Author Topic: Matthean priority  (Read 1505 times)

Littleroses

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #100 on: May 18, 2019, 08:34:54 AM »
Regarding which gospel came first, I think the way to find out is to compare sections common to them and look for signs of one author clarifying something the other has said. The section on the rich young ruler looks to me as though Mark has corrected Matthew on his point about what someone who has left everything to follow Jesus will inherit and when (in this life and in the age to come).

Leaving everything to follow that guy Jesus is NOT a virtue but plain stupidity, especially if it means leaving your family and responsibilities.
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Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #101 on: May 18, 2019, 08:44:24 AM »
I can imagine Peter using Matthew's gospel to preach from. Since he is addressing non-Jews, he doesn't quote the Old Testament as much as Matthew. So as not to give the impression to the people listening that he is just reading Matthew, he would add details from his own memory.

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2019, 09:15:26 AM »
Leaving everything to follow that guy Jesus is NOT a virtue but plain stupidity, especially if it means leaving your family and responsibilities.
My sister did and found a great husband, having not had a single boyfriend in 37 years apart from one fling at university.

Littleroses

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2019, 11:30:57 AM »
My sister did and found a great husband, having not had a single boyfriend in 37 years apart from one fling at university.

I won't comment about your sibling, as I know nothing about her or the man she married. I will say that when I 'gave my heart to Jesus', as a child it was not a good experience, and a relief when I lost my faith.   
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Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #104 on: May 18, 2019, 12:11:40 PM »
I won't comment about your sibling, as I know nothing about her or the man she married. I will say that when I 'gave my heart to Jesus', as a child it was not a good experience, and a relief when I lost my faith.
It does say in Mark's version that alongside the new family/friends and stuff you get, there is persecution. So I could see how losing faith would be a relief.

Littleroses

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #105 on: May 18, 2019, 12:35:50 PM »
It does say in Mark's version that alongside the new family/friends and stuff you get, there is persecution. So I could see how losing faith would be a relief.


I was lambasted for losing my faith!
“Our life’s imprint should not be a blot on the landscape.” RJG

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #106 on: May 18, 2019, 12:44:13 PM »

I was lambasted for losing my faith!
Just curious, why was believing a bad experience, when you did believe?

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #107 on: May 18, 2019, 12:45:30 PM »
Maybe you gave your heart to Jesus without actually believing?

Littleroses

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #108 on: May 18, 2019, 01:41:52 PM »
Maybe you gave your heart to Jesus without actually believing?


I believed in it at the time, until the doubts came during my teenage years.
“Our life’s imprint should not be a blot on the landscape.” RJG

jeremyp

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #109 on: May 18, 2019, 08:09:38 PM »
I read somewhere (I can't find it) that Matthew's gospel has been edited four times. What I don't know is whether the person who said this thought that included the process of translating it into Greek.
It was not written in Hebrew. Apparently, the experts can tell that it is an originally Greek document. For one thing, if it had been written in Hebrew and translated, we would expect to find many more varied versions. 

Also, it's based on Mark and Mark is written in Greek.
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Walter

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #110 on: May 18, 2019, 10:13:59 PM »
It was not written in Hebrew. Apparently, the experts can tell that it is an originally Greek document. For one thing, if it had been written in Hebrew and translated, we would expect to find many more varied versions. 

Also, it's based on Mark and Mark is written in Greek.
of course it's obviously a Greek document .There's an advert for the Acropolis restaurant in the top right corner . obvs!

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #111 on: May 19, 2019, 05:36:04 PM »
It was not written in Hebrew. Apparently, the experts can tell that it is an originally Greek document. For one thing, if it had been written in Hebrew and translated, we would expect to find many more varied versions. 

Also, it's based on Mark and Mark is written in Greek.
Would you agree that the grammar in Mark is odd, almost as though it's a poor translation of something, or a deliberately messy use of verb tenses?

Steve H

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #112 on: May 20, 2019, 04:17:23 AM »
Would you agree that the grammar in Mark is odd, almost as though it's a poor translation of something, or a deliberately messy use of verb tenses?
Or originally written in Greek by someone who didn't know the language perfectly?
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jeremyp

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #113 on: May 20, 2019, 08:46:26 PM »
Would you agree that the grammar in Mark is odd, almost as though it's a poor translation of something, or a deliberately messy use of verb tenses?
It’s generally agreed that the language of Mark is unsophisticated. I’ve not heard the hypothesis that it is a direct translation before but I’m not going to dismiss that idea. However, if your hypothesis is correct, it is evidence for Markan priority.
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Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #114 on: Today at 12:01:30 AM »
For the record, Matthew sometimes uses the present tense when it ought to be past tense.

Steve H

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #115 on: Today at 05:47:34 AM »
For the record, Matthew sometimes uses the present tense when it ought to be past tense.
So do you, judging by that post!
I thought Wanking was a town in China until I discovered Smirnoff.

jeremyp

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #116 on: Today at 12:44:00 PM »
So do you, judging by that post!

That's a good one, but the historic present tense is a thing.

Edit: also your post should have said "so did you..."
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Steve H

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #117 on: Today at 12:57:25 PM »
That's a good one, but the historic present tense is a thing.

Edit: also your post should have said "so did you..."
"...do you...", meaning you are in the habit of doing.
I thought Wanking was a town in China until I discovered Smirnoff.

jeremyp

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #118 on: Today at 01:42:03 PM »
"...do you...", meaning you are in the habit of doing.
Do you have the prescient ability to know that spud is going to continue using the historic present after your admonishment?
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Steve H

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #119 on: Today at 01:50:45 PM »
Do you have the prescient ability to know that spud is going to continue using the historic present after your admonishment?
No; that's why I added "...judging by that post".
I thought Wanking was a town in China until I discovered Smirnoff.

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #120 on: Today at 03:52:27 PM »
"1Then come unto Jesus do they from Jerusalem — scribes and Pharisees — saying," Mat. 15:1 Young's Literal Translation

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #121 on: Today at 04:11:54 PM »
Quote
You will often come across in commentaries remarks to the effect that Mark's use of the historical present tense is somehow a vulgar use of Greek which is eliminated by Matthew and Luke as more refined masters of Greek writing style.....

...the great classical Greek historian Thucydides uses the historical present in his own writings.... If the great classical Greek historian used the historical present, are we maybe being a bit too hasty in labeling Mark's use of the historical present as a "rough" or "inferior" Greek style of writing?....

Some questions come to mind. Is Mark's use of the historical present a valuable way for his gospel to bring Jesus into the present of our lives? Are we experiencing the ministry of Jesus again in the present at the same time that we read or hear the gospel read to us? These are theological and philosophical questions that we can ponder fruitfully.

https://sites.google.com/site/sobrinosynopticgospels/historical-present