Unconditional surrender...?

[Nearly Sane]

Your "and" logicslly implies that you agree thast you ARE being pompous and self-righteous.

If it makes you happy to think that on you go. You probably think that the woman shouldn't have said anything and was being 'hyper-confessional.'

[Robbie]

Of course strictly speaking he was wrong to do it (if it really was the two people mentioned in the wiki article), nobody has the right to grab and kiss another without their consent. It's also ridiculous to say she didn't object, it probably took her quite by surprise and was all over in no time. She didn't know what hit her! However I doubt she was scarred for life tho' that isn't the point.

Bit late now for anyone to moan about it but I'm surprised it's considered suitable to be a statue in a prominent place, hope that doesn't indicate society is sliding backwards.

[Nearly Sane]

Of course strictly speaking he was wrong to do it (if it really was the two people mentioned in the wiki article), nobody has the right to grab and kiss another without their consent. It's also ridiculous to say she didn't object, it probably took her quite by surprise and was all over in no time. She didn't know what hit her! However I doubt she was scarred for life tho' that isn't the point.

Bit late now for anyone to moan about it but I'm surprised it's considered suitable to be a statue in a prominent place, hope that doesn't indicate society is sliding backwards.

I think the details of it may well not have been known. I hadn't known it had been made into a statue or that it had been non consensual till this thread.

[Roses]

Any bloke who kissed me without my permission would have my foot connecting with their nether regions.

[ProfessorDavey]

The link is broken because the forum's automatic link parsing is omitting the final ")". Try this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_Surrender_(sculpture)

The original photo clearly iconic, but the sculpture, in my opinion, is a bit creepy and rubbish (and that's without the back story).

I'm with NS on this one - I'd never through the photo looked to be two people in a mutual embrace, she seems completely passive and so it would seem as it wasn't wanted nor consensual on her part.

[Sriram]

By the photographer Alfred Eisenstaedt.....

"In Times Square on V.J. Day I saw a sailor running along the street grabbing any and every girl in sight. Whether she was a grandmother, stout, thin, old, didn't make a difference. I was running ahead of him with my Leica looking back over my shoulder but none of the pictures that were possible pleased me. Then suddenly, in a flash, I saw something white being grabbed. I turned around and clicked the moment the sailor kissed the nurse."

Clearly the sailor had gone 'bonkers' because of the victory over Japan....

[Gordon]

It seems reasonable to me that we reevaluate events as attitudes change, and while this photograph and statue once seemed to be perhaps joyfully innocent and iconic now seems inappropriate: this seems no different to reevaluating, say, TV programmes that were once popular but are now more or less toxic - like 'Love Thy Neighbour', which even UK Gold doesn't touch. 

[ProfessorDavey]

It seems reasonable to me that we reevaluate events as attitudes change, and while this photograph and statue once seemed to be perhaps joyfully innocent and iconic now seems inappropriate: this seems no different to reevaluating, say, TV programmes that were once popular but are now more or less toxic - like 'Love Thy Neighbour', which even UK Gold doesn't touch.

I agree

And there are a couple of other features of the sculpture which are disconcerting at the least.

The first is that in the sculpture, as opposed to the photo, the two people are completely alone. In the photo there are all sorts of other people in the background, so the context is clear. In the sculpture there is no context just a man all over a woman.

Secondly the title - again with context 'Unconditional surrender' would apply to VJ - but without context it speak to me that the unconditional surrender is her to him - and that doesn't sit well.

[Udayana]

By the photographer Alfred Eisenstaedt.....

"In Times Square on V.J. Day I saw a sailor running along the street grabbing any and every girl in sight. Whether she was a grandmother, stout, thin, old, didn't make a difference. I was running ahead of him with my Leica looking back over my shoulder but none of the pictures that were possible pleased me. Then suddenly, in a flash, I saw something white being grabbed. I turned around and clicked the moment the sailor kissed the nurse."

Clearly the sailor had gone 'bonkers' because of the victory over Japan....

It is a great photo, statues not that interesting. It seems obvious that one can't "consent" to a strangers spontaneous assault. These days hopefully he would be stopped earlier in his rampage - but wars don't end in the way that they did then.

[Nearly Sane]

It is a great photo, statues not that interesting. It seems obvious that one can't "consent" to a strangers spontaneous assault. These days hopefully he would be stopped earlier in his rampage - but wars don't end in the way that they did then.

And also the idea that because Greta Zimmer Friedman  'doesn't appear to be struggling' is a piece of victim blaming.

[Steve H]

If it makes you happy to think that on you go. You probably think that the woman shouldn't have said anything and was being 'hyper-confessional.'

The woman didn't say anything - no-one knows for surew who she was.

[Steve H]

It seems reasonable to me that we reevaluate events as attitudes change, and while this photograph and statue once seemed to be perhaps joyfully innocent and iconic now seems inappropriate: this seems no different to reevaluating, say, TV programmes that were once popular but are now more or less toxic - like 'Love Thy Neighbour', which even UK Gold doesn't touch.

Your post reveals the hyper-sensitivity and determination to be offended of many nowadays: 'Love Thy Neighbour' was a rubbish sitcom, but it was, like the BBC's much better ''Till Death Us Do Part', also anathema to programmers nowadays, anti-racist: The bigotted white bloke was portrayed as an idiot, and his black neighbour as much cleverer and wittier and more likeable, and who always got the better of the white bloke in arguments. It was taking the piss out of racists and racism, as was TDUDP.

[Nearly Sane]

Your post reveals the hyper-sensitivity and determination to be offended of many nowadays: 'Love Thy Neighbour' was a rubbish sitcom, but it was, like the BBC's much better ''Till Death Us Do Part', also anathema to programmers nowadays, anti-racist: The bigotted white bloke was portrayed as an idiot, and his black neighbour as much cleverer and wittier and more likeable, and who always got the better of the white bloke in arguments. It was taking the piss out of racists and racism, as was TDUDP.

Yeah, why get offended at assault - it's an obvious time to lighten up, and tell women to ignore being assaulted as it's just a boit of banter.

[Nearly Sane]

The woman didn't say anything - no-one knows for surew who she was.

First bit of your post isn't true  "it wasn't my choice to be kissed. The guy just came over and kissed or grabbed." "I did not see him approaching, and before I know it I was in this tight grip," Friedman told CBS News in 2012. Second bit then doubles down by implying that she was lying. You really have a problem with women objecting to assault, don't you.

[Roses]

From time in memorial some men, not all by any means, have thought the female of the species has been created for their delectation and delight, to do with as they wish, in the past they got away with it. NO MORE!

[ippy]

The crucial bit in the link seems to be

 'The widely agreed-upon identity of the female subject in the photo, dental assistant Greta Zimmer Friedman, had also explicitly stated that the kiss in question was not a consensual act.' Hence the #MeToo issues

Not that you would, but you could say 'Zimmer was framed'.

ippy.

[ippy]

His future wife Rita was also present with him. What came over him to suddenly grab a stranger and kiss her that way...is difficult to say. 

Many #Metoo supporters are having a field day on this....writing graffiti on the statue and stuff like that.....

Haven't you ever felt the sheer joy of the day Sriram and don't forget there's no special upset in the U S A, generally in the west if all you're doing is kissing a woman out on the street especially on a day like V J day of all times.

Regards, ippy.

[Nearly Sane]

Haven't you ever felt the sheer joy of the day Sriram and don't forget there's no special upset in the U S A, generally in the west if all you're doing is kissing a woman out on the street especially on a day like V J day of all times.

Regards, ippy.

Even if it's assault?

[Roses]

Haven't you ever felt the sheer joy of the day Sriram and don't forget there's no special upset in the U S A, generally in the west if all you're doing is kissing a woman out on the street especially on a day like V J day of all times.

Regards, ippy.

You wouldn't kiss a guy, unless you were gay, for sheer joy, so why kiss a woman?

[Gordon]

Your post reveals the hyper-sensitivity and determination to be offended of many nowadays: 'Love Thy Neighbour' was a rubbish sitcom, but it was, like the BBC's much better ''Till Death Us Do Part', also anathema to programmers nowadays, anti-racist: The bigotted white bloke was portrayed as an idiot, and his black neighbour as much cleverer and wittier and more likeable, and who always got the better of the white bloke in arguments. It was taking the piss out of racists and racism, as was TDUDP.

I'd agree about the merits, or otherwise, of these two programmes but that isn't my point, especially since I didn't mention TDUDP.

My point is simply that social attitudes change over time and that what once might have seemed socially acceptable may have contained elements that might nowadays be seen as, say, taking advantage of others: in this case the lady who it seems was an unconsenting co-opted kissee.

[Robbie]

Any bloke who kissed me without my permission would have my foot connecting with their nether regions.

  good for you.

It wasn't until I read the detils that I realised they were 'real', they looked like actors posing, perhaps even people in a musical who dance around. That behaviour wouldn't be tolerated now & no man would dare try it. I doubt he meant any harm but it's right that we object because so many women and girls have been cornered and groped over the years. Strikes me in the past that was considered normal behaviour, expected even, which is so wrong.

[jeremyp]

It wasn't a different time in terms of consent. And do you think being reprieved is a pass on the idea of consent?

It was a time in which going round kissing people wasn't considered to be an evil crime. And yes, finding out you have  future does give you a bit of latitude.

[jeremyp]

Yeah, why get offended at assault - it's an obvious time to lighten up, and tell women to ignore being assaulted as it's just a boit of banter.

It wouldn't have been considered an assault at the time. Greta said the kiss was nonconsensual but she didn't say she was assaulted. She didn't press charges. For all we know, she enjoyed the moment. Why don't we stop getting offended on behalf of other people?

[Roses]

good for you.

It wasn't until I read the detils that I realised they were 'real', they looked like actors posing, perhaps even people in a musical who dance around. That behaviour wouldn't be tolerated now & no man would dare try it. I doubt he meant any harm but it's right that we object because so many women and girls have been cornered and groped over the years. Strikes me in the past that was considered normal behaviour, expected even, which is so wrong.

It was considered normal for a man to squeeze a woman's breast or her bottom. A guy squeezed our eldest daughter's breast in our home in front of my husband and I when she was only 15. She told him she would kill him if he ever did it again. He paid for that and other actions, not long after that occurrence. I discovered he had in all probability been sexually abusing his primary school age children of whom he had custody after his wife left him for another man. I got the social services involved and they were removed PDQ and given back to the mother.

[Nearly Sane]

It wouldn't have been considered an assault at the time. Greta said the kiss was nonconsensual but she didn't say she was assaulted. She didn't press charges. For all we know, she enjoyed the moment. Why don't we stop getting offended on behalf of other people?

How would she have pressed charges? She has expressed that it was non consensual. Perhaps you need to stop justifying the assault.