Author Topic: Post Covid 19 beliefs  (Read 1300 times)

ekim

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #150 on: May 22, 2020, 10:36:51 AM »
Your experience here is so interesting to me. The Evangelical world, from which I've freed myself, would have explained this exact same thing as Satan, which you have somehow, unknowingly, allowed in.  I'm not sure which is more difficult psychologically to endure?  Past ancestors are the fault, or something you have no idea of how is the fault.  Seems to me either one is just as difficult for mental health.

It could be said that if your mental health was impaired by the Evangelical world then Satan was working through that world and you have freed yourself from his clutches.  From the karmic point of view, you have freed yourself from the repetition that will impinge upon your mental condition in a future life.  But as Bramble said 'choose your beliefs with care' and I would add - don't become attached to them'.  They are still only beliefs.

Littleroses

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #151 on: May 22, 2020, 11:32:36 AM »
Your experience here is so interesting to me. The Evangelical world, from which I've freed myself, would have explained this exact same thing as Satan, which you have somehow, unknowingly, allowed in.  I'm not sure which is more difficult psychologically to endure?  Past ancestors are the fault, or something you have no idea of how is the fault.  Seems to me either one is just as difficult for mental health.

I agree. The extreme Christian Pentecostal dogma, which spoilt my childhood, can cause mental health problems. I have suffered from anxiety syndrome since I was a child.
Let your sorrows travel away on the wind, your joys ride on the clouds and your love mingle with the sunbeams. RJG

Bramble

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #152 on: May 22, 2020, 04:07:59 PM »
Your experience here is so interesting to me. The Evangelical world, from which I've freed myself, would have explained this exact same thing as Satan, which you have somehow, unknowingly, allowed in.  I'm not sure which is more difficult psychologically to endure?  Past ancestors are the fault, or something you have no idea of how is the fault.  Seems to me either one is just as difficult for mental health.

There's something worryingly grandiose about having to invoke Satan or karma to explain a simple case of the 'flu, I think, when putting it down to a virus would suffice. Why must some folk embed every last detail of their lives in a cosmic moral drama? Is it the fear of insignificance? 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #153 on: May 22, 2020, 04:21:59 PM »
There's something worryingly grandiose about having to invoke Satan or karma to explain a simple case of the 'flu, I think, when putting it down to a virus would suffice. Why must some folk embed every last detail of their lives in a cosmic moral drama? Is it the fear of insignificance?
The thing is though if you believe the omni god, this has to be all part of the plan. This is not only the best of all possible worlds for the Calvinists, it's the only possible world.


ETA - and even for some of those who think their god is limited in some way, like Alan Burns, their god is capable of being interested in finding their contact lens.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 04:29:20 PM by Nearly Sane »

Sriram

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #154 on: May 22, 2020, 04:42:47 PM »
There's something worryingly grandiose about having to invoke Satan or karma to explain a simple case of the 'flu, I think, when putting it down to a virus would suffice. Why must some folk embed every last detail of their lives in a cosmic moral drama? Is it the fear of insignificance?


No one denies that the virus causes illness. The question is why one person and not another?  We can explain it away as 'luck'.....which is a chance factor. But believers in God and spirituality do not believe in chance factors. Everything has a purpose. 

Littleroses

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #155 on: May 22, 2020, 04:47:07 PM »

No one denies that the virus causes illness. The question is why one person and not another?  We can explain it away as 'luck'.....which is a chance factor. But believers in God and spirituality do not believe in chance factors. Everything has a purpose.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm!
Let your sorrows travel away on the wind, your joys ride on the clouds and your love mingle with the sunbeams. RJG

Nearly Sane

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #156 on: May 22, 2020, 04:51:55 PM »

No one denies that the virus causes illness. The question is why one person and not another?  We can explain it away as 'luck'.....which is a chance factor. But believers in God and spirituality do not believe in chance factors. Everything has a purpose.
Which makes your 'god' a thug. It has chosen to nearly kill my friend and debilitate her severely. It can go take a flying fuck.

Trentvoyager

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #157 on: May 22, 2020, 04:57:49 PM »
Quote
No one denies that the virus causes illness. The question is why one person and not another?

By and large, not luck.

The medical and science community are well on their way to identifying risk factors, age being by far the greatest determining factor. Diabetes another. Obesity another. Heart disease another. Those are the reasons why it's one person and not another.

The reasons why people have those factors (apart from age which none of us can avoid if we live long enough) are either lifestyle choices, or medical conditions. I don't know whether its still being looked at but blood type appeared to play a part too. You really don't need to try and add some extra layer of God into this.
The unfamiliar is not the same as the improbable.

Bramble

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #158 on: May 22, 2020, 05:02:15 PM »

No one denies that the virus causes illness. The question is why one person and not another?  We can explain it away as 'luck'.....which is a chance factor. But believers in God and spirituality do not believe in chance factors. Everything has a purpose.

Can you not see how your 'purpose' diminishes everything? The universe isn't there to reflect our little compulsions.

Sriram

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #159 on: May 22, 2020, 05:04:45 PM »
By and large, not luck.

The medical and science community are well on their way to identifying risk factors, age being by far the greatest determining factor. Diabetes another. Obesity another. Heart disease another. Those are the reasons why it's one person and not another.

The reasons why people have those factors (apart from age which none of us can avoid if we live long enough) are either lifestyle choices, or medical conditions. I don't know whether its still being looked at but blood type appeared to play a part too. You really don't need to try and add some extra layer of God into this.


Its the same thing...!  Why is one person obese, diabetic, has heart problem...and not another? Why does one person have bad genes, epigenes, bad upbringing, no money etc. etc.?   Either Luck or Karma or God..... 

Sriram

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #160 on: May 22, 2020, 05:05:52 PM »
Can you not see how your 'purpose' diminishes everything? The universe isn't there to reflect our little compulsions.


What is it there for...according to you?!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #161 on: May 22, 2020, 05:09:33 PM »

What is it there for...according to you?!
Why does it have to be for anything?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #162 on: May 22, 2020, 05:28:15 PM »

Its the same thing...!  Why is one person obese, diabetic, has heart problem...and not another? Why does one person have bad genes, epigenes, bad upbringing, no money etc. etc.?   Either Luck or Karma or God.....
Why does one person have bad genes - well because they either inherited then or there was a mutation that occurred in the genes at some point due to the random errors that occur in DNA replication or due to the influence of external factors, for example radiation or chemical agents that can generate mutations.

Why does someone have bad upbringing - because their parents were poor at bringing them up and/or poor social circumstances.

etc etc etc.

Why on earth do you need to invoke luck or karma or god - certain for the latter two there is no evidence that they even exist. I on the other hand can clearly demonstrate the mechanisms that lead to 'bad genes' as you call it etc etc.

ekim

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #163 on: May 22, 2020, 05:29:18 PM »
There's something worryingly grandiose about having to invoke Satan or karma to explain a simple case of the 'flu, I think, when putting it down to a virus would suffice. Why must some folk embed every last detail of their lives in a cosmic moral drama? Is it the fear of insignificance?

It probably started thousands of years ago to explain the causes of good fortune and bad luck, and then, as usual, the canny few saw it as a means of controlling people and from that came the birth of mass marketing.  Once hooked, it is difficult to break free especially if those people who attempt it become ostracised or punished.  Pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, good karma and bad karma become strong motivators

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #164 on: May 22, 2020, 05:31:34 PM »
Can you not see how your 'purpose' diminishes everything? The universe isn't there to reflect our little compulsions.
Absolutely - the notion that the universe needs 'purpose' in terms that are achingly human-centric is not only diminishing, but also rather arrogant, implying humans are the be all and end all of everything. Guess what Sriram, the universe doesn't revolve around us.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #165 on: May 22, 2020, 05:35:27 PM »
It probably started thousands of years ago to explain the causes of good fortune and bad luck, and then, as usual, the canny few saw it as a means of controlling people and from that came the birth of mass marketing.  Once hooked, it is difficult to break free especially if those people who attempt it become ostracised or punished.  Pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, good karma and bad karma become strong motivators
Yup - that kind of sums it up really - hierarchical societies need something to keep the impoverished in check, something to force them to accept their pain and suffering, either through the promise of jam tomorrow (a paradise in the next world) or that their misfortune is their own fault through inherited guilt (whether reincarnation or original sin).

A truly, truly horrible ideology.

Sriram

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #166 on: May 23, 2020, 06:29:05 AM »


No...it has nothing to do with habit or ideology...  These are just easy, 'one size fits all', dismissive 'explanations'. Typically the attitude scientists  take towards areas that are beyond the scope of science.

Remember that life and death are still a mystery. No one can conclusively say what death really is.  We have thousands of NDE's in all cultures that explain death...if anyone is willing to listen...

Once we accept an after-life, purpose and meaning to life arise automatically.  Once purpose arises, the nature of morality and its mechanisms become important. Karma or God become obvious.   

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #167 on: May 23, 2020, 09:45:50 AM »
Remember that life and death are still a mystery. No one can conclusively say what death really is.  We have thousands of NDE's in all cultures that explain death...if anyone is willing to listen...
Err you seem terribly confused - if death is a mystery and no on can conclusively say what death really is, how exactly is death explained by NDEs - you are directly contradicting yourself.

Of course there is no evidence for life after death and we have significant evidence that NDEs are caused by physiological and neurological alterations in brain function. They do not 'explain death' they are part of the dying process.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 10:56:37 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Sriram

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #168 on: May 23, 2020, 10:46:31 AM »


Ok...thanks Prof D.

I am done here.

Cheers.

Sriram

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #169 on: May 23, 2020, 09:19:37 PM »

Ok...thanks Prof D.

I am done here.

Cheers.

Sriram
Hopefully popping off to acquaint yourself with some evidence on neuroscience - being ignorant of the evidence is never a good look, but even less so if when pointed out that you fail to gain a little knowledge and instead plough on with the same unevidenced guff.

See you later.

Sriram

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #170 on: May 24, 2020, 05:59:49 AM »


I had hoped that the experience with Covid 19 would have made at least some people contemplate their own impermanence, nature of death, nature of ultimate reality and so on....

Clearly certain mindsets don't change so easily.   :(

torridon

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #171 on: May 24, 2020, 06:40:58 AM »

I had hoped that the experience with Covid 19 would have made at least some people contemplate their own impermanence, nature of death, nature of ultimate reality and so on....

Clearly certain mindsets don't change so easily.   :(

Covid-19 hasn't revealed hitherto unknown insights into the nature of life and death.  It's a virus, viruses evolve, viruses can invade eukaryotic cells and can kill us in the worst cases.  There is nothing new in this, we've understood all this for centuries already.  Death and suffering are an inescapable consequence of life, again, nothing new in this.  Why should people change their understanding when there is no new evidence to warrant a change ? A brush with death might be a reality check inducing a change in attitudes or values but that does not equate to casting aside clarity of thought or abandoning intellectual integrity. Better to face adversity with dignity and honour rather than crumble and succumb to some or other woo just because it sems to offer solace in a time of hardship.

Sriram

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #172 on: May 24, 2020, 07:46:26 AM »
Covid-19 hasn't revealed hitherto unknown insights into the nature of life and death.  It's a virus, viruses evolve, viruses can invade eukaryotic cells and can kill us in the worst cases.  There is nothing new in this, we've understood all this for centuries already.  Death and suffering are an inescapable consequence of life, again, nothing new in this.  Why should people change their understanding when there is no new evidence to warrant a change ? A brush with death might be a reality check inducing a change in attitudes or values but that does not equate to casting aside clarity of thought or abandoning intellectual integrity. Better to face adversity with dignity and honour rather than crumble and succumb to some or other woo just because it sems to offer solace in a time of hardship.


 :D

Let me clarify. Adversity and coming face to face with our impermanence, can reduce our Ego and sense of self importance dramatically. This can trigger our ability to see beyond our physical existence. It can open up the mind to deeper insights.

Its not about weakness or seeking solace. Its about an awakening.

I do realize that it doesn't happen to everyone. 

torridon

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #173 on: May 24, 2020, 08:36:30 AM »

 :D

Let me clarify. Adversity and coming face to face with our impermanence, can reduce our Ego and sense of self importance dramatically. This can trigger our ability to see beyond our physical existence. It can open up the mind to deeper insights.

Its not about weakness or seeking solace. Its about an awakening.

I do realize that it doesn't happen to everyone.

I don't see that reducing one's ego is particularly relevant.  If there is something 'beyond our physical existence', then there needs to be some evidence and rationale for that for it to be convincing.  Covid-19 hasn't provided any such thing, it has only provided more evidence as if any were needed that people die when they die. Clearly people miss their dearly departed and would love to think they can be reunited somehow , somewhere, but to entertain such ideas in the absence of evidence is mere delusion brought on by allowing emotions to supervene over reasoning.  To seek truth requires a dispassionate mind.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Post Covid 19 beliefs
« Reply #174 on: May 24, 2020, 09:49:37 AM »

 :D

Let me clarify. Adversity and coming face to face with our impermanence, can reduce our Ego and sense of self importance dramatically. This can trigger our ability to see beyond our physical existence. It can open up the mind to deeper insights.

Its not about weakness or seeking solace. Its about an awakening.

I do realize that it doesn't happen to everyone.
Sriram - the problem with your posts is you step from the reasonable to into the realms of fancy - and you have only one message in that world of fancy.

So of course people (including me) have re-evaluated our lives and what is important and not important in those lives. We've recognised thing that we might have taken for granted but now miss greatly, we've reacquanted ourselves with things that we once enjoyed but had forgotten about, we've (bizarrely) connected with people more in lockdown than we did when we could just visit them etc etc etc.

All fine, reasonable and true.

But then you stray into the mumbo-jumbo of Ego (with a capital E - what's that all about :o), 'see beyond our physical existence', 'nature of ultimate reality' etc, etc - emphatically no - the world is the same as it always was, we have had our lives turned upside down by the virus (but we will recover from this and guess what it will be science not spiritualism that get's us beyond this), we are all reassessing our lives in various ways, but no that doesn't mean we've come to think that god, religion, spiritualism, Ego (with a capital E) are anything other than unevidenced non-sense.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 09:58:23 AM by ProfessorDavey »