Author Topic: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?  (Read 52445 times)

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #300 on: January 01, 2018, 09:49:02 AM »
Try the "orbit level" launch, with a launch angle of 0 and force of 7. This produces a near circular orbit.

The simulation demonstrates that you can only get the moon into a circular orbit if it is launched from the orbit level. I suppose this could be done if you had two bodies colliding at the level of the orbit, one disappearing into space and the other going into the circular orbit.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 09:51:24 AM by Spud »

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #301 on: January 01, 2018, 10:14:48 AM »
Try the "orbit level" launch, with a launch angle of 0 and force of 7. This produces a near circular orbit.

The simulation demonstrates that you can only get the moon into a circular orbit if it is launched from the orbit level. I suppose this could be done if you had two bodies colliding at the level of the orbit, one disappearing into space and the other going into the circular orbit.

Spud

Why don't you look for some information from people who know what they are talking about and ignore the Mickey Mouse creationist websites. For example this one from NASA.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/moon/indepth

 

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #302 on: January 01, 2018, 12:32:10 PM »
If the big bang was anything like the one that woke me up last night, then it was a state of high entropy. Otherwise it needs a different name.

Sadly it does because it is used by people who don't actually understand the science to attack it. It refers to a rapid expansion of all space and time, not some explosion like a firework!

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Other examples include the evolution fallacy (observed microevolution implies macroevolution). Genetic mutation always leads to a decrease in overall viability even though it allows adaptation to a specific environment.

All this nonsense has been discussed many times on other threads and is OT for this one.

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Re the moon, try a launch angle from space of -14 and a force of 4. This was the closest I could get to the near circular orbit of our moon, but it gives an elliptical orbit with it being either really close to or far from the earth. I will try again with the collision option.

OT - but why do you trust some basic computer game on a creationist website Spud? I know the answer by the way but perhaps you should give it some thought.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #303 on: January 01, 2018, 12:55:48 PM »

The simulation demonstrates that you can only get the moon into a circular orbit if it is launched from the orbit level.
Maybe it demonstrates what the authors want  it to demonstrate. Had you thought if that?
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Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #304 on: January 01, 2018, 01:14:00 PM »
Moderator:

Maeght is correct: this thread is about the contents of the NT and not astronomy or celestial mechanics.

So, having slapped myself on the wrist for getting involved in the derail, I think that any discussion on lunar origins should be elsewhere (probably on the 'Science' Board).

Maybe you should post your link there, Spud.

jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #305 on: January 01, 2018, 06:58:53 PM »
If the big bang was anything like the one that woke me up last night, then it was a state of high entropy. Otherwise it needs a different name.
Incorrect. The bang you heard was caused by the rapid expansion of burning gases. It's a manifestation of the transition of something from a low entropy to a high entropy state.

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Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #306 on: January 06, 2018, 02:47:26 PM »
The Iliad is fiction.
Neither could the supernatural events described in the Gospels.
Which eye witnesses were still alive when each of the gospels were written. The time period in question is ~70CE to ~90CE. Give evidence for your claims.

Where is your evidence that any of these people were still alive when the gospels were written.
5,000 people witnessed the death and resurrection of Gerald my pet hamster. You need to start worshipping him now.
I am going back to this post because we diverted to the witnesses to Saul's experience on the road to Damascus and then somehow onto celestial mechanics. We had a very good talk at church before Christmas, on Luke 1, the story of Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist.
As I said, the Iliad was probably written centuries after the events it was based on. Luke, however introduces us to his first eyewitness in 1:5, "In the time of Herod king of Judah there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wide Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron." Note here the historical context (Herod, king of Judah) and the family tree of both John's parents. Luke is telling Theophilus exactly who the eyewitness is. That this is a real eyewitness is evident because he avoids boasting about meeting an angel, confessing that he didn't believe his message, which if someone had made a false claim, would be unlikely.
Now the person giving the sermon called attention to verse 3 where Luke says that he had investigated everything from the beginning. Thus, to answer to your question, eyewitnesses handed down the things that had been fulfilled among them, and Luke has investigated everything so that Theophilus could be sure of what he had been taught.

ippy

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #307 on: January 06, 2018, 04:28:35 PM »
I am going back to this post because we diverted to the witnesses to Saul's experience on the road to Damascus and then somehow onto celestial mechanics. We had a very good talk at church before Christmas, on Luke 1, the story of Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist.
As I said, the Iliad was probably written centuries after the events it was based on. Luke, however introduces us to his first eyewitness in 1:5, "In the time of Herod king of Judah there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wide Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron." Note here the historical context (Herod, king of Judah) and the family tree of both John's parents. Luke is telling Theophilus exactly who the eyewitness is. That this is a real eyewitness is evident because he avoids boasting about meeting an angel, confessing that he didn't believe his message, which if someone had made a false claim, would be unlikely.
Now the person giving the sermon called attention to verse 3 where Luke says that he had investigated everything from the beginning. Thus, to answer to your question, eyewitnesses handed down the things that had been fulfilled among them, and Luke has investigated everything so that Theophilus could be sure of what he had been taught.

If you've got someone telling you about his encounter with an angel on the road, wouldn't you feel a bit like saying yes It was very similar for me when I bumped into Elvis earlier on the other week.

Regards ippy

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #308 on: January 06, 2018, 06:02:35 PM »
We had a very good talk at church before Christmas, on Luke 1, the story of Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist.

No doubt: do you think the congregation might be unduly inclined to accept what the NT claims without assessing the risks of mistakes or lies?

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Luke, however introduces us to his first eyewitness in 1:5, "In the time of Herod king of Judah there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wide Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron." Note here the historical context (Herod, king of Judah) and the family tree of both John's parents. Luke is telling Theophilus exactly who the eyewitness is.

So what? Anyone can reference a real person (assuming this Zechariah was a real person for the sake of argument) and claim they were wherever and saw whatever: and they could be telling the truth, they could be wrong is some or all aspects or they could be lying - how would you check their story after all this time?
 
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That this is a real eyewitness is evident because he avoids boasting about meeting an angel, confessing that he didn't believe his message, which if someone had made a false claim, would be unlikely.

No Spud: your gullibility is getting the better of you.

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Now the person giving the sermon called attention to verse 3 where Luke says that he had investigated everything from the beginning. Thus, to answer to your question, eyewitnesses handed down the things that had been fulfilled among them, and Luke has investigated everything so that Theophilus could be sure of what he had been taught.

So the story goes: ever heard of confirmation bias?

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #309 on: January 07, 2018, 08:33:14 AM »
I am going back to this post because we diverted to the witnesses to Saul's experience on the road to Damascus and then somehow onto celestial mechanics. We had a very good talk at church before Christmas, on Luke 1, the story of Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist.
As I said, the Iliad was probably written centuries after the events it was based on. Luke, however introduces us to his first eyewitness in 1:5, "In the time of Herod king of Judah there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wide Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron." Note here the historical context (Herod, king of Judah) and the family tree of both John's parents. Luke is telling Theophilus exactly who the eyewitness is. That this is a real eyewitness is evident because he avoids boasting about meeting an angel, confessing that he didn't believe his message, which if someone had made a false claim, would be unlikely.
Now the person giving the sermon called attention to verse 3 where Luke says that he had investigated everything from the beginning. Thus, to answer to your question, eyewitnesses handed down the things that had been fulfilled among them, and Luke has investigated everything so that Theophilus could be sure of what he had been taught.

I know I have brought up the Angel of Mons story many times but it makes a good point. So called 'eye witnesses' claim to have seen the angel even though it was only story, not a real event.

Robbie

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #310 on: January 07, 2018, 11:21:43 AM »
Good point Littleroses, a charming work of fiction which became a legend which some believed to be true. I think I'd have liked to believe in that legend, the imagery is so beautiful.

(You'd be surprised how many people believe in angels though, LR, not the 'heavenly host' as described in the Bible or Qu'ran but other types of supernatural beings who can be called upon in times of need - money to be made out of contacting angels on someone else's behalf and relaying messages. Reminds me of spiritualism, duping the gullible. Shudder.)
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #311 on: January 07, 2018, 11:24:41 AM »
My mother in law has a parking angel dedicated to finding easy places to park.

Robbie

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floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #313 on: January 07, 2018, 11:43:19 AM »
Good point Littleroses, a charming work of fiction which became a legend which some believed to be true. I think I'd have liked to believe in that legend, the imagery is so beautiful.

(You'd be surprised how many people believe in angels though, LR, not the 'heavenly host' as described in the Bible or Qu'ran but other types of supernatural beings who can be called upon in times of need - money to be made out of contacting angels on someone else's behalf and relaying messages. Reminds me of spiritualism, duping the gullible. Shudder.)

Nothing surprises me anymore. However, on the subject of angels I had a weird encounter once when I was about 11 or 12. I decided to go fishing off the rocks in my home island, I didn't tell my parents as I knew they wouldn't approve. I had a fishing line with a safety pin attached. I was so busy trying to catch something I didn't pay any heed to the tide, which was coming in, until I discovered I was on a rock about 4ft from the others and I would need to jump across to take myself to safety. The currents are strong in that part of the island and if I had fallen in I probably would have drowned. Suddenly a man appeared beside me, without saying a word he picked me up and jumped across the gap with me. I turned to thank him, but he was nowhere to be seen. To this day I still cannot work out where he came from or where he went to without me seeing him come and go. Maybe I do have a guardian angel, and if so he must be on Prozac the stress he will have encountered over the past nearly 68 years keeping me from killing myself with all my daft stunts.

I wrote this a few years ago. I hope I am forgiven for putting it on the forum again. I have had a few more little 'adventures' since I wrote it. ::)

My Guardian Angel is on Prozac!
[/b]

Throughout my 65 years on this planet I have managed to get myself into potentially life threatening situations! I list some of the low-lights!

I was born on the Channel Island of Guernsey in 1950. For the first three months of my life I failed to thrive as I was allergic to the milk formula and I lost a lot of weight. Fortunately, and just in the nick of time, it was discovered that goat’s milk did the business for me!

1952 was rather perilous for yours truly. I managed to fall into a large pond and was on the brink of gasping my last when fished out!

A horse attached to a cart, which was standing on our drive, bolted when frightened by a low flying aircraft. I was approaching the horse at the time! Auntie Myra, a very brave lady, now in her late 90s, who was packing tomatoes in our shed, heard the commotion, ran towards me and the horse, and miraculously saved my bacon!

My childhood proceeded with many thrills and spills.  I twice fell 14 ft out of tree I was forbidden to climb!

When I was ten when I discovered some ordnance in our attic left over from the German occupation of WW2. The sky fell in when my parents discovered me kicking around a green, pineapple shaped object! The grenade was still live!

My uncles owned a cabin cruiser on which we often sailed around the smaller islands off Guernsey. On one particular trip I was walking along the catwalk of the boat when it heeled over in a sudden squall, if my father hadn’t instantly grabbed me I would have ended up in Davy Jones’ locker!

At seventeen I passed my driving test in Guernsey. Later that year, when I visited my aunt in the UK, she allowed me to borrow her car. I had never encountered a roundabout before and managed to go around it the wrong way! Other startled road users took avoiding action and I was shaken, but no harm was done!


Many years later in St Neots, Cambridgeshire, where I was then living with my husband and children, I was in the town when I came across the local bag lady being cruelly harassed by some yobs! Pulling myself up to my full 5’ 2.5’’ I waded in and demanded they left her alone. For a long minute there was a menacing silence, and I thought they were going to attack me, fortunately they thought better of it and using a few unpleasant expletives they went on their way!

When we moved to North Wales in 1990 the property in which we were living was next to an untamed stretch of the original Offa’s Dyke. To this day I have no idea what possessed me, but I decided to walk up the middle of the Dyke, which was like a narrow gorge and quite steep. I was only wearing shorts and T shirt, and had stupidly told no one of my intentions. I managed to get to the middle and found I could get no further, but was unable to get back the way I had come either. All the brambles and briars had closed in on me!  The only way was up! After an hour of slipping and sliding I arrived at the top in a sorry state. I was cut to ribbons by the brambles, branches and stones, which was no less than I deserved for my stupidity!

2002 was a year I won’t forget in a hurry! I was walking in the river meadow next to our Welsh farmhouse, it is undulating and I didn’t notice the 50 bullocks grazing there until too late. A low flying plane startled them and they all stampeded in my direction! I reckon I must have run the first 10 second mile in history as I outran them and vaulted over a convenient stile. My left arthritic ankle has never been right since!

About a month later, on a visit to our middle daughter and family in Milton Keynes, I was taken ill with appendicitis. I insisted that my husband drove me through the night all the way to our local hospital in Wrexham, in which I had confidence. My appendix was removed on the point of bursting, according to the surgeon!

In 2006 we were again visiting our middle daughter who lives on a canal boat, when I hit my head on the hatch. A few days later I found myself in A&E with delayed concussion!

In October 2008 I was taking a walk in the river meadow beside our house when I missed my footing. I tumbled three feet down the bank face down in a bramble and briar patch, which actually broke my fall, another three feet and I would have been in the river, which has some unpleasant looking rocks, which break the surface at that point! I am not sure how I got back up the bank as I was so tangled up! Somehow I managed it, but my face was badly scratched, and I was picking thorns out of my anatomy for the next few months! I ached like crazy and the fall hadn’t done my arthritic joints many favours either.

No wonder my guardian angel is on Prozac and threatening to give in his notice!

RJG

   

Robbie

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #314 on: January 07, 2018, 12:23:05 PM »
Amazing, LR. Inexplicable things do happen to us at times, often when we need comfort the most. I've not had an experience like your fishing one, nothing so tangible.
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floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #315 on: January 07, 2018, 01:57:59 PM »
Amazing, LR. Inexplicable things do happen to us at times, often when we need comfort the most. I've not had an experience like your fishing one, nothing so tangible.

I just don't know how I managed it, but yesterday I spoilt my ravishing beauty. ;D I now have a large deep scratch all down the right side of my face. You will never guess how I did that! I was putting my husband's daily tablet collection together for the coming week, when  my face somehow connected with the very sharp metal case of his Sodium Valporate tablets. I should sue myself for not concentrating properly! ;D


ippy

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #316 on: January 07, 2018, 03:12:49 PM »
I just don't know how I managed it, but yesterday I spoilt my ravishing beauty. ;D I now have a large deep scratch all down the right side of my face. You will never guess how I did that! I was putting my husband's daily tablet collection together for the coming week, when  my face somehow connected with the very sharp metal case of his Sodium Valporate tablets. I should sue myself for not concentrating properly! ;D

This is always happening with Sodium Valporate tablets, did you read the paperwork that comes with the tablets?

Regards ippy

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #317 on: January 07, 2018, 03:18:32 PM »
This is always happening with Sodium Valporate tablets, did you read the paperwork that comes with the tablets?

Regards ippy

I didn't see anything about scratching yourself on the packaging! ::)

Oh dear this thread has got way off topic. As the naughty stair is hard on the botty please MODS may I have a soft cushion to ease the pain when I am made to sit on it? ;D
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 03:21:42 PM by Littleroses »

ippy

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #318 on: January 07, 2018, 06:13:09 PM »
I didn't see anything about scratching yourself on the packaging! ::)

Oh dear this thread has got way off topic. As the naughty stair is hard on the botty please MODS may I have a soft cushion to ease the pain when I am made to sit on it? ;D

Sorry L R, I've got a more silly day than usual.

Regards ippy

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #319 on: January 08, 2018, 04:51:47 PM »
Saturday was a particularly unlucky day for me, went to check on Samson my nephew's hamster and found he had escaped. Later on Sunday night heard noises coming from the airing cupboard where he had decided to climb through a hole and vanish under the floorboards. I actually had a word with God about this and God decided to send him back.  He came up for food later on and I shone a torch at him before catching him.

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #320 on: January 08, 2018, 05:01:36 PM »
Saturday was a particularly unlucky day for me, went to check on Samson my nephew's hamster and found he had escaped. Later on Sunday night heard noises coming from the airing cupboard where he had decided to climb through a hole and vanish under the floorboards. I actually had a word with God about this and God decided to send him back.  He came up for food later on and I shone a torch at him before catching him.

Can't decide if this is a wind-up or not, Spud.

No matter: do you not think the wee fella might have got hungry irrespective of anything you did? 

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #321 on: January 08, 2018, 05:14:43 PM »
Saturday was a particularly unlucky day for me, went to check on Samson my nephew's hamster and found he had escaped. Later on Sunday night heard noises coming from the airing cupboard where he had decided to climb through a hole and vanish under the floorboards. I actually had a word with God about this and God decided to send him back.  He came up for food later on and I shone a torch at him before catching him.

If you aren't having a 'larf', which I suspect you are not, then what does that say about your god?

wigginhall

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #322 on: January 08, 2018, 05:17:57 PM »
You've heard of the God of small things?   Here he is, hard at work. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #323 on: January 08, 2018, 05:53:31 PM »
OK, I have often wondered if Spud was genuine, this last has decided me that he isn't.

Robbie

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #324 on: January 08, 2018, 06:02:03 PM »
Saturday was a particularly unlucky day for me, went to check on Samson my nephew's hamster and found he had escaped. Later on Sunday night heard noises coming from the airing cupboard where he had decided to climb through a hole and vanish under the floorboards. I actually had a word with God about this and God decided to send him back.  He came up for food later on and I shone a torch at him before catching him.

Wind up or not, it's a charming story with a happy ending. I share your joy. Had I been looking after someone else's hamster and it escaped, I'd have had kittens!  The kittens no doubt would have found him but the ending been less happy.
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