Author Topic: Rental e-scooters to be made legal on roads in Great Britain from Saturday  (Read 9310 times)

Steve H

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This is a wind-up, right?
No, it's a reply to Little "I don't like it so it should be banned" Roses.
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Owlswing

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I'm sure that, like all intelligent people, you believe in evidence-based legislation, so how about providing some statistical evidence to back up your assertions?


Maybe you should provide some statistical evidence to the contrary?
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Aruntraveller

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Maybe you should provide some statistical evidence to the contrary?

If I'm not mistaken he has in the past. I can't remember how valid it was though. At the time I remember thinking it was one of those counter intuitive situations that crop up in life.
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Roses

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Not long ago I nearly had a collision with a cyclist who was wearing dark clothing and no helmet or decent cycle light. The headlights of cars concealed him, I was not the only driver to blast my horn at the idiot.
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Steve H

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I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Steve H

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Not long ago I nearly had a collision with a cyclist who was wearing dark clothing and no helmet or decent cycle light. The headlights of cars concealed him, I was not the only driver to blast my horn at the idiot.
Lights at night are rightly obligatory. I would go along with recommending hi-viz jackets at night, but not compulsion. His lack of a helmet is irrelevant. Finally, this is anecdotal evidence, which proves nothing.
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Owlswing

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https://mayerhillman.com/1992/06/01/the-cycle-helmet-friend-or-foe/
http://www.psi.org.uk/pdf/2013/Cycle%20Helmets.pdf
https://www.cyclinguk.org/campaign/cycle-helmets-evidence

On the other side, to prove I'm not cherry-picking: http://john-adams.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/Risk%20Compensation%20and%20the%20cycle%20helmet%20debate.pdf


Two of your examples seem to have the same intro almost word for word and the third is by a group which states it is anti before any other comment.

On the point of results, I remember a comment by my tutor in College Economics class - there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Truly I find that statistics can be manipulated to say exactly what the author, or a supporter, wants them to say.

However, I would have to suggest, regardless of the studies you quote, that being hit on the head with a motor vehicle without a helmet is unlikely to be serious-injury-free.

   
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Steve H

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I would have to suggest, regardless of the studies you quote, that being hit on the head with a motor vehicle without a helmet is unlikely to be serious-injury-free.

 
It's also extremely rare. It would only happen in a head-on collision, with the cyclist going over the handlebars. In most collisions between a car a a cyclist, both are able to take some avoiding action, and the result is a side-swipe, with the cyclist falling off sideways, and suffering injuries to the arm and leg. As I said earlier, anecdotes are no use as evidence, but nevertheless, here's mine: I've been cycling for about 60 years, and put in a fairly high annual mileage, but I have never suffered a head injury, even a minor one, while cycling on roads, not even in my one serious accident, in 2014. Head injuries are very rare in road cycling (off-road mountain-biking is another matter.)
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Roses

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Head injuries when people are not wearing helmets are not rare at all. Even if they were, surely it is better to be safe rather than sorry, I cannot work out Steve's objection to helmets.
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Outrider

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Head injuries when people are not wearing helmets are not rare at all. Even if they were, surely it is better to be safe rather than sorry, I cannot work out Steve's objection to helmets.

The 'science' tends to work like this:

There is evidence that a helmet can reduce the level of injury arising from a relatively low-impact blow to the head, such as falling from bike onto the floor.  Depending on the specifics of the helmet design and the impact angle, however, there is a small chance of an increase in the level of injury, which increases further if the impact is not on a flat surface (such as the road) but on something angled (such as the lip of a car bonnet, or the edge of a kerb).  Overall, though, a helmet appears to be generally of benefit as protection in the event that a low-level impact occurs.

For higher strength impacts there is very little evidence that wearing a helmet makes any overall difference to injury severity or rates.

There is evidence to show that other road users give less space to cyclists wearing helmets, and cyclists wearing helmets are prone to take more risks as a result of the sense of protection they derive from having the helmet, and so the likelihood of a low-impact injury is increased.

Different individual research examples put slightly different rates for all of these findings, and as such the extent of the error bars on any judgement is such that there's no clear evidence of which is more or less safe.

For children, where drivers are more likely to give adequate space and the mass of the rider makes a lower impact collision more likely, it's a little clearer that wearing a helmet is overall of benefit, but it's far from crystal clear even in those instances.

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Owlswing

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There is no accounting for stupidity.

If you are less careful because you have a helmet it is not the helmet's fault if you suffer a fractured skull!

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Robbie

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Owlswing:-  -that being hit on the head with a motor vehicle without a helmet is unlikely to be serious-injury-free.

I never knew motor vehicles wore helmets!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn’t evidence, nonetheless here’s an anecdote for what it’s worth. About five years ago our three regular cycling buddies were sometimes wearing helmets and sometime not. On this occasion we were, and one of us was slightly behind when he must have clipped the wheel in front and shot over his handlebars, landing squarely on his head. He was dazed for a while, but ok after a bit. The point though was that his helmet saved him – it had dispersed the energy around his head rather than allowed the road a single point of contact, and in the process it had split virtually its whole length. We’re convinced that, but for his helmet, Mike would have had a cracked skull or worse.

Make of that what you will, but all three of us have routinely worn helmets ever since.

As for e-scooters, I thought one of the arguments for accelerated legislation to legalise them was that it would lessen the burden on public transport, which seems like a good idea to me.
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Owlswing

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Owlswing:-  -that being hit on the head with a motor vehicle without a helmet is unlikely to be serious-injury-free.

I never knew motor vehicles wore helmets!

Ho Ho Ho - you should be on the stage - there's one leaving in twenty minutes!
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Owlswing

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As for e-scooters, I thought one of the arguments for accelerated legislation to legalise them was that it would lessen the burden on public transport, which seems like a good idea to me.


As long as they are restricted to the roads or cycle lanes - on an open pavement's with pedestrians they are bloody lethal. No consideration for anyone else, they are me first and fuck the rest of you if you can't get out of my way - tough! At least that is my experience in Hounslow.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

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On pavements? Damn right I am, especially after dark! No lights, no bell, dressed entirely in black and usually on a mobile phone as well!
You are ranting against something that isn’t at issue. The new rules will not make it legal to ride an eScooter or even a bicycle on the pavement.

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Robbie

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Ho Ho Ho - you should be on the stage - there's one leaving in twenty minutes!

Drat, I missed it  ;).
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Aruntraveller

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You are ranting against something that isn’t at issue. The new rules will not make it legal to ride an eScooter or even a bicycle on the pavement.

I suppose a concern is (for me at least) that it doesn't stop some cyclists riding on pavements without any repercussions as far as I can see. (And before Steve gets all defensive I know it's a minority but it does happen)

So why would escooters be any different?

I appreciate that is a matter of enforcement but for a lot of people particularly the elderly and blind it is very a real consideration.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Owlswing

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I suppose a concern is (for me at least) that it doesn't stop some cyclists riding on pavements without any repercussions as far as I can see. (And before Steve gets all defensive I know it's a minority but it does happen)

So why would escooters be any different?

I appreciate that is a matter of enforcement but for a lot of people particularly the elderly and blind it is very a real consideration.

And the young - even holding Mum or Dad's they can still take a clip from a scooter rider. 
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An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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I suppose a concern is (for me at least) that it doesn't stop some cyclists riding on pavements without any repercussions as far as I can see. (And before Steve gets all defensive I know it's a minority but it does happen)

So why would escooters be any different?

I appreciate that is a matter of enforcement but for a lot of people particularly the elderly and blind it is very a real consideration.
We are back at that argument applying to cars.

Nearly Sane

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And the young - even holding Mum or Dad's they can still take a clip from a scooter rider.
Or a car being illegally run on the pavement.

Aruntraveller

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We are back at that argument applying to cars.

Not really.

Cars don't regularly use the pavement outside our property (for regularly you can insert "never in my experience" if you so wish).

Bicycles do.

What I am trying to convey is that cars very rarely use pavements intentionally. Bicycles do all the time. But maybe that's just Nottingham and Worthing but I doubt it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:22:49 PM by Trentvoyager »
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Nearly Sane

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Not really.

Cars don't regularly use the pavement outside our property (for regularly you can insert "never in my experience" if you so wish).

Bicycles do.

What I am trying to convey is that cars very rarely use pavements intentionally. Bicycles do all the time. But maybe that's just Nottingham and Worthing but I doubt it.
But no eScooter is allowed to do so. So by allowing them on the road and saying why would they be any different grom bikes, then why would they be any different from cars?

Steve H

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Head injuries when people are not wearing helmets are not rare at all. Even if they were, surely it is better to be safe rather than sorry, I cannot work out Steve's objection to helmets.
I don't object to helmets: if people want to wear them, I've got no objection. I object to their being made compulsory.
I take it you have some reliable statistics to back up your assertion that cycling head injuries are not rare. Please share them with us.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 11:44:55 PM by Constable Dogberry »
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Owlswing

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Not really.

Cars don't regularly use the pavement outside our property (for regularly you can insert "never in my experience" if you so wish).

Bicycles do.

What I am trying to convey is that cars very rarely use pavements intentionally. Bicycles do all the time. But maybe that's just Nottingham and Worthing but I doubt it.

Hayes, Hounslow, Uxbridge, Middlesex, Ealing in West London, Slough, Bath,  to name just a few places where it is a common occurrence to see bikes at speed on the pavements- it might be easier, in the long run, to try and name a place where cyclists do not use the pavements!

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!