Author Topic: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?  (Read 19346 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #100 on: August 07, 2016, 07:34:49 PM »
Hope,

As you seem to have missed Reply 74, here it is again.

You're welcome.

Hope,

Quote
OK, I have experienced a number of things during my life, from a stroke to trekking in the Himalayas.  I would say that the experiences I have had of God at work, both in my life and the lives of others are comparabe in nature and quality to the first two experiences I mentioned.

As I assume that when you saw these things a little man wearing a hat saying "God" didn't appear presumably what you meant to say here was something like, "the experiences I have had that, for want of a better explanation, I have attributed to something I call "God"" etc.

Which is fair enough - countless people at countless times in countless places have attributed supernatural explanations to phenomena for which they had no better explanations: Thor and thunder, fighting dragons and the aurora borealis etc.

Whether they or you are correct in your various attributions of cause is a different matter entirely of course, but the practice is just a manifestation of our explanation-seeking nature. 

Quote
Not quite sure why you feel that it is a "mountain to climb of explaining".

Because if you expect anyone else to think you're right abut your attribution of cause, then so far only a strongly held personal opinion on the matter takes you not one inch down that path.

Or, to put it another way, you offer nothing for the rest of us qualitatively to distinguish your narrative from those of the Thor-ist or the dragon-ist.

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Hope

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #101 on: August 07, 2016, 09:03:15 PM »
Hope,

As you seem to have missed Reply 74, here it is again.
As you say, I missed that post.  However, having read the first paragraph, I'm not sure that I missed much content.  The reason I said what I said is because that's what I meant.  For instance, when one has a stroke, 'a little man' doesn't pop up and say - 'you've had a stroke'.  Rather, one is aware that something is wrong.  In my case, for a number of reasons, 'stroke' was the third option on the list as I'd recently started on a new medication whose side-effects mirrored what I was experiencing.  Similarly, when trekking through the Himalayas, one doesn't meet 'a little man' who asks you what you think of the views, etc.  Its a deep-rooted response to what you are experiencing.

I realise that you want everything to be clear-cut, provable and physical in nature; I'm afraid that my experience is that life doesn't fit into a neat set of parameters like that.  Instead, it is messier, more dynamic, and more fluid.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2016, 09:11:33 PM »
Be expectant but best not to have expectations. If you find you require an experience then you need to be addressing that to God. If not you've told him how you feel in the best way you can.

In short keep addressing things to God.
Is there a time limit?
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Hope

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #103 on: August 07, 2016, 09:14:45 PM »
Is there a time limit?
Yes; the day of Judgement is the last day of the offer.  Just when that will be - no-one knows; not even the JWs, etc. who regularly predict when it will occur.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2016, 09:27:52 PM »
Yes; the day of Judgement is the last day of the offer.  Just when that will be - no-one knows; not even the JWs, etc. who regularly predict when it will occur.
Could it be soon as in a few months?
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SweetPea

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #105 on: August 07, 2016, 09:28:59 PM »
Sweet Pea,

If not in the brain where else would you "know" this, and in any case what distinguishes what you call "spiritual" from just feeling deeply about something?

Rather in the heart than the brain. But that isn't entirely right. It's hard to explain.

Otherwise, you're confusing spiritual experience with thoughts and emotion. (This is to Maeght and Torridon, as well.)
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

Maeght

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #106 on: August 07, 2016, 10:32:05 PM »
Rather in the heart than the brain. But that isn't entirely right. It's hard to explain.

Otherwise, you're confusing spiritual experience with thoughts and emotion. (This is to Maeght and Torridon, as well.)

So you do think the brain isn't involved?

Perhaps you're the one who is confused.


Brownie

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #107 on: August 07, 2016, 11:51:44 PM »
SP, if we swapped 'brain' for 'mind', would you agree with that?
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BeRational

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #108 on: August 08, 2016, 12:43:08 AM »
SP, if we swapped 'brain' for 'mind', would you agree with that?

What's the difference?
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Leonard James

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2016, 06:15:19 AM »
What's the difference?

I believe they think the 'mind' is a separate entity that sits in the brain.  ;D

torridon

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #110 on: August 08, 2016, 07:50:14 AM »
Yes; the day of Judgement is the last day of the offer.  Just when that will be - no-one knows; not even the JWs, etc. who regularly predict when it will occur.

What will happen on that day ?

torridon

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2016, 07:59:17 AM »
Your prayer could be as simple as ''God, I find I am in the position where I would like a relationship with you''.

This looks like a psychological strategy to create an imaginary friend through mind training techniques. It presupposes there is a god there in the first place who can 'hear' silent thoughts in a human head. A more honest strategy would seek to avoid such mind conditioning, humans are masters of the art of self-deception.

Brownie

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2016, 08:22:55 AM »
I believe they think the 'mind' is a separate entity that sits in the brain.  ;D

Who is "they" for goodness sakes?   It was me who asked SP if she meant that and I don't think the mind is a separate entity that sits in the brain.

There are many studies on mind/brain, some of us on here recently delved into it.  Google 'mind/brain studies' and you'll know what I meant.


« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 11:23:06 AM by Brownie »
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #113 on: August 08, 2016, 08:37:43 AM »
Yes; the day of Judgement is the last day of the offer.  Just when that will be - no-one knows; not even the JWs, etc. who regularly predict when it will occur.

Everybody has his own "Judgement Day". Unfortunately for some, though, is that no such activity takes place. What happens is that you just ... switch off. Nothing follows. No memories linger. Just nothing.

Wise people accept this. Religion provides a false hope that something will follow :
- singing endless praises with seraphim and cherubim to a rather self-centred deity that seems to get off on being worshipped
- endless shagging with 72 virgins for acts of random violence which also involved one's own death

...

there must be other equally vacuous fantasies.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #114 on: August 08, 2016, 10:53:30 AM »
Hope,

Quote
As you say, I missed that post.  However, having read the first paragraph, I'm not sure that I missed much content.

Well, let’s see…

Quote
The reason I said what I said is because that's what I meant.

You meant to say that it was definitely, categorically, unquestionably “God at work” even though the claim could only be one attribution of cause? Really? Whence your cast iron confidence that you could not have been entirely mistaken about that?

Quote
For instance, when one has a stroke, 'a little man' doesn't pop up and say - 'you've had a stroke'.  Rather, one is aware that something is wrong.  In my case, for a number of reasons, 'stroke' was the third option on the list as I'd recently started on a new medication whose side-effects mirrored what I was experiencing.

But what you experienced there was a physiological response (which by your own admission you initially thought to be caused by something other than the actual cause), followed by the identification of the actual cause using the empirical tools of medicine. As anecdotes go, this one pretty much demonstrates the opposite of the point you thought you were making.

Quote
Similarly, when trekking through the Himalayas, one doesn't meet 'a little man' who asks you what you think of the views, etc.  Its a deep-rooted response to what you are experiencing.

No doubt, but that “deep-rooted response” was an aesthetic one. So far as I can tell you’re not claiming that the sense of beauty you experienced was an objective fact for everyone else too whether or not they felt the same way.

Now compare that with you claimed fact “God”. Do you see the qualitative difference here? 

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I realise that you want everything to be clear-cut…

Then you “realise” wrongly – I’m fine with doubt and uncertainty and ambiguity. Why though can’t you say the same when you attribute “God” as the supposedly certain cause of the phenomena you observe?

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…provable…

Well, “demonstrable such that the claim can be distinguished from mistake, just guessing etc” yes. Isn’t that a good thing though? After all, don’t you ask for the same thing in response to the claims of Thor-ists, dragonists etc?

Why the double standard?

Quote
…would and physical in nature;

Nope.If someone who posits the non-physical could ever define and demonstrate such a thing that would be a fascinating discovery with huge implications. The problem so far at leas though is that all its proponents offer is wishful thinking, which may satisfy them but offers nothing to the rest of us. 

Quote
I'm afraid that my experience is that life doesn't fit into a neat set of parameters like that.  Instead, it is messier, more dynamic, and more fluid.

No doubt, but ignore the problem as you might when you seek to argue for the cause you attribute to those experiences by relying on fallacious reasoning then you leave the rest of us with no choice but to conclude that you’re probably mistaken.

So to re-cap, when you opened with, “I'm not sure that I missed much content” can I politely suggest that you actually missed the content entirely?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #115 on: August 08, 2016, 11:05:16 AM »
This looks like a psychological strategy to create an imaginary friend through mind training techniques. It presupposes there is a god there in the first place who can 'hear' silent thoughts in a human head. A more honest strategy would seek to avoid such mind conditioning, humans are masters of the art of self-deception.
I know of people who have added ''If you exist'' to this prayer.
I'm afraid not to want to just throw a message into ''the dark'' not only presumes that God does not exist but presumes the dark does not exist.
I call this state of utter faith philosophical naturalism but some take exception to being labelled with ''utter certainty'' in what is a bad case of having their cake and eat it..........To put it simply ''Agnostic atheism my arse.''
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

Maeght

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #116 on: August 08, 2016, 11:49:11 AM »

I'm afraid not to want to just throw a message into ''the dark'' not only presumes that God does not exist but presumes the dark does not exist.
I call this state of utter faith philosophical naturalism but some take exception to being labelled with ''utter certainty'' in what is a bad case of having their cake and eat it..........To put it simply ''Agnostic atheism my arse.''

If you have no belief in something why would you pretend to send that something a message?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #117 on: August 08, 2016, 11:59:16 AM »
If you have no belief in something why would you pretend to send that something a message?
If you are agnostic about anything how do you know you are pretending to send a message. In other words if you are sure you would be pretending then you are not agnostic about God but certain there isn't.

Therefore your claim to be agnostic is just to salve your sorry conscience at being ,after all, a dogmatist.
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

Enki

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #118 on: August 08, 2016, 02:26:46 PM »
I have no belief in the Christian God, or, in fact, any god, but I would happily accept that I may be wrong in my unbelief. On occasion I have been asked to pray to God, which I have duly done, with no discernible effects. These occasions therefore help to confirm my unbelief, but I would still maintain that my position is a holding position until or unless some form of objective evidence either for or against the existence of God becomes available.
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Maeght

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #119 on: August 08, 2016, 03:55:20 PM »
If you are agnostic about anything how do you know you are pretending to send a message. In other words if you are sure you would be pretending then you are not agnostic about God but certain there isn't.

Therefore your claim to be agnostic is just to salve your sorry conscience at being ,after all, a dogmatist.

Of course I would be pretending if I have no belief. I don't know that there would be 'no one' there to pick up any message but the message wouldn't be genuine one if I have no belief would it?

In what way am I a dogmatist? I have always said I have no belief but could be wrong. I just don't think someone with no belief in God could attempt to send a genuine message to God - you have to have some inclining of belief to begin with.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #120 on: August 08, 2016, 05:08:50 PM »
Of course I would be pretending if I have no belief. I don't know that there would be 'no one' there to pick up any message but the message wouldn't be genuine one if I have no belief would it?

In what way am I a dogmatist? I have always said I have no belief but could be wrong. I just don't think someone with no belief in God could attempt to send a genuine message to God - you have to have some inclining of belief to begin with.
But by eschewing a speculative message into the dark you have committed to a definite point of view and gambled.

I might be agnostic about alien life......but that does not prevent me from looking for signals or making them or putting a small plaque on a space ship, itself a speculative shot in the dark.

Agnostics do these things. Dogmatists don't.

If you cannot send a speculative message out to the God into the dark of not knowing I'm afraid you cannot be agnostic about God.....nor an agnostic atheist.
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #121 on: August 08, 2016, 05:20:43 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
But by eschewing a speculative message into the dark you have committed to a definite point of view and gambled.

I might be agnostic about alien life......but that does not prevent me from looking for signals or making them or putting a small plaque on a space ship, itself a speculative shot in the dark.

Agnostics do these things. Dogmatists don't.

If you cannot send a speculative message out to the God into the dark of not knowing I'm afraid you cannot be agnostic about God.....nor an agnostic atheist.

Ah, but what if there is a god but he's not your god? And what if that god is as adolescently jealous of people believing in the wrong god as you seem to think your god to be, and for that matter just as spiteful in his punishments for doing it?

Why then would Maeght take that risk when doing nothing would be the safer bet?

PS It's been a while since you dusted off Pascal's wager. Do we really have to dismantle it for you again?

PPS Perhaps you missed this earlier?:

WHAT RELEVANCE DO YOU THINK "DESIRING A RELATIONSHIP" WITH SOMETHING HAS TO THAT SOMETHING BEING REAL?

 

 
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Maeght

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #122 on: August 08, 2016, 05:43:50 PM »
But by eschewing a speculative message into the dark you have committed to a definite point of view and gambled.

I might be agnostic about alien life......but that does not prevent me from looking for signals or making them or putting a small plaque on a space ship, itself a speculative shot in the dark.

Agnostics do these things. Dogmatists don't.

If you cannot send a speculative message out to the God into the dark of not knowing I'm afraid you cannot be agnostic about God.....nor an agnostic atheist.

What sort of message are you actually thinking off?  I could think in my head 'Hello if you're there - make yourself known' but I'm sure any God wouldn't see this as anything genuine. For it to be a genuine attempt at communication it would need to have some belief that something existed surely. I could just as well send the same message to any of the gods people have believed in and continue to believe in - just in case. Or a general message to anything.

I haven't gambled anything since I have no belief so pretending to attempt to send out a message 'just in case' wouldn't be genuine and I'm sure no God would be fooled by that.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #123 on: August 08, 2016, 06:03:11 PM »
Maeght,

Quote
I haven't gambled anything since I have no belief so pretending to attempt to send out a message 'just in case' wouldn't be genuine and I'm sure no God would be fooled by that.

Which is one of the rebuttals incidentally to Pascal's wager: an omniscient god would know if you were gaming him by playing the odds, so the only way the cry in the dark (or whatever Vladdy calls it) could work would be if you believed in "him" (god that is, not Vlad) a priori.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: The Sunday Assembly - Surprising BBC?
« Reply #124 on: August 08, 2016, 06:45:08 PM »
Would you desire a relationship with God though?.............I think that's the point.

What an odd point though.

He either exists or he doesn't. Making his existence known to me in an unambiguous way doesn't force my hand either way. I could want to know him or reject him. It's the does it exist thing that comes first