Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 174017 times)

Sassy

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2325 on: May 12, 2025, 06:43:42 AM »
I know some posts have been lost recently, but I thought it might be a good time to ask whether you think Ukraine should agree to Russian peace terms now?

NEVER....Leaving the iceberg in charge of the Titanic spells disaster. The USSR should go home and stay home.
The Ukrainians should be allowed to remain the leader of their own country and Russia get their proverbial kicked.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2326 on: May 12, 2025, 09:34:07 AM »
I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to by "There was civil unrest, there was an impeachment, the civil unrest was quelled and calmed, and people went to the voting booth."

The Maidan uprising.

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My point was that a mob violently forced out the Ukrainian president who had the majority vote in the Donbas, and consequently many of those people decided to become autonomous rather than be ruled by the new government.

No. There were public demonstrations, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to impeach the President for his blatant reversal of his previous promises, at which point he fled to Russia. His impeachment later revealed large sums of Russian money he'd been recieving, if I recall.  The people then went to the voting booth and elected new leadership. No coup - civil unrest, yes, but no coup.

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You've stated that the Minsk agreements were not satisfactory to Ukraine; this can only mean that they planned at some point to retake the Donbas. That's the ultimate goal for arming Ukraine. So unless that stops, Donbas will be under threat of invasion from Kiev.

Liberation, not invasion. It's Ukrainian land and Ukrainian people, currently occupied by a hostile foreign force.

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This relates to your earlier point about Russia wanting all of Ukraine: the reason for this is that the only way Russia can stop the West sending them weapons is by occupying all of Ukraine.

The only reason the West is sending Ukraine weapons is to kick Russia out of Ukraine. If Russia fucks off back to Russia, no-one will be shooting at them.

O.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2327 on: May 12, 2025, 04:15:36 PM »
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2328 on: May 13, 2025, 04:05:52 PM »
The Maidan uprising.

No. There were public demonstrations, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to impeach the President for his blatant reversal of his previous promises, at which point he fled to Russia. His impeachment later revealed large sums of Russian money he'd been recieving, if I recall.  The people then went to the voting booth and elected new leadership. No coup - civil unrest, yes, but no coup.

Liberation, not invasion. It's Ukrainian land and Ukrainian people, currently occupied by a hostile foreign force.

The only reason the West is sending Ukraine weapons is to kick Russia out of Ukraine. If Russia fucks off back to Russia, no-one will be shooting at them.

O.
Whether or not you are right about the Maidan uprising, it was known from the time it was announced that Ukraine and Georgia would be invited to join NATO, that Russia would not allow it, and Yanukovich shelved plans for membership. This would be why Russia suported him. All Ukraine had to do to get Russia out of Ukraine was maintain neutrality. Now they have lost 5 regions, and the weapons sent by the West aren't pushing them back but making Ukraine weaker.  Not to mention that Russia is now closer to China, an unwelcome alliance from NATO's point of view.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2329 on: May 13, 2025, 04:12:38 PM »
Whether or not you are right about the Maidan uprising, it was known from the time it was announced that Ukraine and Georgia would be invited to join NATO, that Russia would not allow it, and Yanukovich shelved plans for membership.

It's not Russia's choice. Sure, they get to make a pitch, but rather than send messages to the Ukrainian people they sent Rubles to the Ukrainian president.

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This would be why Russia suported him.

The word you're looking for isn't 'supported' it's 'bribed'.

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All Ukraine had to do to get Russia out of Ukraine was maintain neutrality.

Russia weren't in Ukraine at the time. They decided the best way to keep Russia out of Ukraine was to have the support of NATO; turns out they were wrong, but neither option would justify Russia's invasion of a foreign country - you don't get to invade because you don't like someone else's decisions.

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Now they have lost 5 regions, and the weapons sent by the West aren't pushing them back but making Ukraine weaker.

They're not pushing Russia back at the moment - they have been, and they might again. Equally, Russia might run out of money, men and resources, it depends on which way Donald Trump's coin-flip lands at the moment. It's going to be a long three-year wait for Ukraine to get the backing of a US president with a spine.

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Not to mention that Russia is now closer to China, an unwelcome alliance from NATO's point of view.

NATO, currently, doesn't give a toss about Russia's lack of military capabilities, if China wants that liability it can have it.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2330 on: May 13, 2025, 08:32:44 PM »
It's not Russia's choice. Sure, they get to make a pitch, but rather than send messages to the Ukrainian people they sent Rubles to the Ukrainian president.

The word you're looking for isn't 'supported' it's 'bribed'.

Russia weren't in Ukraine at the time. They decided the best way to keep Russia out of Ukraine was to have the support of NATO; turns out they were wrong, but neither option would justify Russia's invasion of a foreign country - you don't get to invade because you don't like someone else's decisions.

They're not pushing Russia back at the moment - they have been, and they might again. Equally, Russia might run out of money, men and resources, it depends on which way Donald Trump's coin-flip lands at the moment. It's going to be a long three-year wait for Ukraine to get the backing of a US president with a spine.

NATO, currently, doesn't give a toss about Russia's lack of military capabilities, if China wants that liability it can have it.

O.
The fact remains that Russia will do whatever it takes to keep Ukraine out of NATO.  According to one Russian official whose name I didn't catch, this means they will have to kill the entire male population which is being sent against them. Trump is wise enough to avoid a direct US clash with Russia, so either Ukraine capitulates or it's attrition to the end.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2331 on: May 14, 2025, 08:59:46 PM »
The fact remains that Russia will do whatever it takes to keep Ukraine out of NATO.

Russia will run out of money, people, will at some point - it's now a question of whether Ukraine can kill them fast enough that that happens first.

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According to one Russian official whose name I didn't catch, this means they will have to kill the entire male population which is being sent against them.

Nobody is being 'sent against' Russia - they are defending themselves from Russian invasion.

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Trump is wise enough to avoid a direct US clash with Russia, so either Ukraine capitulates or it's attrition to the end.

Trump is not 'wise', Trump's grubbing for money - it's blatant self-interest, not some higher reasoning.

O.
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Roses

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2332 on: May 15, 2025, 11:52:14 AM »
Russia will run out of money, people, will at some point - it's now a question of whether Ukraine can kill them fast enough that that happens first.

Nobody is being 'sent against' Russia - they are defending themselves from Russian invasion.

Trump is not 'wise', Trump's grubbing for money - it's blatant self-interest, not some higher reasoning.

O.


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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2333 on: May 16, 2025, 07:36:58 AM »
Russia will run out of money, people, will at some point - it's now a question of whether Ukraine can kill them fast enough that that happens first.

Nobody is being 'sent against' Russia - they are defending themselves from Russian invasion.

Trump is not 'wise', Trump's grubbing for money - it's blatant self-interest, not some higher reasoning.

O.
Russian debt is $291 billion, US debt is 35 trillion and UK $2.8 trillion.

Russia has twice the male population of Ukraine.

Russia is gaining territory, so unlikely to run out of willpower.

How do you propose Ukraine kills them fast enough?

Sent or not, Ukraine can't win by attrition.

I think Trump has enough wisdom to avoid war with Russia.

Conclusion:  the US is not sending troops to replace Ukrainians, neither will Europe; except maybe mercenaries. Ukraine should cede the five regions, commit to neutrality and de-arm.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2334 on: May 16, 2025, 08:38:44 AM »
Russian debt is $291 billion, US debt is 35 trillion and UK $2.8 trillion.

Russia has twice the male population of Ukraine.

Russia is gaining territory, so unlikely to run out of willpower.

How do you propose Ukraine kills them fast enough?

Sent or not, Ukraine can't win by attrition.

I think Trump has enough wisdom to avoid war with Russia.

Conclusion:  the US is not sending troops to replace Ukrainians, neither will Europe; except maybe mercenaries. Ukraine should cede the five regions, commit to neutrality and de-arm.

Spud's peace plan: Please let russia genocide Ukraine in peace.

Ukraine certainly can win a war of attrition. It already is. The russian economy is in tatters. The only thing keeping it together is that it's a war economy. That's why they won't end the war they know they're losing. And they will have to end it eventually. My guess is it will be when they've run out of ethnic minorities and have to send actual moskols to the front.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2335 on: May 16, 2025, 09:30:51 AM »
Russian debt is $291 billion, US debt is 35 trillion and UK $2.8 trillion.

Russian GDP is a fraction of the US or UK, so the financial effect of the debt is more significant.

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Russia has twice the male population of Ukraine.

But they're hollowing out their productive young male population at a much faster rate, between battle-field deaths and men escaping the shit-hole conditions.

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Russia is gaining territory, so unlikely to run out of willpower.

Russia is losing men faster than it's gaining territory, and there is some evidence of a growing dissatisfaction with the price that's being paid. That evidence is weak at the moment, admittedly, but it's weak evidence against a background of state-controlled media and propogandised reporting.

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How do you propose Ukraine kills them fast enough?

More drones, more Western unmanned arms and armament - 21st century technology vs the 19th century meat-grinder mentality that Russia's employing. Ramping up the sanctions on Russia, and confiscating the assets currently on hold under sanction to sell off to pay for the armaments. I'd be happy to deploy Western forces directly - air support from NATO air-bases would be militarily decisive fairly quickly, although there would be political ramifications later regarding the explicit details of NATO's defensive nature.

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Sent or not, Ukraine can't win by attrition.

Assuming a 1 for 1 death rate, and that the determining factor is manpower, no, but as neither of those is the case it's not nearly as clear-cut as you make out. The deciding factor at the moment is the sanctions, and the possibility that Trump will break ranks and negotiate his own settlement with Russia, undermining the Western alliance and relieving the pressure on Russia.

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I think Trump has enough wisdom to avoid war with Russia.

Appeasing Russia is exactly the same 'wisdom' and Chamberlain's 'peace in our time' appeasement of Hitler. Putin has repeatedly demonstrated he's perfectly happy to reset, rearm and reinvade. 'Avoiding war' with Putin is not wisdom, it's short-sighted dipshittery of the highest order, it's throwing the lives already spent under the bus and telling Putin that this exactly the way to get what he wants at the expense of other people's lives.

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Conclusion:  the US is not sending troops to replace Ukrainians, neither will Europe; except maybe mercenaries. Ukraine should cede the five regions, commit to neutrality and de-arm.

And in ten years time Ukraine would cease to exist, millions of Ukrainian's would be in gulags or dead of extra-judicial 'accidents' and a hostile nation with a history of invasion would be on NATO and the EU's border, massively increasing the likelihood of a larger war in the future. The US is almost certainly not sending troops, and I wouldn't expect them to anyway, but especially with the orange twatwaffle in charge. But they can still sell the arms they have, especially now that Europe seems to be turning away from buying American arms and they need a new market - ironically, one of the things in Ukraine's favour right now is that the American military-industrial complex needs the war to continue for longer so they can make up in sales what they've lost to European markets because of Trump's vacillations undermining confidence in them as an ally.

The fastest way to end this, and head off future aggression, is to draw a solid line in the sand and tell Putin that unless he withdraws from Ukraine - all of Ukraine, including Crimea - by, say, the start of September, that NATO and/or the EU will consider it a clear and present threat and will deploy their own forces to drive him back. Putin needs not just to not get what he wants for his multiple invasions, but he needs to be shown that Europe is prepared to put bodies on the line, or he'll just come back in a few years time and try again, as he has done in the past.

O.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2336 on: May 17, 2025, 01:51:20 PM »
Russian GDP is a fraction of the US or UK, so the financial effect of the debt is more significant.
US debt to GDP ratio is 120%, Russia's is 20%.
Google says, "A low debt-to-GDP ratio generally indicates a healthy economy with a strong capacity to manage its financial obligations. A high ratio may raise concerns about a country's ability to repay debts and its overall economic stability."
So according to this statement, the US is in much more economic trouble han Russia?

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2337 on: May 18, 2025, 09:51:06 PM »
US debt to GDP ratio is 120%, Russia's is 20%.
Google says, "A low debt-to-GDP ratio generally indicates a healthy economy with a strong capacity to manage its financial obligations. A high ratio may raise concerns about a country's ability to repay debts and its overall economic stability."
So according to this statement, the US is in much more economic trouble than Russia?

No, that's one unhealthy marker amongst millions, and doesn't change the fact I stated that the US economy dwarfs the Russian one. Yes a low debt ratio is a good thing, but the reason Russia's debt is so low is that no-one will lend them anything because the corruption and piss-poor management means it'll never get paid back.

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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2338 on: May 19, 2025, 04:27:46 PM »
Appeasing Russia is exactly the same 'wisdom' and Chamberlain's 'peace in our time' appeasement of Hitler. Putin has repeatedly demonstrated he's perfectly happy to reset, rearm and reinvade. 'Avoiding war' with Putin is not wisdom, it's short-sighted dipshittery of the highest order, it's throwing the lives already spent under the bus and telling Putin that this exactly the way to get what he wants at the expense of other people's lives.
I meant that Trump is sensible enough to avoid a direct confrontation of the US with Russia.
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And in ten years time Ukraine would cease to exist, millions of Ukrainian's would be in gulags or dead of extra-judicial 'accidents' and a hostile nation with a history of invasion would be on NATO and the EU's border, massively increasing the likelihood of a larger war in the future. The US is almost certainly not sending troops, and I wouldn't expect them to anyway, but especially with the orange twatwaffle in charge. But they can still sell the arms they have, especially now that Europe seems to be turning away from buying American arms and they need a new market - ironically, one of the things in Ukraine's favour right now is that the American military-industrial complex needs the war to continue for longer so they can make up in sales what they've lost to European markets because of Trump's vacillations undermining confidence in them as an ally.
Interesting that NATO doesn't want Russia on its border. If neither NATO nor Russia wants the other on its border, then wouldn't the best way to achieve that be for Ukraine not to ally itself with either? As I said earlier, the expansion of NATO was not because of a direct threat from Russia, but to protect against a future (at the time) threat from it. But why did NATO expand up to Russia's border if it didn't want Russia on its border?  ???

From what you've said about the American military-industrial complex it sounds like that threat from Russia has been invented for the purpose of continuing its sales.

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The fastest way to end this, and head off future aggression, is to draw a solid line in the sand and tell Putin that unless he withdraws from Ukraine - all of Ukraine, including Crimea - by, say, the start of September, that NATO and/or the EU will consider it a clear and present threat and will deploy their own forces to drive him back. Putin needs not just to not get what he wants for his multiple invasions, but he needs to be shown that Europe is prepared to put bodies on the line, or he'll just come back in a few years time and try again, as he has done in the past.
Putin already offered to stay out of Ukraine as long as NATO stayed out of Ukraine. He asked for these guarantees in 2021, but they were refused. So the red line you are talking about was Russia's red line that NATO shouldn't cross, in the first place.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2339 on: May 19, 2025, 04:58:15 PM »
I meant that Trump is sensible enough to avoid a direct confrontation of the US with Russia.

I know what you meant. Taking it off the table at this stage isn't wisdom, it's capitulation to a bully and a tyrant.

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Interesting that NATO doesn't want Russia on its border.

Nobody wants Russia on their border, because Russia doesn't seem to understand what borders mean.

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If neither NATO nor Russia wants the other on its border, then wouldn't the best way to achieve that be for Ukraine not to ally itself with either?

Russia doesn't want NATO on its current border. It probably doesn't want NATO on the Ukrainian border it has as a short term goal, because it believes places like the Czech Republic, Slovak Republic and Poland should also be part of Russia.

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As I said earlier, the expansion of NATO was not because of a direct threat from Russia, but to protect against a future (at the time) threat from it. But why did NATO expand up to Russia's border if it didn't want Russia on its border?

Because some of the countries in the region wanted protection from an aggressively expansionist Russia.

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From what you've said about the American military-industrial complex it sounds like that threat from Russia has been invented for the purpose of continuing its sales.

Does it really? Do you think the people who were invaded twice in Chechnya feel that way? Do you think the people who were invaded in Moldova feel that way? Do you think the people who were invaded in Georgia think it's invented? Do you think the people who live in Crimea who are still under occupation think it's invented?

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Putin already offered to stay out of Ukraine as long as NATO stayed out of Ukraine.

It's not his decision who does or doesn't enter NATO.

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He asked for these guarantees in 2021, but they were refused.

No, he tried to dictate terms in 2021, whilst still illegally occupying a country seeking to defend itself.

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So the red line you are talking about was Russia's red line that NATO shouldn't cross, in the first place.

Russia has already obliterated dozens of red lines - you know, those international borders that he keeps sending troops across.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2340 on: May 21, 2025, 12:37:41 PM »
I know what you meant. Taking it off the table at this stage isn't wisdom, it's capitulation to a bully and a tyrant.
Inevitably Russia will defeat the Ukrainian army while suffering heavy losses. The US won't send a replacement army, neither will European countries. There is no guarantee that a future US president will. So why not avoid these losses and agree to Russia's peace terms? By the way, the side that is losing doesn't get to demand a ceasefire unless it agrees to the other side's terms, in this case withdrawing from the four regions and ending military aid.

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Nobody wants Russia on their border, because Russia doesn't seem to understand what borders mean.

Russia doesn't want NATO on its current border. It probably doesn't want NATO on the Ukrainian border it has as a short term goal, because it believes places like the Czech Republic, Slovak Republic and Poland should also be part of Russia.
Eh?

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Because some of the countries in the region wanted protection from an aggressively expansionist Russia.
Russia was not aggressively expansionist at the time when those countries joined NATO.

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Does it really? Do you think the people who were invaded twice in Chechnya feel that way? Do you think the people who were invaded in Moldova feel that way? Do you think the people who were invaded in Georgia think it's invented? Do you think the people who live in Crimea who are still under occupation think it's invented?

It's not his decision who does or doesn't enter NATO.
"No participating State will strengthen its security at the expense of the security of other States." - The Charter for European Security, 1999.

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No, he tried to dictate terms in 2021, whilst still illegally occupying a country seeking to defend itself.
Based on the above OSCE principle, the invasion, and those you have listed also, were preemptive because Russia's security was threatened, by NATO expansion and meddling.

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Russia has already obliterated dozens of red lines - you know, those international borders that he keeps sending troops across.

O.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2341 on: May 21, 2025, 01:14:22 PM »
Inevitably Russia will defeat the Ukrainian army while suffering heavy losses.

If it were that inevitable, it would have happened by now. Russian corruption and ineptitude is interfering at every level, and the resources they have left before that corruption skims off the top are becoming even more scarce.

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The US won't send a replacement army, neither will European countries.

Currently, the Ukrainians don't require an army, they require weapons - and we seem to be stepping up in that area. As time progresses, I'd agree it seems highly unlikely that the US will send troops should they be required, but the EU is building an armed response of its own, and it might decide that there's a need to show that's not just a paper tiger. I'm not saying it's likely or soon, but I can see a situation where that might happen.

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There is no guarantee that a future US president will.

But, equally, no guarantee that they won't, which puts pressure on Russia to try to achieve its goal soon. If - as seems quite possible - Trump's mismanagement of the US results in  a boost to the Democrats in the next election it's likely that the next President's administration will support Ukraine. If enough change is apparent at the midterms, next year, that might be enough to shift the sentiment in the US.

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So why not avoid these losses and agree to Russia's peace terms?

Because they don't want to lose more territory, they don't want their kidnapped children to be brought up in one of the scummiest countries on the planet, because living as third class citizens in a shit-hole like Russia seems like a worse prospect to them than dying on the battlefield. Russia doesn't want 'peace' it wants capitulation and subjugation.

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By the way, the side that is losing doesn't get to demand a ceasefire unless it agrees to the other side's terms, in this case withdrawing from the four regions and ending military aid.

Your assumption here is that Ukraine is losing - that's not apparent to anyone except you, apparently.

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Russia was not aggressively expansionist at the time when those countries joined NATO. "No participating State will strengthen its security at the expense of the security of other States." - The Charter for European Security, 1999.

Russian troops entered Chechnya (the second time) when Putin was took over as acting President - that was nothing to do with EU expansion, and years before the fifth - and largest - EU expansion. And, even if it was related, it's not Putin's business if two countries that aren't Russia want to agree to something. When it comes to the NATO expansions, the post-cold war expansions was a direct result of Russian hard-ball tactics at the time - Russia threatened repercussions if their former 'colonies' didn't toe the line, and so Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania and the rest all jumped into NATO. Russia was attempting to create, functionally, puppet nations around itself by threatening them into compliance.

EU expansion, entering into a free-market, free-movement, free-trade co-operative, does nothing to jeapordise Russian security, it jeapordises Russian ambitions at empire building. The countries that joined NATO did so not to compromise Russian security - which wasn't at risk - but to protect their own from imminent Russian aggression.

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Based on the above OSCE principle, the invasion, and those you have listed also, were preemptive because Russia's security was threatened, by NATO expansion and meddling.

How? That's always been the Russian stance, and it's bullshit. I find it hard to believe that they believe it, but even if they do their belief doesn't make it real. We don't need to surrender Ukraine because they don't understand, we need to explain it terms they will, and if those terms have to be put in writing alongside their formal concessions and withdrawal from the country they've invaded, so much the better.

O.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2342 on: May 21, 2025, 01:16:53 PM »
Inevitably Russia will defeat the Ukrainian army while suffering heavy losses. The US won't send a replacement army, neither will European countries. There is no guarantee that a future US president will. So why not avoid these losses and agree to Russia's peace terms? By the way, the side that is losing doesn't get to demand a ceasefire unless it agrees to the other side's terms, in this case withdrawing from the four regions and ending military aid.

All based on assumptions that have been clearly proven false over the past three years.

Btw, does russia have any working ICBM's? Perhaps now is the time to raize moscow and st petersburg to the ground.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-nuclear-icbm-yars-test-launch-2074163
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2343 on: May 26, 2025, 07:49:39 AM »
Such an easy war to end apparently


https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cvgpj038elyt
« Last Edit: May 26, 2025, 09:10:08 AM by Nearly Sane »

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2344 on: May 26, 2025, 09:19:53 AM »
Such an easy war to end apparently


https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cvgpj038elyt

And still The Orange Turd can't help having a go at Zelensky. He really is a POS.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2345 on: May 26, 2025, 10:17:25 AM »
Ukraine is also trying to hit Moscow, it launched around 1,000 drones in two days last week and managed to break through Russia's air defences. This would explain Russia's recent increase in attacks.

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2346 on: May 26, 2025, 10:24:10 AM »
Ukrainian is trying to defend itself, it was Russia which started the war! >:(
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2347 on: May 26, 2025, 11:07:30 AM »
Ukraine is also trying to hit Moscow, it launched around 1,000 drones in two days last week and managed to break through Russia's air defences. This would explain Russia's recent increase in attacks.

Moscow isn't being hit hard enough. Still, Ukraine targets oil refineries and the like. Russia targets apartment buildings.
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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2348 on: May 26, 2025, 02:28:20 PM »
Dear Thread,

Not our business, according to Russian newspapers.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgpj038elyt?post=asset%3A166664d9-f481-4c80-b96c-2180782a5e77#post

Gonnagle.
For the sake of my sanity I will now endeavour to aid Atheists in their thinking not do their thinking for them✝️✝️✝️

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2349 on: May 26, 2025, 03:36:41 PM »
Moscow isn't being hit hard enough. Still, Ukraine targets oil refineries and the like. Russia targets apartment buildings.
Were they targeting oil refineries over the last few days? They appear to have staggered their drone waves in order to overwhelm the layers of Russian air defence, one by one, each time getting closer to Moscow, which was the target.
While the drones didn't hit much of importance (correct me if I'm wrong), the Ukrainians demonstrated that they could hit targets in Moscow. That's why Russia has responded with such a massive strike. Their targets would probably have been sites on which drones were made, but MSM will use it to show Russia in a bad light.