Are Labour Dead In The Water?

[Jack Knave]

Because you also end up with a right wing party in Westminster which still greatly affects what happens north of the border.

I'm not sure if the Scots view Labour any better than the Tories these days(?). Better to vote with your heart and fight to be free.

[Nearly Sane]

But Scotland was lost to the Tories from 92 onwards, didn't stop them winning in 2015 did it.

Don't forget that Labour didn't need Scotland to win in 97, 2001 or 2005.

So for all those, you want to accept the actual numbers but for 2015, you want to claim that somehow it was the the SNP wot lost it for Labour, despite the facts of the numbers. Mmmm

[Jack Knave]

But Scotland was lost to the Tories from 92 onwards, didn't stop them winning in 2015 did it.

Don't forget that Labour didn't need Scotland to win in 97, 2001 or 2005.

They won because they were Tories with a different name and The Tories were in a mess. So the choice is Tories or Tories, in some form or other.

[L.A.]

Where indeed will that leader come from.

Well history suggests that leaders who have won general elections from opposition aren't obviously apparent prior to their becoming leader of the opposition. So of the most recent examples, being Cameron, Blair and Thatcher - none had a massively high profile before winning leadership of the opposition. So there is probably someone on those opposition back benches (that's where I think they'll be because they will need to be a non-Corbynite). I've always liked Chuka and sad he pulled out last summer, but biding his time might look to be a smart strategy in the long run. Then there is Dan Jarvis, regularly talked about as a potential leader and Lisa Nandy (if you think that a credible leader needs to come from the left of the party - I don't by the way).

I've always thought Chuka saw the way the wind was blowing and decided to 'keep his powder dry' for another day after the 'loonie-left' surge burn itself out.

(P.S. I have a tenner on hims as next leader  )

[Nearly Sane]

I've always thought Chuka saw the way the wind was blowing and decided to 'keep his powder dry' for another day after the 'loonie-left' surge burn itself out.

(P.S. I have a tenner on hims as next leader  )

Given when he withdrew, which was before Corbyn had announced, never mind had gained the MP votes and not even close to when there was an apparent surge, I would be very impressed had he predicted that.

[L.A.]

Given when he withdrew, which was before Corbyn had announced, never mind had gained the MP votes and not even close to when there was an apparent surge, I would be very impressed had he predicted that.

Even before Corbyn entered the arena, it was obvious that the party was looking Left. No moderate politician ever stood a chance.

[Nearly Sane]

Even before Corbyn entered the arena, it was obvious that the party was looking Left. No moderate politician ever stood a chance.

It really wasn't. Corbyn at that stage had no chance of standing, was around 100/1, and the whole 3 pound thing wasn't factored in. There was no obvious reason in the 'leftiness' of the party at that stage for him to withdraw, all of 3 days after he had declared.

[L.A.]

It really wasn't. Corbyn at that stage had no chance of standing, was around 100/1, and the whole 3 pound thing wasn't factored in. There was no obvious reason in the 'leftiness' of the party at that stage for him to withdraw, all of 3 days after he had declared.

Well, the Lefties won the day - so whether good luck or good judgement he did well to avoid that shambles and sooner or later pragmatism will cut-in and Labour will decide to choose a credible leader.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, the Lefties won the day - so whether good luck or good judgement he did well to avoid that shambles and sooner or later pragmatism will cut-in and Labour will decide to choose a credible leader.

Unless the Tories decide on full out internecine strife after the EU Referendum, the next chance for a Labour govt is 2025. I doubt he will still be interested.

[L.A.]

Unless the Tories decide on full out internecine strife after the EU Referendum, the next chance for a Labour govt is 2025. I doubt he will still be interested.

I think it is possible that Corbynism could implode much sooner allowing time for a new leader to bed-in before 2020.

[Nearly Sane]

I think it is possible that Corbynism could implode much sooner allowing time for a new leader to bed-in before 2020.

But with the redefinition of the boundaries that leader has no chance of winning unless as already covered the Tories rip themselves apart.

[L.A.]

But with the redefinition of the boundaries that leader has no chance of winning unless as already covered the Tories rip themselves apart.

I would have thought that there might be a window of opportunity for Labour if the EU referendum went badly* for Cameron, but only if they have got themselves a credible leader.

*Badly' being a very narrow margin resulting in acrimony within the party.

[Nearly Sane]

I would have thought that there might be a window of opportunity for Labour if the EU referendum went badly* for Cameron, but only if they have got themselves a credible leader.

*Badly' being a very narrow margin resulting in acrimony within the party.

Which is why I have twice mentioned it as a possibility, but it needs that. Even then with the combination of boundary changes, and that a close margin is not without its costs for Labour, it seems unlikley. If they are to have someone in place by the referendum, I cannot see that happening without a form of tearing themselves apart as well.

[ProfessorDavey]

So for all those, you want to accept the actual numbers but for 2015, you want to claim that somehow it was the the SNP wot lost it for Labour, despite the facts of the numbers. Mmmm

I don't remember the possibility of a Scotland only party holding the balance of power being an issue that might have swung voters in 1997 or 2001 or 2005, so it wasn't relevant. It didn't swing any votes, it didn't change the result in any seats.

It was an issue in 2015 and therefore is relevant.

[Bubbles]

After their so called hard-look-at-themselves to why they flopped in the GE report, and that some Labour MPs are calling it a white wash are they now dead due to their blindness?

If they don't face the facts and reality of the politics concerning the voters then they are left with two options both of which don't look at the real situation for the voter. They either have the old New Labour approach which looks inwardly at the party machine, and is full of spin and lies, or they have the Lefties led by Corbyn, who although raises some issues that the voters feel are affecting them the Left's idea of how to deal with them are set in the past and/or are heavily coloured by their ideology and not reality.

I see a similar problem looming up for the Tories, as their grass roots are far from happy with the pro EU and party machine focus that the people at the top champion.

Any thoughts on the matter people?

To stand a chance labour need another leader.

Their present one is a bit too left wing.

I think he is more 70's than 80's

 

[ProfessorDavey]

To stand a chance labour need another leader.

Their present one is a bit too left wing.

I think he is more 70's than 80's

 

It isn't just that he is too left wing to appeal to a broad enough proportion of the electorate to win an election. He is also useless as a leader - just look at how many things he has botched during his few months in charge.

[L.A.]

But the great thing about Jeremy is that he unites Left and Right. The Far Left adore him while the Right think he is the best thing to happen to the Conservative party since Michael Foot 

[jakswan]

It isn't just that he is too left wing to appeal to a broad enough proportion of the electorate to win an election. He is also useless as a leader - just look at how many things he has botched during his few months in charge.

I watched PMQs yesterday and he had some great material to take Cameron apart but failed to land any blows. I would think Benn would have at least caused more damage. Its sad the Tories have a tiny majority the opposition should be able to hold them to account much better than they are.

[Nearly Sane]

I watched PMQs yesterday and he had some great material to take Cameron apart but failed to land any blows. I would think Benn would have at least caused more damage. Its sad the Tories have a tiny majority the opposition should be able to hold them to account much better than they are.

Though Benn would have found it gar harder to make much of Google for example because Cameron's reply would have been much more apposite to him than Corbyn. That we think of doing damage as holding to account is part of the problem.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jakswan,

Thank you, just watched yesterdays PMQ, all I saw from Cameron was more Tory smoke and mirrors, Mr Corbyn made the telling point, what is this Government doing concerning tax, I don't want to know about past Government failures, Mr Cameron also used two words, fair and fairness, I think someone should buy the man a dictionary, he has not got a clue about fairness.

I also noted the style of Cameron and Corbyn, one totally calm, the other raised voice and pandering to the crowd.

Gonnagle.

[Hope]

Dear Jakswan,

Thank you, just watched yesterdays PMQ, all I saw from Cameron was more Tory smoke and mirrors, Mr Corbyn made the telling point, what is this Government doing concerning tax, I don't want to know about past Government failures, Mr Cameron also used two words, fair and fairness, I think someone should buy the man a dictionary, he has not got a clue about fairness.

I also noted the style of Cameron and Corbyn, one totally calm, the other raised voice and pandering to the crowd.

Gonnagle.

Gonners, you say that you "don't want to know about past Government failures", but how long has the particular tax legislation that governs this particular area of the corporate world been in existence?  I believe that we are reaping the whirlwind from bad decisions by past Governments - possibly going back as far as Wilson and Thatcher.

Regarding the two styles, I've seen Corbyn with raised voice and pandering to the Labour benches and Cameron all silky smooth and calm in the past.  It all has to do with their particular agendas for that day.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

They had no chance of winning in 2020 as the boundaries will change. They could have had any leader. They would lose. There us only one chance for the Tories not to win in 2020 and that is a fight in the Tories over the EU referendum. Given that the Liberals are screwed for the foreseeable future, UKIP can manage to have a split with1 MP, the Liberals are screwed and if they get 15 seat as will be a ecstatic, that's it.

 I would think that the Lib Dems will scrape together twenty or so MPs next time. As I see it Labour lost in Scotland, whilst I would like to blame it on Harpy & co insisting that Labour ran the same team in 2015 who lost in 2010 I don't really think that is the reason.

[Hope]

Its sad the Tories have a tiny majority the opposition should be able to hold them to account much better than they are.

I'd have thought that that would be a point of thankfulness.  The problem is that Labour, in itself, isn't sufficiently large enough alone to hold the Tories to account in the way we'd like them to, and with they and the SNP being somewhat disagreeable to each other, the opposition is somewhat fragmented.

[Nearly Sane]

I'd have thought that that would be a point of thankfulness.  The problem is that Lasbour, in itself, isn't sufficiently large enough alone to hold the Tories to account in the way we'd like them to, and with they and the SNP being somewhat disagreeable to each other, the opposition is somewhat fragmented.

Not convinced that makes that much difference - in order to make much of the smallish majority. you need to be able to have rebels from the Tories. At the start of the parliament, Labour were in disarray and were abstaining at times on motions where the govt could have been pressed close, Since Corbyn became leader that has reduced and there has been some success in the opposition, notably on tax credits, but that came about because thee were likely to be enough rebels on the Tory side.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Hope,

Gonners, you say that you "don't want to know about past Government failures", but how long has the particular tax legislation that governs this particular area of the corporate world been in existence?  I believe that we are reaping the whirlwind from bad decisions by past Governments - possibly going back as far as Wilson and Thatcher.

Couldn't agree more, but the question was asked and was not answered, 3% tax for google, is that fair, he did not answer the question, instead he attacked past Government and that he trusts the H.M.R.C and some mob who audit H.M.R.C.

Corbyn also mentioned Geoff, Geoff wants to know if he can pay 3% tax, Geoff is me and you, I am also thinking of doing all my shopping at Tesco and asking if it is alright if I pay them in a couple of years time, Mr Cameron has a long way to go before he understands the word, Fairness.

Gonnagle.