Hillsborough - Charges to be brought

[Nearly Sane]

After slow food, slow justice


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40419819

[Harrowby Hall]

The mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small

So do the mills of the law.

[Rhiannon]

Hillsborough shook me. The disaster itself, of course, but then the lying that went through every level and the blaming of the innocent. I didn't believe that the state could do such a thing until this.

[floo]

After slow food, slow justice


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40419819

Too slow!

[Nearly Sane]

Hillsborough shook me. The disaster itself, of course, but then the lying that went through every level and the blaming of the innocent. I didn't believe that the state could do such a thing until this.

That the state could do it wasn't a shock to me. That it would do it over something that was such relatively small import to it was a bit of a shock. In part thus informs why I think McDonnell is justified in what might seem to some intemperate language over Grenfell. The state by nature of seems suppresses and hides.

[wigginhall]

Yes, some people were saying that McDonnell was being intemperate, and we have to be calm and measured, but this has often meant kicking things into the long grass, where they become invisible.   It was only because Hillsborough families would not give up that the lies were exposed.

Locals are saying about Grenfell that 300 people are missing, and the authorities are covering up.    On the other hand, rumours like this tend to get out of hand.   A common view also is that the govt are terrified of riots.     

[Nearly Sane]

A number of threads here seem interrelated. The idea that the murders of Haggerty while in the UVF with possible state knowledge are somehow to be dealt with by a quick shout of what about Gerry Adams. The idea that we gave an establishment that can be passed down by hereditary principles. The idea that the past was a golden era.

The tragedy of Hillsborough for those of us who didn't lose lived ones is that there isn't a conspiracy of evil, it's just a determination to cover up squalidly inept decisions. It's not as the conspiracy theorists have that we create false flag events to manipulate public opinion. It's that we make chronically bad decisions that we then desperately try to cover up. We are still in the playground, still shouting it wisnae me.

[wigginhall]

Cock-up not conspiracy.   

[Nearly Sane]

Cock-up not conspiracy.

Cock up followed by conspiracy. Not grand plans, just sad.

[Rhiannon]

Cock up followed by conspiracy. Not grand plans, just sad.

Agreed.

I don't think there is a cat in hell's chance that Grenfell will ever go the same way regardless of any rhetoric from politicians.

[Nearly Sane]

Agreed.

I don't think there is a cat in hell's chance that Grenfell will ever go the same way regardless of any rhetoric from politicians.

Maybe not but trying to say speaking out is somehow bad is a problem as it applies beyond politicians.

[floo]

Agreed.

I don't think there is a cat in hell's chance that Grenfell will ever go the same way regardless of any rhetoric from politicians.

One hopes not.

[Nearly Sane]

One hopes not.

Except you want to stop people expressing their thoughts on it.

[floo]

Except you want to stop people expressing their thoughts on it.

I want to stop people starting riots, which often leads to the innocent getting hurt or killed.

[Nearly Sane]

I want to stop people starting riots, which often leads to the innocent getting hurt or killed.

By stopping people expressing themselves and with no evidence that them doing so will cause riots, and ignoring that suppressing people expressing themselves could cause riots.

[Harrowby Hall]

I want to stop people starting riots, which often leads to the innocent getting hurt or killed.

There appear to be a number of people who are angry at the delay in naming those who died in the fire. There is no conspiracy but perhaps - understandably - a reluctance to talk about the difficulties of identifying people who have been effectively cremated. In some flats it may well be difficult to distinguish between human remains and totally burned furniture and other property.

[floo]

There appear to be a number of people who are angry at the delay in naming those who died in the fire. There is no conspiracy but perhaps - understandably - a reluctance to talk about the difficulties of identifying people who have been effectively cremated. In some flats it may well be difficult to distinguish between human remains and totally burned furniture and other property.

People have a right to be angry, but anger should not spill into violence, which only makes a very bad situation even worse.

[Nearly Sane]

As the maxim goes, hard cases make bad law, but sometimes bad law makes hard cases. That due to the law it took four years for Tony Gland's life support to be switched off, and that he died too late to allow his case to be part of the prosecution seems a proper Catch 22


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40445399

[Nearly Sane]

And the question is where does any responsibility for the unlawful killings lie? Ir's not easy to say it was Duckenfield but then where does any responsibility lie?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077

[jeremyp]

And the question is where does any responsibility for the unlawful killings lie? Ir's not easy to say it was Duckenfield but then where does any responsibility lie?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077

I was not privy to the evidence presented at this trial, but I could see how there might be a collective responsibility with no individual's culpability rising to the level of convicting them of manslaughter.

[Nearly Sane]

I was not privy to the evidence presented at this trial, but I could see how there might be a collective responsibility with no individual's culpability rising to the level of convicting them of manslaughter.

Agree but there should be some way then of reflecting that else responsibility is dissolved.