 50% - so you'd expect loads of new, keen people at meetings, out canvassing, delivering leaflet, getting stuck in talking to the electorate, putting themselves forward to stand as candidates for the local elections in May etc etc.

But not a sniff - these new members are invisible - not a single one has turned up a our branch meetings through the Autumn, not a single new person on the delivery rounds etc etc. If this kind of new member is replacing stalwart activist, doers, who actually get out there and put in the leg work to make a difference, then heaven help us.

So as a new member how many doors have you knocked on, phone calls have you made, leaflets have you delivered? In the first few months of my membership, back in 1996 I must have knocked on hundreds of doors, delivered more leaflets than you can throw a stick at, talked to hundreds of local electors etc etc. That's the kind of member you need, and I'm not convinced that the new members are like that - my own experience is that their levels of political activism probably extends little beyond shouting at Question Time from their armchair or perhaps having a 'nice' political debate at a dinner party.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2016, 01:59:57 PM »
And indulging in Corbyn bashing,  with the lines fed to you by Tories is that navel gazing. Your posts are Moebius strips of Irony.
I've never been fed lines by the Tory party thank you very much. I'm perfectly capable of making my own views and my own lines.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2016, 02:02:08 PM »
I've never been fed lines by the Tory party thank you very much. I'm perfectly capable of making my own views and my own lines.

Doing a very good job as if you have the Daily Mail as a prompter.

Gordon

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2016, 02:04:03 PM »
Just to add that this chap was also scathing about Scottish Labour.

Shaker

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #95 on: January 29, 2016, 02:04:12 PM »
Doing a very good job as if you have the Daily Mail as a prompter.
Indeed ::)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #96 on: January 29, 2016, 02:07:43 PM »
Doing a very good job as if you have the Daily Mail as a prompter.
Don't make me laugh.

The kinds of points I've been putting across here are exactly the same as conversations I've been having with a lot of my friends who are life long Labour supporters and members who have been stalwarts of the party for decades. The difference isn't how we see the state of the party - I think our views of Corbyn are pretty well identical - but our response. It is likely that I'll leave the party (me and my wife agreed to give it 6 months from his election, and signs are looking way worse than we might have feared even back in September), I think my various friends are so much 'from the cradle' Labour that they'd never leave the party, but will simply stop doing things.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2016, 02:11:00 PM »
Don't make me laugh.

The kinds of points I've been putting across here are exactly the same as conversations I've been having with a lot of my friends who are life long Labour supporters and members who have been stalwarts of the party for decades. The difference isn't how we see the state of the party - I think our views of Corbyn are pretty well identical - but our response. It is likely that I'll leave the party (me and my wife agreed to give it 6 months from his election, and signs are looking way worse than we might have feared even back in September), I think my various friends are so much 'from the cradle' Labour that they'd never leave the party, but will simply stop doing things.

Not surprised, sounds like the same group think that Corbyn supporters roll out frequently. You and your friends are spending all your time talking about your little internecine dispute not about opposition.

Gonnagle

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2016, 02:24:53 PM »
Dear Gordon,

Quote
Just to add that this chap was also scathing about Scottish Labour.

That's my dilemma, who the hell do I vote for in the up and coming elections, if only Scottish Labour could get behind this Corbyn guy, can the Sturgeon train be halted, last thing I remember that Keza Dugdal wummin saying, she would help more people onto the property ladder.

What was it Shaker said,

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Who is truer to the political ideals and principles that the Labour Party* was founded upon, Corbyn or the rabble of Tory-lite malcontents against him who don't even belong in the party in the first place? There's no "tearing apart," only the disaffection of clueless Thatcherites terminally confused about which party they should be in.

Tory lite malcontents :)

Gonnagle.
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

Nearly Sane

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Re: Are Labour Dead In The Water?
« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2016, 02:44:56 PM »
Dear Gordon,

That's my dilemma, who the hell do I vote for in the up and coming elections, if only Scottish Labour could get behind this Corbyn guy, can the Sturgeon train be halted, last thing I remember that Keza Dugdal wummin saying, she would help more people onto the property ladder.

What was it Shaker said,

Tory lite malcontents :)

Gonnagle.

Depends which of the votes and where the polls are, at least for me, being a tactical voter. Not sure what your constituency is but currently I think that l's going to be SNP in all likelihood, so that might not make a lot of difference. List vote i'd lean to Green as I think it might be the best way to get constructive opposition.

Scottish Labour has different problems than UK Lab. See Jackie Baillie's ludicrous comments to the Daily Mail about Philippa Whitford