Alfie Evans - More tragedy exploited?

[Rhiannon]

Yeah, because this helps loads.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/23/alfie-evans-european-court-human-rights-life-support

Isn’t it time the hospital sought an injunction against the protests? And wtf would the ‘protestors’ have done had they succeeded in storming the hospital?

[Robbie]

I feel desperately sorry for Alfie's young parents who are really being exploited.
Which is where we came in.

[Gordon]

He's been awarded Italian citizenship, which adds a twist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-4387267

[Nearly Sane]

He's been awarded Italian citizenship, which adds a twist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-4387267

More exploitation. Italian govt playing politics with a child.

[Gordon]

More exploitation. Italian govt playing politics with a child.

Yep: and utterly sick. The last couple of lines in this, by Burns, come to mind.

Many and sharp the num'rous ills
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, –
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!

[Nearly Sane]

Apparently the baby has been taken off life support and is now breathing on his own. I thought he couldn't breath without the life support?

People on life support can quite frequently breathe for some time on their own off of life support but in the longer time would be unlikely to, and have needed to have been put on life support because of previous problems.

[Udayana]

So is he suffering more or less than when on life support? Shouldn't it be ended? What is in the best interests of the child?

[Nearly Sane]

So is he suffering more or less than when on life support? Shouldn't it be ended? What is in the best interests of the child?

Not quite sure by the question of 'Shouldn't it be ended?' - are you talking about some for of active ending? I think what you think is in the best interest of the child are going to be dependent on your view on life and what makes it worthwhile. As in the case of Charlie Gard, I feel enormous sympathy for all involved but I struggle with what any judge is likely to go through on this. It's a hellish decision to make.

[Udayana]

Since they have appointed themselves as the best judges of what is in the child's interest, they are responsible for any continued or, indeed, increased suffering.

[Nearly Sane]

Since they have appointed themselves as the best judges of what is in the child's interest, they are responsible for any continued or, indeed, increased suffering.

Eh? I think you may have misread my post. Any judge making a legal decision here has not appointed themselves.

[Rhiannon]

I don’t know how this works but it sounds like a child is breathing unaided but then will end up fighting for breath before dying. That sounds like suffering to me. I’m assuming that sedation is available but not enough to end life, and as this is a child there may be an erring on the side of caution.

‘Letting nature take its course’ is a grim option.

[Rhiannon]

Eh? I think you may have misread my post. Any judge making a legal decision here has not appointed themselves.

But they think they are competent to judge. Otherwise they would absent themselves from the position. There’s an element of self-appointment there.

[Nearly Sane]

But they think they are competent to judge. Otherwise they would absent themselves from the position. There’s an element of self-appointment there.

And what if they absent tthemselves? A decision needs to be made but they back away from their job?

[Rhiannon]

And what if they absent tthemselves? A decision needs to be made but they back away from their job?

If they accept the job then they are saying that they are competent to make life and death judgements. Nothing wrong with that on that someone has to - in fact I admire their courage in doing so - but by stepping up there is an element of self appointment there. Otherwise they’d walk away.

[Nearly Sane]

If they accept the job then they are saying that they are competent to make life and death judgements. Nothing wrong with that on that someone has to - in fact I admire their courage in doing so - but by stepping up there is an element of self appointment there. Otherwise they’d walk away.

I doubt they think this sort of decision is going to happen. It's a very very unusual judgement to make. It only happens in the disputes but the agreements which are by far the most common cases.  While we have discussed Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans on hers, hundreds of children in circumstances not dissimilar will have died with the agreement of the medical staff and parents. None of those decisions already or even palatable.

But waking away is also a decision. Being the final arbiter in cases like this because it's the position you end up in is nothing you expect or think about when you become a judge. It's a very very very case.


None of that means I don't have the utmost sympathy for everyone in solved here. 

[SusanDoris]

I heard an interview on PM just now with the lawyer - American working for that, in my opinion, ghastly group calling themselves something with the word Christian in the title - and cringed.

[Nearly Sane]

I heard an interview on PM just now with the lawyer - American working for that, in my opinion, ghastly group calling themselves something with the word Christian in the title - and cringed.

Isn't that just bigotted?

[Udayana]

Eh? I think you may have misread my post. Any judge making a legal decision here has not appointed themselves.

I meant the state and court system rather than any particular judge.

It seems to be a case where there is no rational basis on which a decision can be made, and it is ultimately an emotional one  - as in many other cases which do not get to court.

[Nearly Sane]

I meant the state and court system rather than any particular judge.

It seems to be a case where there is no rational basis on which a decision can be made, and it is ultimately an emotional one  - as in many other cases which do not get to court.

That makes no more sense. Surely it's that we as a society have to have a method abstractions are made. The state and court system is just us.

[Rhiannon]

And another appeal.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/24/alfie-evans-breathing-unassisted-for-nine-hours-says-father

[Harrowby Hall]

But they think they are competent to judge. Otherwise they would absent themselves from the position. There’s an element of self-appointment there.

Do you know what a judge does? Do you really think that a judge can walk away from a case?

You may be interested in the discussion involving a former High Court judge and a parent who had a seriously ill child in  The World at One today. It talks place about 10 minutes into the programme.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zt3fv

[Steve H]

I don’t know how this works but it sounds like a child is breathing unaided but then will end up fighting for breath before dying. That sounds like suffering to me. I’m assuming that sedation is available but not enough to end life, and as this is a child there may be an erring on the side of caution.

‘Letting nature take its course’ is a grim option.

As long as euthanasia is illegal, it's that or nothing, apart from "double effect", mentioned earlier.

[Udayana]

That makes no more sense. Surely it's that we as a society have to have a method abstractions are made. The state and court system is just us.

damn ... I must remember not to tick the "Make sick babies suffer longer" box next time.

[Udayana]

Do you know what a judge does? Do you really think that a judge can walk away from a case?

You may be interested in the discussion involving a former High Court judge and a parent who had a seriously ill child in  The World at One today. It talks place about 10 minutes into the programme.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zt3fv

Didn't they include another case where a sick child survived being taken off life support for quite a long time?

[Harrowby Hall]

Didn't they include another case where a sick child survived being taken off life support for quite a long time?

Yes.

As I said "a parent who had a seriously ill child".