Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?

[Hope]

Are there still such fanatical parents in the UK? I have no idea because I haven't been back for many years, but the general impression I get from the press and tv programmes is that it's a thing of the past there.

Please don't tell me I'm wrong.   

Len, there are many fanatical adults, let alone parents in the UK, still.  Some are politically fanatical, some are religiously fanatical, and still others are fanatical in other ways.  In a way, I'd be worried for society if this kind of fanaticism didn't exist, since it is as a result of such fanaticism that society chnges and develops.

[Leonard James]

So, Len, are you suggesting that everyone who takes a different view from you on the issue of sexuality is necessarily religiously fanatical, or even simply religious?  If so, I think you have a very warped view of humanity, as there are many non-religious people, even some atheists, who view sexuality differently to you.

Don't prevaricate! We are discussing the extremely inhumane behaviour of Owlswng's parents, not sexuality in general.

[Leonard James]

Len, there are many fanatical adults, let alone parents in the UK, still.  Some are politically fanatical, some are religiously fanatical, and still others are fanatical in other ways.  In a way, I'd be worried for society if this kind of fanaticism didn't exist, since it is as a result of such fanaticism that society chnges and develops.

See my previous post.

[Hope]

As stated elsewhere on this forum - ex = something that has been - xpert (pronounced spurt) = a drip under pressure.

Hi Owl, I hadn't realised that expert was spelled with 2 x's.   

So all of you who decide to read this confession. offered freely and without duress, may now understand my aversion to, one, the Christian Church and its adherents and, two, to those who express such unpleasant attitudes to trans and gay people as those mentioned above, among others. ...

Now challenge my knowledge of gay and transgender issues and my knowledge of just what right bastards Christians can be when they go into pulpit mode.

Do your worst, you cannot hope to match my father!

Owl, I am truly saddened to hear your story, and disgusted that a father - regardess of their religious point of view - should have behaved like you say he did.  I would however, point to the fact that there are probably just as many High Anglican parents who would have taken the opposite view and supported you in your thinking.  The same range of attitude goes for evangelical Anglicans, non-conformists of both extremes , Roman Catholics, atheists, antitheists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. - I know because I've met them. 

As such, whilst you (and Floo, when one things about it) judge the church by your parent's behaviour, there are many who regard the church as a very dynamic and supportive organisation because of their experiences of parenting and even parenthood. 

And therein lies the rub: we judge society and social organisations by the way in which we have experienced the attitudes said groupings hold.  Few, if any, of us can claim to be looking at such groupings in an objective manner.

As I've said several times before, for most of my life I've been involved in campaigns to disestablish the Church of England, to encourage women's ordination, to push for transparency regarding sexual and other abuse within the church, to get Government to combat the widening gap between the rich and poor, to rethink our involvement in certain conflicts, to question the validity of nuclear power and defence, combating human trafficking and homelessness, etc., etc.  All this is as a result of my Christian faith, and my belief that no human being is of less value than any other. 

I can't remember who it was who recently suggested - either on this thread or another - that religion and politics ought to be kept well away from each other.  However, taking that to its logical conclusion indicates that politicians and politics - nay, human beings and politics - ought to be kept well away from each other, simply because politics/religion/politicians/human beings are all about how we live our everyday lives.

Regarding your challenge, I think that we constantly need to be challenging soiciety and its mores.  We also need to be asking why do young people feel uncomfortable in the gender/sexuality they are born in - is this something that bhas occurred at the same level down the centuries?, is this something that is becoming more prevalent? (and does it - as has been suggested in previous years - have something to do with the increasing levels of chemicals that we feed our children); is it, perhaps, getting increasingly rare?  I think that a passive acceptance of such developments, which is what I tend to see around me, is probably bad for society as a whole as it shows that we aren't paying attention to modernity.

[Bubbles]

Why would parents treat the sexuality of their children so badly other than from religious fanaticism?

Fear of failure, children being seen as different, guilt .... Lots of reasons.

[Leonard James]

Fear of failure, children being seen as different, guilt .... Lots of reasons.

I accept that such reasons could occur, but I am sure nowhere near as often as religious ones.

[Owlswing]

Don't prevaricate! We are discussing the extremely inhumane behaviour of Owlswng's parents, not sexuality in general.

Sorry Len, but please do not equate my mother's attitudes with my father's.

I sincerely apologise to both her and you if I gave that impression.

My mother was a Jewess, hence my being also Jewish, by birth if not by upbringing, and had that fierce sense of matriachal (sic) duty that goes with the title of Jewish Mother!

She was as supportive of me as she could possibly be, to the point of standing between my father and me to stop a beating.  more than once as I recall, and without her I would have suffered more bruid=ses and broken bones than I actually did.

She did what she could and always regretted that she could not do more.

[floo]

So, Len, are you suggesting that everyone who takes a different view from you on the issue of sexuality is necessarily religiously fanatical, or even simply religious?  If so, I think you have a very warped view of humanity, as there are many non-religious people, even some atheists, who view sexuality differently to you.

People who believe homosexuality to be wrong have a warped view, imo.

[Leonard James]

Sorry Len, but please do not equate my mother's attitudes with my father's.

I sincerely apologise to both her and you if I gave that impression.

My mother was a Jewess, hence my being also Jewish, by birth if not by upbringing, and had that fierce sense of matriachal (sic) duty that goes with the title of Jewish Mother!

She was as supportive of me as she could possibly be, to the point of standing between my father and me to stop a beating.  more than once as I recall, and without her I would have suffered more bruid=ses and broken bones than I actually did.

She did what she could and always regretted that she could not do more.

My sincere apologies. Owl, I had forgotten that it was only your father who was guilty of such appalling conduct. 

[Owlswing]

Hi Owl, I hadn't realised that expert was spelled with 2 x's.   

. . . and I was taught that the word was "spelt" not "spelled". The latter being another rather Godawful Americanism.

Owl, I am truly saddened to hear your story, and disgusted that a father - regardess of their religious point of view - should have behaved like you say he did.

". . . like (I) say he did? This sounds as if you doubt the veracity of my statement? If so, may I ask why you should do so?

I would however, point to the fact that there are probably just as many High Anglican parents who would have taken the opposite view and supported you in your thinking.  The same range of attitude goes for evangelical Anglicans, non-conformists of both extremes , Roman Catholics, atheists, antitheists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. - I know because I've met them.[/b}

Why does this not surprise me?

As such, whilst you (and Floo, when one things about it) judge the church by your parent's behaviour, there are many who regard the church as a very dynamic and supportive organisation because of their experiences of parenting and even parenthood. 

And therein lies the rub: we judge society and social organisations by the way in which we have experienced the attitudes said groupings hold.  Few, if any, of us can claim to be looking at such groupings in an objective manner.

I am sorry, but what else do you expect. My treatment was meted out on the basis that my father stated that it was God's will that the devil of homosexuality should be beaten out of me as it was against all His laws!

The treatment of my daughter, who went to the church she attended weekly (her mother is a born-again and, for the sake of peace and quiet and against my, then, agosticism I did not protest or try to stop the practice) and, when we divorced my daughter went to the Church to ask the priest, female, for spiritual help, she was nine at the time, and was told that she "should not consider that she was the only child in the world with problems of such a nature and should go home and grow up".

Do you really expect me to look at the Christian church in "an objective manner"? 

As I've said several times before, for most of my life I've been involved in campaigns to disestablish the Church of England, to encourage women's ordination, to push for transparency regarding sexual and other abuse within the church, to get Government to combat the widening gap between the rich and poor, to rethink our involvement in certain conflicts, to question the validity of nuclear power and defence, combating human trafficking and homelessness, etc., etc.  All this is as a result of my Christian faith, and my belief that no human being is of less value than any other.

Even were I to still be Christian I would find it very very hard to make this statement about my father!

Regarding your challenge, I think that we constantly need to be challenging soiciety and its mores.  We also need to be asking why do young people feel uncomfortable in the gender/sexuality they are born in - is this something that bhas occurred at the same level down the centuries?, is this something that is becoming more prevalent? (and does it - as has been suggested in previous years - have something to do with the increasing levels of chemicals that we feed our children); is it, perhaps, getting increasingly rare?  I think that a passive acceptance of such developments, which is what I tend to see around me, is probably bad for society as a whole as it shows that we aren't paying attention to modernity.

My challenge had nothing to do with changing "society and its mores".

It read, and I quote,

Now challenge my knowledge of gay and transgender issues and my knowledge of just what right bastards Christians can be when they go into pulpit mode.

For all your extensive activities none, so far as you have posted, have anything to do with gay and trans people and, even had they done so, they would only be second-hand experiences.

I consider that the Christian Church still promotes the attitude that if a person is not 100% heterosexual they are unacceptable in the eyes of the church and its God.   

[Owlswing]

My sincere apologies. Owl, I had forgotten that it was only your father who was guilty of such appalling conduct. 

Negative perspiration!

[Aruntraveller]

We also need to be asking why do young people feel uncomfortable in the gender/sexuality they are born in

Possibly because some people suggest that these things have a negative impact on society.

Whereas I would suggest that those kinds of statements have a negative impact on society.

I have talked about this with psychologists, psychotherapists, co-counsellors, psychiatrists, social workers, etc. They all agree with me.

(I just thought I'd get the unsupported hearsay in first before anyone else did)

[Sebastian Toe]

(I just thought I'd get the unsupported hearsay in first before anyone else did)

An excellent debating procedure in this case, I may well adopt that myself more often! 

[Leonard James]

Fear of failure, children being seen as different, guilt .... Lots of reasons.

Here's another one!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/04/02/father-charged-with-shooting-and-killing-son-because-he-was-gay/

[Bubbles]

Here's another one!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/04/02/father-charged-with-shooting-and-killing-son-because-he-was-gay/

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/04/02/father-charged-with-shooting-and-killing-son-because-he-was-gay/

The father appears to be claiming  he shot his son after he threatened him with a knife and his wife was already dead, having been murdered.

They are still trying to figure out who killed the woman.

Not sure what the evidence is he shot him because he was gay.  In fact it could be a row about evicting him and his drug problem, hard to say.

 


In this news report ,that drugs were involved.  I wonder if people have just picked up the " gay" angle because it sells papers.

I say that because there seems to be a lot going on here other than that, drugs, eviction etc

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-father-accused-of-fatally-shooting-son-because-he-was-gay-20160401-story.html

[Bubbles]

Sometimes parents do some awful things, nothing to do with religion

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dad-killed-four-year-old-daughter-after-5598046

It seems to me, if a victim is gay everyone jumps on that, but tragic things happen all the time , because a small percentage of parents can't cope, one way or another.

In this one the father appears to use his daughter to get benefits and a better accommodation.

Love seems to have not existed.


However even among caring parents, parents can struggle to come to terms with the sexuality of an offspring, they might not murder but can disapprove without it involving religion. Purely because it is different to what they had expected.
Sometimes parents aspire for their children to achieve..... Sometimes being gay isn't part of that aspiring.

There is a song,

We're only making plans for Nigel
We only want what's best for him
We're only making plans for Nigel
Nigel just needs that helping hand
And if young Nigel says he's happy
He must be happy
He must be happy
He must be happy in his work
We're only making plans for Nigel
He has his future in a British steel
We're only making plans for Nigel
Nigel's whole future is as good as sealed
And if young Nigel says he's happy
He must be happy
He must be happy
He must be happy in his work
Nigel is not outspoken
But he likes to speak
And loves to be spoken to
Nigel is happy in his work
Nigel is happy in his work
We're only making plans for Nigel
We only want what's best for him
We're only making plans for Nigel
Nigel just needs this helping hand
And if young Nigel says he's happy
He must be happy
He must be happy
He must be happy in his work
We're only making plans for Nigel
We only want what's best for him
We're only making plans for Nigel
Nigel just needs this helping hand
We're only making plans for Nigel
He has his future in a British steel
We're only making plans for Nigel


Sometimes "Nigel " is gay, and sometimes parents don't face it well.

It has nothing to do with religion, but what parents envisage for their children.

I think parents need support too.

I think sometimes they need space to deal with it, not all parents are nasty about it, but it is different to what they are expecting.

Some parents, come round to it in their own time.

They also have to face people's snide comments about their offspring, which makes them feel like they have failed.

It's complicated.

Too complicated to be just a prejudice caused by religion.

[Bubbles]

This goes through some of the things I mean

< Popular topics - menu

Advice for parents and friends

I've had a lot of letters over the years from the friends and family of gay loved ones, asking how they can best help and support them. Perhaps a parent who's not sure how to deal with their child's recent coming out, or perhaps someone who's worried about a gay friend who's having problems adjusting to their sexuality.

Here are some tips to help you to help them:

Don't do anything!
Try not to see a gay person as having a disability and needing special treatment. A lot of gay people are perfectly happy and comfortable with themselves and simply want you to carry on as normal and without fuss. I know a lot of parents and friends worry that they're not doing enough, but often the gay person in question needs you to simply do nothing. There’s even a danger you can make things harder for your loved one by making them feel like a special case and marked out as some kind of problem to deal with. Being gay is not a problem in itself but people can turn it into one, even if their intentions are good.
"My gay friend/son/daughter..."
Remember, your friend is not defined by their sexuality any more than you are. He's not your gay friend - he's your friend. Sometimes sexuality is the key characteristic people tend to focus on, like a sticker they put on somebody, but it's only part of what makes a person who they are. Don't fall into the trap of categorising your gay loved one in this way. A gay person wants to be treated equally and valued as an individual. They don't want to be treated as a novelty, accessory or party trick.
Special skills
You don't need special skills to be a good friend or parent to a gay person. Valuable skills like the ability to listen, providing a hug when someone is hurting, or being able to offer good advice, are as important whether a loved one is gay or straight. If someone straight who you cared about was having problems you’d do your best to help them with the skills, resources and knowledge that you possess. It’s no different here.
Understanding
It might be the case that you've never met a gay person before and have questions about homosexuality. Perhaps the only reference you have is flamboyant characters on TV. Educate yourself a bit by reading the content on this website, but don't make the mistake of thinking that gay people are a weird subspecies with bizarre needs. They need and want the same things you do in order to be happy: love, sex, friendship, financial stability, a safe home etc.
Don’t be too helpful
When I came out, my friends were very keen to set me up on a date with the only other gay person they knew. I got the feeling they assumed we’d fall madly in love simply because we were two gay people with a lack of other gay people on our Christmas card lists. We didn’t get on particularly well, were very different from each other, and chose not to meet up again. I’d have had much more fun being introduced to someone – gay or straight - on the grounds that we had shared interests.
Assumptions
Don’t assume anything about someone because of their sexuality. They’re still an individual with their own interests and unique personality. The clichés of the gay man leaping out of the closet, donning hair glitter and dragging his straight friends off to the nearest gay club isn't helpful. It may be the last thing he wants to do. Let your friend set the pace. He or she knows whether they’re ready to explore their sexuality and in what ways.
Problems
If your loved one is having problems coming to terms with their sexuality you can help greatly by showing them that you don’t think being gay is a negative thing and that your feelings toward them haven't changed. Feeling better about being gay involves breaking down the negative associations a person might have with the label, and the things they think they're missing out on by not being straight. This part of the frequently asked questions will help. Encourage them to visit the website.
Adjusting your expectations after they come out
Traditionally we tend to equate having a happy, healthy and fulfilling life with being in a heterosexual relationship, getting married and having children. You might have had hopes of arranging a heterosexual wedding for your child some day. Maybe you were looking forward to having grandchildren. There’s nothing wrong with being excited about those things. Like any good parent, you want your child to be happy and to find love. When a child comes out it’s a time of adjustment. Suddenly confronted with the reality of your child being in a same-sex relationship can be a real shock. It’s vital to understand that although things are different from how you had imagined, the one central hope you had for your child can still be realised: their happiness.

Things are different, but they’re no worse. Your child can find the same love and fulfilment through a same-sex relationship as they might have had in a heterosexual one, and there’s no reason why you can’t be an important part of that. Of course your son or daughter will likely not have any children of their own. But don't forget that they may have chosen not to have kids if they’d be heterosexual. It’s wrong to force our hopes onto our children. They have to discover what happiness and fulfilment mean to them, with your support and acceptance. It’s a time of adjusting the ideas you might have held for your child's future, but it can also be a time of embracing a more open and honest relationship with them.

Your child's homosexuality is not a rejection of your values or lifestyle.
Traditionally we think of a man and woman raising children but healthy and happy families come in many different flavours in our modern world: single parent families, same-sex parents, foster families and adoptions, children raised by their grandparents, shared custody arrangements etc. A loving, positive, supportive and safe home environment is what counts, not who provides it. Appraise the family that your child has created by looking at the values it's founded on, not the gender mix of the household.
Your child didn’t choose to be gay. Help them to make the most of who they are.
Much as you might have cherished ideas about weddings and grandchildren, you mustn’t try to force these things onto your child. You didn't become a parent because you wanted grandchildren thirty years later. Your child isn’t gay because he or she wants to sabotage your dreams.
Don't assume that because your child is young that they don't know themselves or their sexuality. While many people have same-sex experiences but go on to form heterosexual relationships, many also report knowing from a very young age that they were gay (I knew when I was 13). Try to take their coming out seriously. You likely wouldn't challenge a child who was expressing heterosexual preferences, no matter how young.
You don’t want your son or daughter sneaking around and not telling you about their lives, but they will do if you make life tough for them over this. Talk to them and encourage openness.
Be kind to yourself. It can be a big surprise to discover that your child is gay. It’s okay to hurt, to worry and to feel helpless. This is a time of change for you too.
Indulging stereotypes about gay people will make you feel worse so throw them out the window. Your child can be happy as a gay person, and you can help. See Myths and stereotypes where common misconceptions about homosexual people are discussed.
Remember that your child has not changed. There's no secret society they've just joined or big gay uniform they're going to wear. They are the same child you’ve raised and loved. The only difference is that they’ve been more honest with you than they’ve probably ever been, and told you something deeply personal, potentially at great risk to themselves. Your child may be scared of losing your love and support.
You haven't failed as a parent because your child is gay, nor did you make your child gay somehow. Nothing you did or didn’t do during the life of your child has made them gay, just like nothing a parent does makes their child heterosexual. There was no switch you flicked on by mistake in your child’s mind. So whether you’re a single parent, dual parents or part of a large and close extended family - it’s not your fault. I discuss 'nature or nurture' in relation to what causes homosexuality here.

http://www.bgiok.org.uk/being_gay/parents.html

It isn't always religious,sometimes parents find it hard.

That's not to say gay people don't find it harder.

But there are issues wider than religion that parents need time to process.

Initially it may come across as disapproval, and some parents might never accept it.

I do think such things should be discussed though, rather than condemned.

 

[Owlswing]

This goes through some of the things I mean

It isn't always religious,sometimes parents find it hard.

That's not to say gay people don't find it harder.

But there are issues wider than religion that parents need time to process.

Initially it may come across as disapproval, and some parents might never accept it.

I do think such things should be discussed though, rather than condemned.

 

Rose

Can you see any of the anti-gay lot on here taking any notice whatsoever of your last sentence?

I cannot, not even should I live long enough to see the advent of the apocalypse.

[Leonard James]

Initially it may come across as disapproval, and some parents might never accept it.

I do think such things should be discussed though, rather than condemned.

 

It should be condemned because it is wrong, and attempts made to reeducate parents.

[Bubbles]

Rose

Can you see any of the anti-gay lot on here taking any notice whatsoever of your last sentence?

I cannot, not even should I live long enough to see the advent of the apocalypse.

No but it's a bit of a vicious circle, blaming religious people, religious people reacting back.

It might help to try and improve what we can improve, parents still have to deal with the issues it raises.

Religious people have the same issues as in the article, but the difference is they can throw in the bible instead of discussing it.

I think if parents won't come round, it's a shame.

However they could be equally distraught at their offspring not following their religion.

Parents sometimes need support to cope with the idea that their children are their own people.

Sometimes they won't listen. It's sad, but you can only try what you can.

[Owlswing]

Sometimes they won't listen. It's sad, but you can only try what you can.

Sounds like trying to talk sense to some of the Christians on this forum!

[Bubbles]

It should be condemned because it is wrong, and attempts made to reeducate parents.

If you try and be too forceful the downside is people become too entrenched.

I think understanding is more beneficial.

Sometimes anger can be because parents feel they have failed in some way.

Hopefully with enough support and a change in societies attitudes this might begin to go away.

But it isn't all religiously based.

Some issues are parent expectations.

[Leonard James]

No but it's a bit of a vicious circle, blaming religious people, religious people reacting back.

But the fact is that the main religions are guilty parties in actually teaching that it is wrong..

[Leonard James]

If you try and be too forceful the downside is people become too entrenched.

I think understanding is more beneficial.

Sometimes anger can be because parents feel they have failed in some way.

Hopefully with enough support and a change in societies attitudes this might begin to go away.

But it isn't all religiously based.

Some issues are parent expectations.

Parents should learn not to dictate to their children after they become adults ... and allow them to think for themselves.

[Owlswing]

But it isn't all religiously based.

Some issues are parent expectations.

And where exactly do thgose expectations come from? At the very least in part?