Arming the Ukrainians

[Spud]

Ukraine wasn't shelling Donetsk or Lugansk before Russians invaded it, nor was there any indication that they would.

If that is true then please explain why these elderly people from near the city of Donetsk say (on 3 February 2022) they've been living in a bomb shelter for nearly 8 years.
https://youtu.be/-brDwwkHUdw?si=ywZ2xltYfWMtIDLx

[ad_orientem]

If that is true then please explain why these elderly people from near the city of Donetsk say (on 3 February 2022) they've been living in a bomb shelter for nearly 8 years.
https://youtu.be/-brDwwkHUdw?si=ywZ2xltYfWMtIDLx

Ah! Patrick Lancaster, the proven liar. We've gone through this before. Also, many of these people were crisis actors.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/07/14/victims-of-donbas-genocide-were-paid-actors-prigozhins-fired-trolls-reveal/

This is what really happened:

https://x.com/5G_Reptilian/status/1736224061121040788?s=19

[Maeght]

If that is true then please explain why these elderly people from near the city of Donetsk say (on 3 February 2022) they've been living in a bomb shelter for nearly 8 years.
https://youtu.be/-brDwwkHUdw?si=ywZ2xltYfWMtIDLx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Lancaster

[Outrider]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Lancaster

Arguably the most telling piece of this is: "Lancaster has often appeared on Alex Jones' InfoWars show."...

Is any further comment necessary?

O.

[Spud]

Ah! Patrick Lancaster, the proven liar. We've gone through this before. Also, many of these people were crisis actors.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/07/14/victims-of-donbas-genocide-were-paid-actors-prigozhins-fired-trolls-reveal/

This is what really happened:

https://x.com/5G_Reptilian/status/1736224061121040788?s=19

If you look at his YouTube channel, he has a lot of videos showing the aftermaths of shelling of residential areas in Donbass, between 2014-22. It doesn't  make sense to say that these were carried out by Russia or separatists. Or that they were staged.

[Outrider]

If you look at his YouTube channel, he has a lot of videos showing the aftermaths of shelling of residential areas in Donbass, between 2014-22.

He has videos of areas that appear to have been shelled - how confident are we that these areas are in Donbass?

It doesn't  make sense to say that these were carried out by Russia or separatists.

How does it not make sense? Your presumption here is that Russia would not repurpose damage that it has caused, deliberately or through incompetence - I'm not making that assumption.

Or that they were staged.

It's Russia. The potential that any given piece of evidence is staged is always a consideration. It's almost as though, and I think this might have been mentioned before, but RUSSIA LIES. PUTIN LIES.

O.

[Spud]

I know some posts have been lost recently, but I thought it might be a good time to ask whether you think Ukraine should agree to Russian peace terms now?

[Outrider]

I know some posts have been lost recently, but I thought it might be a good time to ask whether you think Ukraine should agree to Russian peace terms now?

No. Putin doesn't want peace, he wants Ukraine. If he's offering peace, it's a prelude to a rearmamanent and a new offensive under a different excuse in a few years time. Ukraine needs to hold out until reliable allies are in place and sanctions bring Russia to the table because they have to be there, not because it suits them. Unfortunately Trump's likely dropping of sanctions will extend that timetable.

O.

[Roses]

No. Putin doesn't want peace, he wants Ukraine. If he's offering peace, it's a prelude to a rearmamanent and a new offensive under a different excuse in a few years time. Ukraine needs to hold out until reliable allies are in place and sanctions bring Russia to the table because they have to be there, not because it suits them. Unfortunately Trump's likely dropping of sanctions will extend that timetable.

O.

I agree.

[Spud]

No. Putin doesn't want peace, he wants Ukraine.

Would it be more accurate to say that he wants a pro-Russian regime in Ukraine?

[Maeght]

Would it be more accurate to say that he wants a pro-Russian regime in Ukraine?

A puppet regime in Ukraine.

[Spud]

A puppet regime in Ukraine.

According to Russia's conditions: "the neutral, non-aligned, non-nuclear status of Ukraine, its demilitarization and denazification". Does that make it a puppet regime?

[Maeght]

According to Russia's conditions: "the neutral, non-aligned, non-nuclear status of Ukraine, its demilitarization and denazification". Does that make it a puppet regime?

It is what they want to achieve IMHO. Remember a puppet state is one whose government 'appears independent but is effectively directed and influenced by an external power. This external power might exert control through military force, economic support, or 'political manipulation.'

[Spud]

It is what they want to achieve IMHO. Remember a puppet state is one whose government 'appears independent but is effectively directed and influenced by an external power. This external power might exert control through military force, economic support, or 'political manipulation.'

Indeed, so do you think Ukraine should continue fighting this war of attrition which they are likely to lose?

[Outrider]

According to Russia's conditions: "the neutral, non-aligned, non-nuclear status of Ukraine, its demilitarization and denazification". Does that make it a puppet regime?

Russia's short-term plan might be those conditions, there's every indication - given, of course, that this is the second time he's invaded Ukraine, following serial invasions of numerous other territories - that his long-term goal remains the eradication of the Ukrainian nation and the integration of the people and territories into a broader Russia.

O.

[Maeght]

Indeed, so do you think Ukraine should continue fighting this war of attrition which they are likely to lose?

I don't know. I don't think Russia should benefit from an illegal invasion and think that will encourage Russia to look at other independent nations on its border., but the loss of life is tragic. If the Ukrainians want to continue fighting then they should be supported in my view and Russia needs to be defeated in its attempts at re-establishing a sphere of influence. I would of course prefer a negotiated settlement which guarantees a peaceful future and then on going independence of states neighbouring but don't believe Russia/Putin would stick to any such agreement and would need to be confronted at some point in the future.

[ad_orientem]

Indeed, so do you think Ukraine should continue fighting this war of attrition which they are likely to lose?

Likely to lose? Not by any means. At it's current rate, it would take russia almost a hundred years.

[Spud]

I don't know. I don't think Russia should benefit from an illegal invasion and think that will encourage Russia to look at other independent nations on its border., but the loss of life is tragic. If the Ukrainians want to continue fighting then they should be supported in my view and Russia needs to be defeated in its attempts at re-establishing a sphere of influence. I would of course prefer a negotiated settlement which guarantees a peaceful future and then on going independence of states neighbouring but don't believe Russia/Putin would stick to any such agreement and would need to be confronted at some point in the future.

I think Russia will not invade other countries, unless it is attacked first, and then only to create buffer zones.

Likely to lose? Not by any means. At it's current rate, it would take russia almost a hundred years.

Its goal of demilitarizing Ukraine, to eliminate the perceived threat, would mean completely defeating its army, in other words killing so many that it can no longer function. That's the only way they can win, and they intend to do it, from what I've seen.

[Maeght]

I think Russia will not invade other countries, unless it is attacked first, and then only to create buffer zones.

Don't agree.

[Outrider]

I think Russia will not invade other countries, unless it is attacked first, and then only to create buffer zones.

Based in the well established pattern of the last thirty years of Russia periodically invading neighbouring countries - why would you think their pattern would suddenly change now?

Its goal of demilitarizing Ukraine, to eliminate the perceived threat, would mean completely defeating its army, in other words killing so many that it can no longer function. That's the only way they can win, and they intend to do it, from what I've seen.

You keep falling for Putin's bullshit that they see Ukraine as military threat. They see Ukraine's nestling up to the EU as a political threat, because it secures another nation against their attempts to expand their sphere of influence. There is not, and never has been, a threat of invasion from the West into Russia - if for no other reason than no-one wants anything to do with the foetid corruption that mires the entire place from top to bottom. NATO doesn't want to invade Russia. Ukraine doesn't want to invade Russia. Some Polish people want to burn Russia to the ground and piss on the embers, but as a nation they have no political intention to invade Russia. Nobody else in Eastern or Western Europe wants to invade Russia. Possibly - I'm not as au fait with the political mood there - China may be interested in reclaiming some of the territory on their northern border that was historically theirs.

O.

O.

[Spud]

Based in the well
....

Hope you feel better for getting that off your chest, O. Let's take your claim that there was no coup, first. Well it was very violent, whatever it was, and a lot of people obviously didn't want to be ruled by that kind of mob.

[Aruntraveller]

Hope you feel better for getting that off your chest, O. Let's take your claim that there was no coup, first. Well it was very violent, whatever it was, and a lot of people obviously didn't want to be ruled by that kind of mob.

For goodness sake, what the fuck are you not getting. Russia is a corrupt regime that invades other countries for no other reason than the fact that they can. You make yourself sound supremely stupid every time you post.

[ad_orientem]

Some Polish people want to burn Russia to the ground and piss on the embers

Ahem! Not only Poles.

[Outrider]

Hope you feel better for getting that off your chest, O. Let's take your claim that there was no coup, first. Well it was very violent, whatever it was, and a lot of people obviously didn't want to be ruled by that kind of mob.

Yes, let's go over ground that we've established. There was civil unrest, there was an impeachment, the civil unrest was quelled and calmed, and people went to the voting booth. None of that is a justification for a Russian invasion. It wasn't then, it wasn't when they went in to Crimea, it wasn't when they invaded a second time, and it wasn't on any of the numerous occasions you've tried to call it a coup since then.

Did you have a point, or are you just trying to avoid having to deal with the fact that Putin's invadery tendencies are a valid reason for not trusting his peace overtures at this point?

O.

[Spud]

Yes, let's go over ground that we've established. There was civil unrest, there was an impeachment, the civil unrest was quelled and calmed, and people went to the voting booth. None of that is a justification for a Russian invasion. It wasn't then, it wasn't when they went in to Crimea, it wasn't when they invaded a second time, and it wasn't on any of the numerous occasions you've tried to call it a coup since then.

Did you have a point, or are you just trying to avoid having to deal with the fact that Putin's invadery tendencies are a valid reason for not trusting his peace overtures at this point?

O.

I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to by "There was civil unrest, there was an impeachment, the civil unrest was quelled and calmed, and people went to the voting booth."

My point was that a mob violently forced out the Ukrainian president who had the majority vote in the Donbas, and consequently many of those people decided to become autonomous rather than be ruled by the new government.
You've stated that the Minsk agreements were not satisfactory to Ukraine; this can only mean that they planned at some point to retake the Donbas. That's the ultimate goal for arming Ukraine. So unless that stops, Donbas will be under threat of invasion from Kiev.

This relates to your earlier point about Russia wanting all of Ukraine: the reason for this is that the only way Russia can stop the West sending them weapons is by occupying all of Ukraine.