Author Topic: New Party leaders  (Read 24610 times)

Udayana

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #225 on: July 12, 2016, 03:59:50 PM »
Just to note I don't think there should be a GE because of the new PM - but I think that political parties on both sides should stop with the meretricious 'do as we say not as we do'. There is a case to be made both for holding a GE soon, and a case agaisnt it - but none of either case gets much, if any, support from there being a new PM

Sure. As there are no fixed rules on this, each side will always make a case for or against, but it is mostly rhetoric as no PM with a sufficient majority to continue will call a GE unless it's obviously to their benefit or have reached the end of their term

And again how is that clear as what happens over the next three years, given that it is only one thing and no actions on it are based on a manifesto, as opposed to following a manifesto?

I see what you're saying - the rest of the 2015 manifesto in invalidated by the Brexit vote. This can't be resolved without clarification on Brexit. I guess they will have to muddle along until then.

Does anyone else have a plan?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ProfessorDavey

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #226 on: July 12, 2016, 04:05:28 PM »
The direction is to "leave" - we have to negotiate a Brexit deal. Possibly a choice on options, if any, will need to be put to a public vote through a GE or further referendum later (eg. if the government fails to carry their preferred option).
The EU isn't going to provide a menu of options that can be offered to the British people on brexit - the government will only be able to negotiate one deal, which is unlikely to be ideal (as it will likely need to trade off access to the free market against restrictions on free movement, we won't be able to have both) from the perspective of most people.

So once a deal is agreed then it can be put to the british people on a take it or leave it basis against remaining in the EU - then we would have a clear mandate for our future relationship, which we don't have currently - it may be that were the exit deal to be WTO (no access to the single market) but with ability to restrict migration that a majority of people would prefer to be in the EU rather than that rather extreme brexit option.

I suspect the most likely outcome (and most consistent with the narrow referendum result) would be to formally leave the EU (thereby respecting the vote to leave) but to make the changes as limited as possible, therefore recognising that there was no overwhelming mandate for radical change. And, of course, that outcome would be EEA with access to the single market with perhaps some limited restrictions on migration - probably requiring a job offer to come to the UK.

Nearly Sane

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #227 on: July 12, 2016, 04:06:42 PM »
Sure. As there are no fixed rules on this, each side will always make a case for or against, but it is mostly rhetoric as no PM with a sufficient majority to continue will call a GE unless it's obviously to their benefit or have reached the end of their term

I see what you're saying - the rest of the 2015 manifesto in invalidated by the Brexit vote. This can't be resolved without clarification on Brexit. I guess they will have to muddle along until then.

Does anyone else have a plan?
We give politicians way to much slack on this, and I speak as someone who will defend the species more than most, it isn't rhetoric, it's hypocrisy.


Nearly Sane

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #228 on: July 12, 2016, 04:10:26 PM »

Corbynistas continue to besmirch Angela

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-36771205

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #229 on: July 12, 2016, 04:32:38 PM »
Corbyn and other Labour MPs have had death threats. Angela Eagle had a brick thrown through her office window! I hope they catch the evil perpetrators and send them down for a good long time!

Udayana

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #230 on: July 14, 2016, 12:13:10 PM »
If you set up the Make JeremyP Dictator for Life Party you are entirely free to determine how that party's leader shall be appointed.

Political parties are independent and totally free organisations. They are at liberty to determine their own rules and their own constitutions. The state plays no part in that.

All parties enter the parliamentary electoral marketplace free to behave how they wish providing they do so legally. The electorate knows this.

Were you so concerned when Margaret Thatcher was forced out and replaced with John Major?

It might be worth revisiting this given the current Labour leadership farce? Both major parties seem to have convoluted rules and elections to determine their respective party leaders. However, as Jeremy suggested, each has ended up with a system that is arguably less democratic than having a leader selected by MP votes.

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L.A.

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #231 on: July 15, 2016, 06:07:46 AM »
It might be worth revisiting this given the current Labour leadership farce? Both major parties seem to have convoluted rules and elections to determine their respective party leaders. However, as Jeremy suggested, each has ended up with a system that is arguably less democratic than having a leader selected by MP votes.
Labour excelled themselves with their wonderful system were anyone with three quid to spair can have a go. I always think it is very touching of Jeremy to doggedly hang on in a show on 'loyalty' to all those Tories who put him there, but really, it's past a joke now.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 06:12:47 AM by L.A. »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #232 on: July 15, 2016, 07:50:53 AM »
Labour excelled themselves with their wonderful system were anyone with three quid to spair can have a go. I always think it is very touching of Jeremy to doggedly hang on in a show on 'loyalty' to all those Tories who put him there, but really, it's past a joke now.
Whatever you think of the £3 supporters scheme it wasn't determinative in getting Corbyn elected. He'd have been elected with just the other two groups, full party members and the registered members of unions and other affiliated organisations.

And while it is true that tories (or anyone) could have become a £3 supporter, and certainly some did - I doubt this was a particularly large group.

Hope

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #233 on: July 15, 2016, 08:47:03 AM »
Whatever you think of the £3 supporters scheme it wasn't determinative in getting Corbyn elected. He'd have been elected with just the other two groups, full party members and the registered members of unions and other affiliated organisations.

And while it is true that tories (or anyone) could have become a £3 supporter, and certainly some did - I doubt this was a particularly large group.
If I remember correctly, the membership doubled with the advent of the £3ers.  That doesn't sound like a small group.
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Gonnagle

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #234 on: July 15, 2016, 08:55:22 AM »
Dear Hope,

The important part, what our resident Tory supporter is trying to suggest ( God Bless Him ) is that it was great swathes of Tory supporters who helped Corbyn win, I doubt very much that this is the case.

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Steve H

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #235 on: July 15, 2016, 10:01:41 AM »
Corbynistas continue to besmirch Angela

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-36771205
Right-wing crypto-tories continue to besmirch, plot against, and undermine Jeremy.  I rejoined Labour when he became leader, but if he's ousted I'll be off back to the Greens like a shot.
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jeremyp

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #236 on: July 15, 2016, 10:03:53 AM »
If I remember correctly, the membership doubled with the advent of the £3ers.  That doesn't sound like a small group.
And if it hadn't he would still have got in and most of the doubling was not Tories trying to stitch up the Labour Party.
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Hope

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #237 on: July 15, 2016, 10:05:14 AM »
And if it hadn't he would still have got in and most of the doubling was not Tories trying to stitch up the Labour Party.
No, but they weren't necessarily Corbynites, either.  They may have been folk who wanted to stop him.
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jeremyp

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #238 on: July 15, 2016, 10:06:41 AM »
No, but they weren't necessarily Corbynites, either.  They may have been folk who wanted to stop him.

So what is the point you are trying to make then?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #239 on: July 15, 2016, 10:07:18 AM »
Right-wing crypto-tories continue to besmirch, plot against, and undermine Jeremy.  I rejoined Labour when he became leader, but if he's ousted I'll be off back to the Greens like a shot.
My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek, see link

Hope

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #240 on: July 15, 2016, 10:29:46 AM »
So what is the point you are trying to make then?
That they might have been ex-Labour party members rejoining, or people who chose to join on the express purpose of stopping him.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #241 on: July 15, 2016, 10:56:52 AM »
If I remember correctly, the membership doubled with the advent of the £3ers.  That doesn't sound like a small group.
The membership and the £3ers are different categories.

In the 2015 election, 245,520 members voted, 105,598 of the £3ers (registered supporters) voted and 71,546 of affiliated supporters (those in unions and other affiliated organisations that had register to be able to vote).

Corbyns first round % in each of the categories was 49.59%, 83.76% and 57.61%

He would have won in the first round even if the registered supporter category didn't exist.

L.A.

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #242 on: July 17, 2016, 04:06:39 PM »
Whatever you think of the £3 supporters scheme it wasn't determinative in getting Corbyn elected. He'd have been elected with just the other two groups, full party members and the registered members of unions and other affiliated organisations.

And while it is true that tories (or anyone) could have become a £3 supporter, and certainly some did - I doubt this was a particularly large group.

Last time I saw the figures it looked as if he 'three quid votes' might have given it to Corbyn on the first ballot and, Tory or far Left, it seems likely that a great number of those voters did not have the best interests of the Labour Party at heart.

It looks like Labour Right are trying to use that strategy to their advantage now. There has been a large increase in £3 registrations in recent weeks and a number of my Labour friends have asked me to register and vote - obviously for anyone but Corbyn.
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jeremyp

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #243 on: July 17, 2016, 07:40:07 PM »
it seems likely that a great number of those voters did not have the best interests of the Labour Party at heart.
I don't know if there's any evidence to support that point of view. I mean yes, some people who wanted to screw over the Labour Party did register but I doubt if it was enough to make a big difference. My own personal experience is that most of the people I know who registered for the £3 thing wanted a proper socialist in charge (but remember, anecdotes are not data).
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #244 on: July 17, 2016, 07:48:54 PM »
Last time I saw the figures it looked as if he 'three quid votes' might have given it to Corbyn on the first ballot ...
That is wrong.

I've already given the actual results of last year's election - Corbyn would have won on the first ballot without the £3 supporters. He had over 50% of the combined total of the other two groups, the members and the affiliated supporters.

SusanDoris

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #245 on: July 18, 2016, 08:35:57 AM »
rather than start a different topic, I think I'll just mention the nuclear deterrent question here. There was someone on the radio last night saying that the nuclear deterrent was 'out-dated'. 'Out-dated'??? What on earth was that person talking about? Has someone invented something which would make it redundant? Something more powerful? I didn't catch who the speaker was, but that person should think a bit more before saying that the nuclear deterrent is 'out-dated'. Thank goodness the vote is mostlikely to be in favour of retaining ours.
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jeremyp

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #246 on: July 18, 2016, 08:42:41 AM »
rather than start a different topic, I think I'll just mention the nuclear deterrent question here. There was someone on the radio last night saying that the nuclear deterrent was 'out-dated'. 'Out-dated'??? What on earth was that person talking about? Has someone invented something which would make it redundant? Something more powerful? I didn't catch who the speaker was, but that person should think a bit more before saying that the nuclear deterrent is 'out-dated'. Thank goodness the vote is mostlikely to be in favour of retaining ours.

They probably meant that most of the threats to our society seem to come from terrorist groups these days and terrorist groups are not deterred by nuclear weapons.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #247 on: July 18, 2016, 10:24:26 AM »
rather than start a different topic, I think I'll just mention the nuclear deterrent question here. There was someone on the radio last night saying that the nuclear deterrent was 'out-dated'. 'Out-dated'??? What on earth was that person talking about? Has someone invented something which would make it redundant? Something more powerful? I didn't catch who the speaker was, but that person should think a bit more before saying that the nuclear deterrent is 'out-dated'. Thank goodness the vote is mostlikely to be in favour of retaining ours.

Surely this is a different topic, and worthy of one on its own?

SusanDoris

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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #248 on: July 18, 2016, 11:25:42 AM »
Surely this is a different topic, and worthy of one on its own?
You're probably right NS, but actually I don't think I personally have much more to say on the subject. I am absolutely clear that we should maintain our nuclear capability along with the submarines to go with it.
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Re: New Party leaders
« Reply #249 on: July 18, 2016, 11:26:51 AM »
You're probably right NS, but actually I don't think I personally have much more to say on the subject. I am absolutely clear that we should maintain our nuclear capability along with the submarines to go with it.

Same here.