Author Topic: Unconditional surrender...?  (Read 2241 times)

Robbie

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2019, 06:35:52 PM »
LR //48. That's quite horrific.
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Littleroses

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2019, 06:42:42 PM »
LR //48. That's quite horrific.

But he was still permitted to be an Ofsted inspector! A few years down the line he was charged with sexually molesting one of the women teachers at a school he was inspecting. He managed to get off as there wasn't enough evidence to make the charge stick unfortunately. :o
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2019, 06:48:25 PM »
It wouldn't have been considered an assault at the time. Greta said the kiss was nonconsensual but she didn't say she was assaulted. She didn't press charges. For all we know, she enjoyed the moment. Why don't we stop getting offended on behalf of other people?
She doesn't look like she is enjoying it in the photo.

But that isn't the point - all sorts of things are captured in photos in the context of their time and place. And they become a historical record, even if the events they capture aren't something we'd approve of now, albeit accepted at the time. But we aren't discussing the photo and the real event - we are discussing the decision in recent times, with our current views on acceptability, to recreate that event in a sculpture. And that sculpture detaches the event from its context - no longer can you see all the other people round and about celebrating in Time Square. All that is left is a man aggressively kissing a woman who is entirely passive in her demeanour (not how she would be if she was actively enjoying it).

And then the sculpture of a man imposing himself on a woman is called 'Unconditional surrender'. The original photo wasn't called that - it was termed VJ Day in Time Square. The change of name seems to me to talk about the unequal nature of the interaction between the two people, not the war, as the context is entirely lost in the sculpture - that's what I find rather disturbing about the sculpture.

Robbie

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2019, 06:51:21 PM »
None of that really surprises me unfortunately.
there wasn't enough evidence to make the charge stick
I bet plenty would have liked to charge at him with a sharpened stick (not v good pun but best I can do right now).
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ippy

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2019, 07:33:34 PM »
It wouldn't have been considered an assault at the time. Greta said the kiss was nonconsensual but she didn't say she was assaulted. She didn't press charges. For all we know, she enjoyed the moment. Why don't we stop getting offended on behalf of other people?

Yes more or less my sentiments jp it was after all 1945 V J day of all days and my goodness aren't there some miserable people around today, It's not like he grabbed her and kissed her like that in some hidden away dingy place, his hands were not in any places on her that may have been considered improper.

Victory over Japan with all of the loss of life involved on those Pacific islands was absolutely horrific it's hardly surprising that any American at those times was just a tad pleased the war was finally over.


He was a serviceman and had every reason to be ecstatic about not having to go and fight any more suicidal Japanese soldiers and he acted on impulse on that occasion, like was said no charges were levelled, looks lovely to me and didn't look in the least out of place in those circumstances; grow up.

ippy

 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 07:40:01 PM by ippy »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2019, 07:44:10 PM »
Yes more or less my sentiments jp it was after all 1945 V J day of all days and my goodness aren't there some miserable people around today, It's not like he grabbed her and kissed her like that in some hidden away dingy place, his hands were not in any places on her that may have been considered improper.

Victory over Japan with all of the loss of life involved on those Pacific islands was absolutely horrific it's hardly surprising that any American at those times was just a tad pleased the war was finally over.


He was a serviceman and had every reason to be ecstatic about not having to go and fight any more suicidal Japanese soldiers and he acted on impulse on that occasion, like was said no charges were levelled, looks lovely to me and didn't look in the least out of place in those circumstances; grow up.

ippy
Which is why the photo and the sculpture are different - the photo is imbued entirely with context - the sculpture is entirely detached from that context.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2019, 07:50:45 PM »
Yes more or less my sentiments jp it was after all 1945 V J day of all days and my goodness aren't there some miserable people around today, It's not like he grabbed her and kissed her like that in some hidden away dingy place, his hands were not in any places on her that may have been considered improper.

Victory over Japan with all of the loss of life involved on those Pacific islands was absolutely horrific it's hardly surprising that any American at those times was just a tad pleased the war was finally over.


He was a serviceman and had every reason to be ecstatic about not having to go and fight any more suicidal Japanese soldiers and he acted on impulse on that occasion, like was said no charges were levelled, looks lovely to me and didn't look in the least out of place in those circumstances; grow up.

ippy
Yeah, grow up because assault against women is just fun.

ippy

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2019, 08:02:47 PM »
Which is why the photo and the sculpture are different - the photo is imbued entirely with context - the sculpture is entirely detached from that context.

And?

ippy.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2019, 08:04:07 PM »
And?

ippy.
And you think assault is ok

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2019, 08:06:01 PM »
And?

ippy.
And once you take it out of its context what you are left with is a sculpture called 'Unconditional Surrender" of a man imposing himself on an unwilling woman. If you cannot see why that is problematic then I think you need to think a little harder.

Robbie

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2019, 08:13:37 PM »
Prof D said:-  "...we are discussing the decision in recent times, with our current views on acceptability, to recreate that event in a sculpture. And that sculpture detaches the event from its context - no longer can you see all the other people round and about celebrating in Time Square. All that is left is a man aggressively kissing a woman who is entirely passive in her demeanour (not how she would be if she was actively enjoying it).

And then the sculpture of a man imposing himself on a woman is called 'Unconditional surrender'. The original photo wasn't called that - it was termed VJ Day in Time Square. The change of name seems to me to talk about the unequal nature of the interaction between the two people, not the war, as the context is entirely lost in the sculpture - that's what I find rather disturbing about the sculpture."

Yes it is & I wonder why the statue has been given prominence in so many places; it's blatant. I hope not a sign of going backwards.

In fairness to Ippy I think he has only really looked at the original photograph which on first glance looked to me like a musical chorus or two lovers reunited in a crowd of others.
The sculpture has totally different emphasis.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2019, 08:34:58 PM »
Prof D said:-  "...we are discussing the decision in recent times, with our current views on acceptability, to recreate that event in a sculpture. And that sculpture detaches the event from its context - no longer can you see all the other people round and about celebrating in Time Square. All that is left is a man aggressively kissing a woman who is entirely passive in her demeanour (not how she would be if she was actively enjoying it).

And then the sculpture of a man imposing himself on a woman is called 'Unconditional surrender'. The original photo wasn't called that - it was termed VJ Day in Time Square. The change of name seems to me to talk about the unequal nature of the interaction between the two people, not the war, as the context is entirely lost in the sculpture - that's what I find rather disturbing about the sculpture."

Yes it is & I wonder why the statue has been given prominence in so many places; it's blatant. I hope not a sign of going backwards.

In fairness to Ippy I think he has only really looked at the original photograph which on first glance looked to me like a musical chorus or two lovers reunited in a crowd of others.
The sculpture has totally different emphasis.
  So you are saying ippy hasn't read the stuff that has been posted and has just posted ignorantly?

Walter

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #62 on: November 29, 2019, 09:15:31 PM »
I was assaulted in a pub by a woman I didn't know from a bar of soap 
It was the strike of New Year and people were dancing and singing and drinking .
She kissed me , it was awful !

Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2019, 09:30:59 PM »
I was assaulted in a pub by a woman I didn't know from a bar of soap 
It was the strike of New Year and people were dancing and singing and drinking .
She kissed me , it was awful !
Ah another person justifying assault. Hur - Fecking - Rah

Robbie

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2019, 10:10:23 PM »
NS: So you are saying ippy hasn't read the stuff that has been posted and has just posted ignorantly?
.....
Can't think of any other explanation NS; ippy has never struck me as the sort of person who would approve of assault, seems like an average family man. We don't really know each other on here but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt (yes I know that can be a weakness, been told often enough). However he didn't seem to grasp the difference between the context of the original photograph and the sculpture.

Let's wait and see if he has anything else to say. I don't like talking about him really despite it was me who mentioned him in last post.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2019, 10:37:47 PM »
NS: So you are saying ippy hasn't read the stuff that has been posted and has just posted ignorantly?
.....
Can't think of any other explanation NS; ippy has never struck me as the sort of person who would approve of assault, seems like an average family man. We don't really know each other on here but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt (yes I know that can be a weakness, been told often enough). However he didn't seem to grasp the difference between the context of the original photograph and the sculpture.

Let's wait and see if he has anything else to say. I don't like talking about him really despite it was me who mentioned him in last post.

It's just the logic of your post.

Wilkins Micawber

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2019, 10:41:37 PM »
How would she have pressed charges? She has expressed that it was non consensual. Perhaps you need to stop justifying the assault.
Perhaps you need to get down from your moral high horse, and get a sens of proportion.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2019, 10:45:03 PM »
Perhaps you need to get down from your moral high horse, and get a sens of proportion.
  A sense of proportion being supporting assault on women, it appears.

Walter

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2019, 10:55:28 PM »
Ah another person justifying assault. Hur - Fecking - Rah
being you must be a Fecking nightmare of confusion

Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2019, 10:57:21 PM »
being you must be a Fecking nightmare of confusion
Of course. Doesn't mean that supporting the assault of women is right though.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2019, 11:02:12 PM »
  A sense of proportion being supporting assault on women, it appears.
I don't think anyone here is actually supporting assaulting women.

I think the difficulty lies in the challenge of context - once the context of VJ day and Times Square with all sorts of other people celebrating (in other words the photo) is removed, what we are left with is a man forcing himself onto a woman who is clearly not, in any way, an equal participant (which is obvious from the original photo and confirmed from the woman involved). Add to that the title and we have something deeply disturbing. I suspect the sculpture and some here (who know the photo) simply see is as a 3D sculpture version of the photo - but many, many people will see the sculpture only, and will not know either the photo or the context (the name has erase the notion of the end of WW2) - put yourself into their minds for a moment.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 11:05:07 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Wilkins Micawber

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2019, 11:07:22 PM »
I did say in my first post on this thread that what he did wasn't right, and he'd be in trouble nowadays, but there's quite a difference between kissing a young woman (who doesn't appear to be putting up any resistance) on an occasion of general celebration and gaiety, and out-and-out rape, which NS doesn't seem to appreciate.
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Walter

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2019, 11:24:58 PM »
Of course. Doesn't mean that supporting the assault of women is right though.
saney

Don't worry dear, everything's going to be alright 😘

Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2019, 11:32:56 PM »
I did say in my first post on this thread that what he did wasn't right, and he'd be in trouble nowadays, but there's quite a difference between kissing a young woman (who doesn't appear to be putting up any resistance) on an occasion of general celebration and gaiety, and out-and-out rape, which NS doesn't seem to appreciate.
Ah the 'she didn't about protest enough' victim blaming beloved of apologists of sexual assault of women.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Unconditional surrender...?
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2019, 11:33:48 PM »
saney

Don't worry dear, everything's going to be alright 😘
It really isn't if people justify sexual assault.