Prevent

[Rhiannon]

Difficult to see how this doesn't focus on particular communities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40845911

[floo]

Something drastic need to be done to stop people becoming radicalised and becoming a potential danger.

[Rhiannon]

Effective rather than drastic. The question is, does Prevent fit the bill?

[Nearly Sane]

Something drastic need to be done to stop people becoming radicalised and becoming a potential danger.

like what? And why does it need to be 'drastic'?

[Nearly Sane]

Difficult to see how this doesn't focus on particular communities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40845911

difficult to see how it can avoid it.

[Rhiannon]

difficult to see how it can avoid it.

Yes I agree. Is there a reluctance on the part of some communities to admit there's a problem? Or is it wrong to target a certain element of society?

[floo]

like what? And why does it need to be 'drastic'?

So are you suggesting nothing is done?

I am hoping someone can come up with a strategy, which is very effective as far too many young people are being radicalised.

There also needs to be a crackdown on religious schools, which proselytise, as it can be extremely harmful imo.

[Nearly Sane]

So are you suggesting nothing is done?

I am hoping someone can come up with a strategy, which is very effective as far too many young people are being radicalised.

There also needs to be a crackdown on religious schools, which proselytise, as it can be extremely harmful imo.

No, I'm suggesting that stating that whatever it is must be 'drastic' 8s sloganising to make you feel good. As Rhiannon pointed out, it should be effective first and foremost. That might well be a number of snakk adjustments, who knows.


Don't all religious schools proselytise?

[Owlswing]

No, I'm suggesting that stating that whatever it is must be 'drastic' 8s sloganising to make you feel good. As Rhiannon pointed out, it should be effective first and foremost. That might well be a number of snakk adjustments, who knows.


Don't all religious schools proselytise?

. . . but which religious schools proselytise for a religion that has sects that are proselytising militant vilolence and murder?

[Nearly Sane]

Yes I agree. Is there a reluctance on the part of some communities to admit there's a problem? Or is it wrong to target a certain element of society?

I think that there must be many in the Muslim community who fear that a badly carried out strategy will increase radicalisation. I don't think you can avoid it being about the relationship with the Muslim community but done badly, it's not going to help.

[Nearly Sane]

. . . but which religious schools proselytise for a religion that has sects that are proselytising militant vilolence and murder?

all of them.

[floo]

No, I'm suggesting that stating that whatever it is must be 'drastic' 8s sloganising to make you feel good. As Rhiannon pointed out, it should be effective first and foremost. That might well be a number of snakk adjustments, who knows.


Don't all religious schools proselytise?

Not all of them force religion down the throats of kids. The church school nearest us is very moderate in its teaching.

[Nearly Sane]

Not all of them force religion down the throats of kids. The church school nearest us is very moderate in its teaching.

But proselytizing isn't a question of what you regard as moderate. It's about spreading their beliefs.

[Rhiannon]

There's some info here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40060325

In some areas the majority of referrals are for those showing far right tendencies.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I think that while Prevent has some success stories in some communities, it inevitably results in feelings of alienation and anger when people are wrongly referred to Prevent due to the understandable ignorance of the people referring them.

The weakness of Prevent is that a few hours or weeks of training is not always going to enable a teacher or GP to recognise extremism as opposed to cultural behaviour that they do not understand and feel uneasy about, and once they have reported a child or a person rather than casually asking for more information and trying to gain more understanding, the victim of their over-zealous reporting will feel alienated. Children especially have reported being traumatised when the police get involved as they fear they are about to be taken away and parents will feel frustrated and unsupported that they are left to pick up the pieces after the police get involved over a misunderstanding.

My personal experience (outside of a few on this forum) is that people are fairly tolerant of differences, and do not have a problem with the expression of religious values or religious indoctrination of children. We went to Italy last month and my husband said his prayers unobtrusively in a kosher restaurant in the Jewish quarter as well as on the Al Italia plane as it was about to take off - you can pray seated and just bend forward in your seat if there is no opportunity to pray properly with all the accompanying prostrations. He was also chatting on the phone to a Muslim client while on the plane before it took off and his conversation is usually liberally sprinkled with Arabic terms when talking to other Muslims but no one showed any signs of being bothered. But there have been reports of over-zealous reporting to police on planes or in schools in certain parts of Britain, which undermines what Prevent is trying to achieve if Muslims cultural behaviour is policed more heavily than other communities e.g. advocating and supporting establishing a Jewish state as a religious duty based on violently discriminating against and stealing land from non-Jews does not get the same reaction as supporting the non-violent establishment of a Muslim state (Khilafah) that discriminates against non-Muslims.

The government also seems to regard Muslims who prohibit participating in music and dancing as being signs of extremism rather than conservatism. Which means they will alienate a certain proportion of Muslims who are conservative but not a terrorist threat and who might have helped them combat terrorism.

But not sure what the solution is. I think certain ideas need to be be able to be openly expressed in order for them to be challenged rather than the beliefs being criminalised and not allowed to be expressed. If I hear the view being expressed that 9/11 was a Jewish conspiracy orchestrated by Israel and the CIA, I challenge it as much as I challenge the belief that your average Muslim community in Britain is secretly plotting to impose Islam on Britain.

That is not to say that members of some Muslim communities do not have form for plotting violence or that certain members of Israeli government have not had form for terrorist activity or conspiracies e.g. the well-known 1954 Lavon Affair where attacks were made on British and American institutions in Egypt by Egyptian Jews on behalf of Israel and it was made to appear as if the attacks were carried out by Egyptian Arabs to damage relations between Egypt and the US and UK.

[Nearly Sane]

The immediacy of 'form' is relevant.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

True.

Mossad/the IDF/ Israeli government officials have recent form e.g. for supporting the formation of Hamas to counter the PA, for assassinations and for ignoring the rule of law. There is still an illegal occupation and settlement building, with arbitrary arrests, road blocks that prevent access to hospital treatment and schools and violent raids to provoke Palestinian violence to justify repression. 

Both sides have form for flouting international law and engaging in acts of provocation that get a reaction that can be used as propaganda for their political agenda as well as to justify fund raising for further military spending and acts of violence.

[Nearly Sane]

And propinquity is also relevant to Prevent. What Mossad does is essentially irrelevant unless you are suggesting they are behind radicalization in the UK leading to terror attacks currently?

[Rhiannon]

Gabriella, the reporting of innocent activity by Muslims that you recount is very similar to the reporting of pagans to the authorities on the basis that some associate witchcraft and paganism with Satanism and child abuse. All bullshit of course but ignorance breeds fear.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And propinquity is also relevant to Prevent. What Mossad does is essentially irrelevant unless you are suggesting they are behind radicalization in the UK leading to terror attacks currently?

Not that I am aware of.

The point I am trying to make is that Prevent is looking at policing beliefs, not just violent acts or terrorism in the UK. Muslims will feel unfairly targeted if Prevent identifies beliefs such as support for the establishment of a Khilafah abroad as extremism, but non-Muslims who hold beliefs such as support for establishing a Jewish state abroad through violence or support for the overthrow of the British monarchy or support for a communist state in the UK or support for doing away with democracy is not extremism.

It becomes especially divisive if Prevent training results in teachers calling the police over things young children are saying at school. You can imagine that the parents are going to be defensive, feel alienated and this will influence those around them. One of the main criticisms of Prevent seems to be lack of transparency about how teachers and GPs are being trained to differentiate extremism from cultural differences or conservatism.

[Nearly Sane]

Not that I am aware of.

The point I am trying to make is that Prevent is looking at policing beliefs, not just violent acts or terrorism in the UK. Muslims will feel unfairly targeted if Prevent identifies beliefs such as support for the establishment of a Khilafah abroad as extremism, but non-Muslims who hold beliefs such as support for establishing a Jewish state abroad through violence or support for the overthrow of the British monarchy or support for a communist state in the UK or support for doing away with democracy is not extremism.

It becomes especially divisive if Prevent training results in teachers calling the police over things young children are saying at school. You can imagine that the parents are going to be defensive, feel alienated and this will influence those around them. One of the main criticisms of Prevent seems to be lack of transparency about how teachers and GPs are being trained to differentiate extremism from cultural differences or conservatism.

No, it is openly about terrorism  to UK, either here or UK citizens abroad. Note I didn't say Muslims, we were talking about Jewish threats of which there don't seem to be any to the UK currently.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/97976/prevent-strategy-review.pdf

[Nearly Sane]

Of course we still have other home grown terrorism


http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/07/10/news/nihe-rehouses-286-individuals-and-families-due-to-paramilitary-intimidation-1079881/?param=ds12rif76F

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

No, it is openly about terrorism  to UK, either here or UK citizens abroad. Note I didn't say Muslims, we were talking about Jewish threats of which there don't seem to be any to the UK currently.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/97976/prevent-strategy-review.pdf

From your link - 3.10 says:

We remain absolutely committed to protecting freedom of speech in this country. But preventing
terrorism will mean challenging extremist (and non-violent) ideas that are also part of a terrorist
ideology. Prevent will also mean intervening to stop people moving from extremist groups or from
extremism into terrorist-related activity.

As I said, one of the criticisms of Prevent is that there is little transparency on how people are trained to determine what is and isn't an extremist non-violent idea that requires a referral and police intervention.  What also appears to be a concern is that Muslims holding a non-violent idea or belief that a terrorist organisation might also hold will result in a referral to Prevent and a police intervention if someone in authority, such as a teacher, deems the idea to be extreme. IMO a better approach would be to challenge the non-violent idea and allow debate, which does happen in some schools and not in others based on media reports.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/03/prevent-strategy-sowing-mistrust-fear-muslim-communities

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/home-affairs-committee/countering-extremism/written/27920.pdf 

[Nearly Sane]

From your link - 3.10 says:

We remain absolutely committed to protecting freedom of speech in this country. But preventing
terrorism will mean challenging extremist (and non-violent) ideas that are also part of a terrorist
ideology. Prevent will also mean intervening to stop people moving from extremist groups or from
extremism into terrorist-related activity.

As I said, one of the criticisms of Prevent is that there is little transparency on how people are trained to determine what is and isn't an extremist non-violent idea that requires a referral and police intervention.  What also appears to be a concern is that Muslims holding a non-violent idea or belief that a terrorist organisation might also hold will result in a referral to Prevent and a police intervention if someone in authority, such as a teacher, deems the idea to be extreme. IMO a better approach would be to challenge the non-violent idea and allow debate, which does happen in some schools and not in others based on media reports.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/03/prevent-strategy-sowing-mistrust-fear-muslim-communities

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/home-affairs-committee/countering-extremism/written/27920.pdf

Not really sure what the point is that you are making here. Surely the issue about transparency isn't specific to Muslims? Given the numbers covered in Rhiannon's link earlier, those areas where the largest identified reports are about right wing extremism that also applies.

Oh and can I just check that we have moved in from the idea that we are going to have much reporting about Jewish terrorism against the UK?


Just to be clear, I am not a big fan of Prevent but any 'strategy' that is concentrating on current radicalization will be focussed to some extent on Islamic extremism, as the link makes clear that Prevent does, for the obvious reason that in UK terms that's currently the largest issue.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Not really sure what the point is that you are making here. Surely the issue about transparency isn't specific to Muslims? Given the numbers covered in Rhiannon's link earlier, those areas where the largest identified reports are about right wing extremism that also applies.

I've explained my point a few times now. Not sure how to explain it any differently I'm afraid. 

The point I make about transparency does not need to be specific to Muslims. It is a criticism raised by some Muslims based on their experience of Prevent of over-zealous reporting based on misunderstanding of cultural differences, but it could equally apply to anyone else who has not engaged in violence but who has been referred under Prevent as being an extremist for holding non-violent ideas. 

Oh and can I just check that we have moved in from the idea that we are going to have much reporting about Jewish terrorism against the UK?

I'm not sure - was your problem that you misunderstood a point I was making or did you actually think there is much reporting about Jewish terrorism in the UK? If so have you moved on from that idea?

Just to be clear, I am not a big fan of Prevent but any 'strategy' that is concentrating on current radicalization will be focussed to some extent on Islamic extremism, as the link makes clear that Prevent does, for the obvious reason that in UK terms that's currently the largest issue.

The community that Prevent is focusing on is not the issue IMO.

The issue is whether Prevent is identifying vulnerable people at risk of radicalizing and intervening to prevent radicalisation, or if a lack of sufficient training about cultural differences is resulting in over-zealous referrals made under Prevent  causing a "them and us" mentality in some communities that undermines the government's objectives of creating a cohesive, integrated community with shared values to prevent alienation leading to radicalisation.