Why hate feminism?

[Steve H]

I'm sympathetic to moderate feminism, but I can see Humph's point. It has occurred to me before now that feminism cuts across the usual left-wing groupings. As Humph says, a working class woman has more in common with aworking-class man than with a posh, rich woman, who is exploiting her economically to some extent.

[jeremyp]

You want to split the working class political movement based upon gender,

My definition does not say that. My definition, in fact says the opposite.

and you think that is reasonable?

I think your definition is definitely unreasonable.

[jeremyp]

Oh dear. What has giving oral sex got to do with the discussion?

You don't pay attention to the news then.

The only female colleagues of mine who were paid less then me in my forty year working career were my workplace subordinates, and I have had many female bosses who were paid more than me.

Well I congratulate your employer for not being discriminatory towards women.

As for being treated like an object, I have mentioned my violent and spiteful ex in other discussions, it ain't just a female thing.

Unlucky you. Nearly twice as many women suffer from domestic abuse as men.

I do not accept that every female has to put up with sex discrimination every day of her life, any more than I accept that every ethnic minority person faces racial discrimination every day of their life.

Just because you can find a few examples that do not fit the general trend doesn't mean the trend does not exist.

Quite frankly for you to claim the former, puts you on the same level as the ludicrous Bahar Mustafa and her "kill all white men!" request.

Quite frankly you are talking out of your arse.

[Robbie]

I'm sympathetic to moderate feminism, but I can see Humph's point. It has occurred to me before now that feminism cuts across the usual left-wing groupings. As Humph says, a working class woman has more in common with aworking-class man than with a posh, rich woman, who is exploiting her economically to some extent.

I'm glad someone can see Humph's pov which he is entitled to and it can't be much fun when everyone appears to be against you. How you have explained it is far easier too.

Don't agree with you though. For a start a 'posh' rich woman who exploited another person economically would not be a feminist. Yes a 'working class' woman would have lots in common with a man from similar background, not much doubt about that but no reason to suppose she has nothing of note in common with women who are better off. It's actually rather demeaning to assume she wouldn't.

Some attitudes displayed here are, frankly, anachronistic. I'm not so naive as to be unaware of class distinction, it exists and I abhor it but people in our society are far more economically and socially mobile than in the days of the hunger marchers. The Equal Opportunities Act and, later, the Equality Act have been instrumental in helping to make society fairer. Still a way to go, we learn from history but no need to be stuck in it.

How often does anyone really dwell on 'class'? People are people. Being resentful and defensive towards those better off or believing one should stick to their own 'class' is sheer snobbery. It's also hurtful & bewildering to be on the receiving end.

[jeremyp]

I don't understand what all this "having things in common" stuff has to do with feminism. Back in the early 90's I worked with a woman who is still a friend. We did more or less the same job and she was at least as good at is as I was. Unquestionably, she had more in common with me than with women in poverty or extremely rich women, but that doesn't alter the fact that (and I only found this out a couple of years ago) she was being paid far less than me.

Feminism says that a woman doing the same job at the same standard as a man should be being rewarded the same amount. That doesn't seem like dividing the genders to me.

[Udayana]

I don't understand what all this "having things in common" stuff has to do with feminism. Back in the early 90's I worked with a woman who is still a friend. We did more or less the same job and she was at least as good at is as I was. Unquestionably, she had more in common with me than with women in poverty or extremely rich women, but that doesn't alter the fact that (and I only found this out a couple of years ago) she was being paid far less than me.

Feminism says that a woman doing the same job at the same standard as a man should be being rewarded the same amount. That doesn't seem like dividing the genders to me.

In the same way anti-racism says that any persons doing the same job at the same standard should be rewarded the same amount; anti-classism says that any persons doing the same job at the same standard should be rewarded the same amount, similarly for religion and ethnicity - so clearly a focus on feminism could divide or even thwart efforts in the other areas.

But the whole thing is academic as: there is no good way of deciding who is doing a given job at the same standard at the same pay - especially as pay and perks are not publicly disclosed. Also, the whole idea is subverted by the gender equality paradox - as women gain equality in status and pay, they tend to move to, traditionally, women's careers and stereotypical outlooks eg. apply less for STEM subjects.
   

 

[jeremyp]

In the same way anti-racism says that any persons doing the same job at the same standard should be rewarded the same amount; anti-classism says that any persons doing the same job at the same standard should be rewarded the same amount, similarly for religion and ethnicity - so clearly a focus on feminism could divide or even thwart efforts in the other areas.

How?

Two people doing the same job to the same standard should be rewarded equally no matter what their race, gender or class is.

But the whole thing is academic as: there is no good way of deciding who is doing a given job at the same standard at the same pay - especially as pay and perks are not publicly disclosed. Also, the whole idea is subverted by the gender equality paradox - as women gain equality in status and pay, they tend to move to, traditionally, women's careers and stereotypical outlooks eg. apply less for STEM subjects.
   

Why are there stereotypical female and male jobs? Don’t you think it’s all part of the same problem?

[Udayana]

How?

Two people doing the same job to the same standard should be rewarded equally no matter what their race, gender or class is.

Of-course, that is a fair objective to have. The schemes to bring this about though require that people of disadvantaged race, gender or class actually get into those jobs first - so the schemes can end up in  competition, or bypassed completely by a company appointing a black disabled woman to the board and making no other changes.   

Why are there stereotypical female and male jobs? Don’t you think it’s all part of the same problem?

Well there are, because women, often for cultural or historical reasons, may not have the same interests as men. This does not mean that both should not be rewarded with equal pay and power:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05y9hpq

There are quite a few other articles on the 'paradox' too.