Author Topic: Unconditional surrender...?  (Read 2250 times)

ippy

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #125 on: December 04, 2019, 09:52:31 AM »
But that is bizarre reverse engineering.

If you didn't know that the sculpture was based on a photo (that you also didn't know existed) why on earth would you go googling to work out what photo is was based on. It makes no sense.

In order to make the notion of googling the link with the photo have any sense you'd need to already know there was a link to a photo.

I seems bizarre to me when someone is sitting there and sees an article like this one via the forum whilst surfing the P C or perhaps laptop and then to start going, into one, (the well known phrase, 'going into one'), before checking the facts on the P C or laptop the surfer already has in operation right there in front of them self.

Lots of the posts are mislead by the misleading name/title given to the sculpture, are rather ill informed and are also radiating a rather misguided puritanical tone that seems to me way over the top.

Maybe the sculptor gave it that title/name in order to bring his works to notice, strange because probably like your good self Proff, I've never heard of anyone ever doing this kind of thing before either.

Regards, ippy

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #126 on: December 04, 2019, 09:54:08 AM »
If you didn't know what the sculpture was based on, you wouldn't know that the kiss portrayed wasn't fully consensual.
I don't think you need to understand the background to realise that the kiss is extremely one-sided. The body language screams non consensual to me. The if you read the title of the piece that impression is reinforced.

ippy

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #127 on: December 04, 2019, 09:58:40 AM »
I don't think you need to understand the background to realise that the kiss is extremely one-sided. The body language screams non consensual to me. The if you read the title of the piece that impression is reinforced.

This reply looks to me you've missed something I have written in my post.

ippy

Wilkins Micawber

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #128 on: December 04, 2019, 10:01:51 AM »
I don't think you need to understand the background to realise that the kiss is extremely one-sided. The body language screams non consensual to me. The if you read the title of the piece that impression is reinforced.
"Surrender" implies voluntariness. One chooses to surrender.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #129 on: December 04, 2019, 10:07:19 AM »
I seems bizarre to me when someone is sitting there and sees an article like this one via the forum whilst surfing the P C or perhaps laptop and then to start going, into one, (the well known phrase, 'going into one'), before checking the facts on the P C or laptop the surfer already has in operation right there in front of them self.
And your point is exactly?

Lots of the posts are mislead by the misleading name/title given to the sculpture, are rather ill informed and are also radiating a rather misguided puritanical tone that seems to me way over the top.
The title of the sculpture is what it is - in this case 'Unconditional surrender' - that along with the sculpture itself will provoke a reaction amongst people who see it. I understand that people who know the context and background will recognise it to be a recreation of a photo and that 'Unconditional surrender' is probably meant to refer to the surrender of Japan on VJ day, although the title is much more oblique than the title of the photo 'VJ day in Times square'.

However as I've pointed out many, if not most, people wont know the context and there is nothing in the sculpture and its name which overtly links it to VJ day. Those people are likely to come to a different interpretation of its meaning based on the sculpture and its name alone.

In neither case is referring to the viewer as 'ill informed' appropriate. A piece of art shouldn't require the viewer to have delved into its background to understand and have a response to it. If it is likely to be misinterpreted without that background then it is the role of the artist and those responsible for its installation to provide background at the sculpture site to counter that misinterpretation.

Maybe the sculptor gave it that title/name in order to bring his works to notice, strange because probably like your good self Proff, I've never heard of anyone ever doing this kind of thing before either.
Perhaps that is what the artist intended - a modern take on something that might once have been seen to be acceptable but now isn't. A rye and political message for our times. However looking at his other pieces I doubt this to be the case as this and his other pieces tend to err on the side of kitsch rather than political.

ippy

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #130 on: December 04, 2019, 10:09:08 AM »
"Surrender" implies voluntariness. One chooses to surrender.

Nice one, a good bit of semantic work there Steve.

Regards, ippy.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #131 on: December 04, 2019, 10:10:08 AM »
"Surrender" implies voluntariness. One chooses to surrender.
You surrender unconditionally when you have no reasonable alternative choice - usually in the face of overwhelming force that you cannot counter. Consent requires a choice to me made freely - it is not consensual if you allow someone to kiss you because you don't have the strength to force them off you.

Wilkins Micawber

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #132 on: December 04, 2019, 10:23:56 AM »
it is not consensual if you allow someone to kiss you because you don't have the strength to force them off you.
But she is obviously not trying to resist - and that is not victim-blaming, whatever NS may claim. Why should she resist, if she doesn't want to? Besides, since we don't know for certain who they are (a number of people have claimed to be one or the other of them?, we don't know that it was non-consensual. He may have said "May I?" beforehand, or there may have been a bit of non-verbal negotiation.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #133 on: December 04, 2019, 10:45:22 AM »
But she is obviously not trying to resist - and that is not victim-blaming, whatever NS may claim.
It is exactly victim blaming. Just because someone doesn't resist that doesn't mean they consent.

And actually if you look at the photo series (there is more than one) there is evidence that she is trying to resist and get away from him. First her hand is clenched in a fist (not something someone enjoying a consensual kiss would be likely to do). Secondly in a further photo, presumably a second or so later, she'd got that arm with the clenched fist up against his face trying to push him away. Her whole strange body posture is of a person trying to extract themselves from the situation.

Littleroses

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #134 on: December 04, 2019, 10:50:13 AM »
The photo didn't look consensual to me, the poor woman looks as if she is being forced into that position.
Let your sorrows travel away on the wind, your joys ride on the clouds and your love mingle with the sunbeams. RJG

Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #135 on: December 04, 2019, 10:51:35 AM »
But she is obviously not trying to resist - and that is not victim-blaming, whatever NS may claim. Why should she resist, if she doesn't want to? Besides, since we don't know for certain who they are (a number of people have claimed to be one or the other of them?, we don't know that it was non-consensual. He may have said "May I?" beforehand, or there may have been a bit of non-verbal negotiation.
And as already quoted she has said she didn't consent. And when you say it isn't victim blaming, it's precisely the same type of victim blaming which attacks those assaulted didn't fight enough. She was a 21 year old woman who describes the shock and the fact that he seemed so strong. But on you go with your antediluvian misogyny.

Littleroses

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #136 on: December 04, 2019, 10:56:08 AM »
And as already quoted she has said she didn't consent. And when you say it isn't victim blaming, it's precisely the same type of victim blaming which attacks those assaulted didn't fight enough. She was a 21 year old woman who describes the shock and the fact that he seemed so strong. But on you go with your antediluvian misogyny.

Good post NS, with which I completely agree.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 11:29:04 AM by Littleroses »
Let your sorrows travel away on the wind, your joys ride on the clouds and your love mingle with the sunbeams. RJG

Wilkins Micawber

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #137 on: December 04, 2019, 11:32:08 AM »
And as already quoted she has said she didn't consent. And when you say it isn't victim blaming, it's precisely the same type of victim blaming which attacks those assaulted didn't fight enough. She was a 21 year old woman who describes the shock and the fact that he seemed so strong. But on you go with your antediluvian misogyny.
No-one knows for certain who either of them were, so "she" must be one of the many claimants, and apparently there was a lot of this going on between strangers.
I didn't say she "didn't fight enough", nor did I imply it: if you'd actually read my fucking post properly, instead of jumping in with your usual self-righteous, virtue-signalling, humourless, puritanical bollocks, you'd have read that I said "why should she reisit, if she doesn't want to?" If two strangers want to have a quick snog on an occasion of general rejoicing, that's fine by me. I emphatically do not blame the woman for not resisting.
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ippy

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #138 on: December 04, 2019, 11:50:30 AM »
And your point is exactly?
The title of the sculpture is what it is - in this case 'Unconditional surrender' - that along with the sculpture itself will provoke a reaction amongst people who see it. I understand that people who know the context and background will recognise it to be a recreation of a photo and that 'Unconditional surrender' is probably meant to refer to the surrender of Japan on VJ day, although the title is much more oblique than the title of the photo 'VJ day in Times square'.

However as I've pointed out many, if not most, people wont know the context and there is nothing in the sculpture and its name which overtly links it to VJ day. Those people are likely to come to a different interpretation of its meaning based on the sculpture and its name alone.

In neither case is referring to the viewer as 'ill informed' appropriate. A piece of art shouldn't require the viewer to have delved into its background to understand and have a response to it. If it is likely to be misinterpreted without that background then it is the role of the artist and those responsible for its installation to provide background at the sculpture site to counter that misinterpretation.
Perhaps that is what the artist intended - a modern take on something that might once have been seen to be acceptable but now isn't. A rye and political message for our times. However looking at his other pieces I doubt this to be the case as this and his other pieces tend to err on the side of kitsch rather than political.

There's not much I can do if you're so determined to misrepresent my words and then argue with things you seem to think I have written that I haven't actually conveyed, so I'll leave it there with your good self Proff. 

Regards, ippy.

Littleroses

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #139 on: December 04, 2019, 11:52:18 AM »
No-one knows for certain who either of them were, so "she" must be one of the many claimants, and apparently there was a lot of this going on between strangers.
I didn't say she "didn't fight enough", nor did I imply it: if you'd actually read my fucking post properly, instead of jumping in with your usual self-righteous, virtue-signalling, humourless, puritanical bollocks, you'd have read that I said "why should she reisit, if she doesn't want to?" If two strangers want to have a quick snog on an occasion of general rejoicing, that's fine by me. I emphatically do not blame the woman for not resisting.

The photo gives the impression the woman didn't have the chance to resist because of  the angle at which the guy is holding her would make it difficult to push him away.
Let your sorrows travel away on the wind, your joys ride on the clouds and your love mingle with the sunbeams. RJG

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #140 on: December 04, 2019, 12:50:49 PM »
There's not much I can do if you're so determined to misrepresent my words and then argue with things you seem to think I have written that I haven't actually conveyed, so I'll leave it there with your good self Proff. 
How exactly am I misrepresenting you Ippy?

I might not agree with you and I may make my views clear, but that isn't the same as misrepresenting you.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #141 on: December 04, 2019, 12:53:25 PM »
No-one knows for certain who either of them were, so "she" must be one of the many claimants, and apparently there was a lot of this going on between strangers.
I didn't say she "didn't fight enough", nor did I imply it: if you'd actually read my fucking post properly, instead of jumping in with your usual self-righteous, virtue-signalling, humourless, puritanical bollocks, you'd have read that I said "why should she reisit, if she doesn't want to?" If two strangers want to have a quick snog on an occasion of general rejoicing, that's fine by me. I emphatically do not blame the woman for not resisting.
We don't know for certain but it's where the evidence points, and in dismissing her, you are then implying that's she was lying. Further when you mentioned earlier '(who doesn't appear to be putting up any resistance)' - why did you mention that without victim blaming. You really have an appalling attitude to the question of women and assault.

Gordon

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #142 on: December 04, 2019, 12:55:12 PM »
Perhaps the ethics of the original event have been overlooked: presumably the sailor-chappie had never read his Kant else surely he wouldn't have used this woman as just a means to an end: the end being his wish to express his emotions in a way that met his personal needs.

The subsequent statue is in poor taste.

Wilkins Micawber

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #143 on: December 04, 2019, 01:27:30 PM »
We don't know for certain but it's where the evidence points, and in dismissing her, you are then implying that's she was lying. Further when you mentioned earlier '(who doesn't appear to be putting up any resistance)' - why did you mention that without victim blaming. You really have an appalling attitude to the question of women and assault.
You have an appalling attitude... full stop. Go to hell.
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Christine

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #144 on: December 04, 2019, 01:46:40 PM »
I agree with Nearly Sane.  I can't understand why this statue has been made.  I hope, if it's sufficiently and appropriately vandalised, it might serve to remind people that their impulses are not an excuse for assault, whatever motivates them.



Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #145 on: December 04, 2019, 02:14:47 PM »
You have an appalling attitude... full stop. Go to hell.
Given you think that you can just dismiss  a woman as lying about sexual assault, then your advice about travel is not something I hold in high regard.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 03:04:43 PM by Nearly Sane »

Littleroses

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #146 on: December 04, 2019, 02:37:43 PM »
Perhaps the ethics of the original event have been overlooked: presumably the sailor-chappie had never read his Kant else surely he wouldn't have used this woman as just a means to an end: the end being his wish to express his emotions in a way that met his personal needs.

The subsequent statue is in poor taste.

Very poor taste. >:(
Let your sorrows travel away on the wind, your joys ride on the clouds and your love mingle with the sunbeams. RJG

ippy

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #147 on: December 04, 2019, 03:44:55 PM »
How exactly am I misrepresenting you Ippy?

I might not agree with you and I may make my views clear, but that isn't the same as misrepresenting you.

What would be the point?

Ippy

ekim

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #148 on: December 04, 2019, 03:58:59 PM »
I agree with Nearly Sane.  I can't understand why this statue has been made.  I hope, if it's sufficiently and appropriately vandalised, it might serve to remind people that their impulses are not an excuse for assault, whatever motivates them.

It looks like they both later enjoyed celebrity status ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-J_Day_in_Times_Square#/media/File:George_Mendonca_and_Greta_Friedman.jpg

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #149 on: December 04, 2019, 04:06:46 PM »
What would be the point?

Ippy
The point would be that you explain where I have misrepresented you because I am genuinely at a loss to see any misrepresentation (rather than disagreement) of your posts.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 04:46:12 PM by ProfessorDavey »